'Plot to blow up planes' foiled

[BrownEyedBoy]

This is very serious stuff. Just goes to show how fragile life can be and how we shouldn´t take a single breath for granted.

 

[anitram]

What is the root cause of Islamic terrorism?

I don't know, but I don't think we can chalk it up entirely to living lives of poverty and government oppression. Essentially all of Africa lives under the same conditions, with even worse poverty and more corrupt, bloodthirsty "leaders" but we haven't seen Africans massively take to blowing up western interests, targetting western civilians, suicide bombing and so on. And it isn't as if they wouldn't have justification given the state of their post-colonial existence which the west is largely responsible for.

Why haven't the South Americans in the favelas taken to the same course of action? It's a valid question, no?

So I would say you're partially correct but there are other social, cultural and possibly religious (nobody wants to say this outloud it seems ) factors that influence Islamic terrorism that are absent in other poor areas of the world.

 

[Irvine511]

So I would say you're partially correct but there are other social, cultural and possibly religious (nobody wants to say this outloud it seems ) factors that influence Islamic terrorism that are absent in other poor areas of the world.

a sense of cultural and national humiliation. that's *huge*.

and let's come out and say it -- religion, and the potential in all religions, everywhere, to make the believer feel as if he is in the earth but not of it and that the only relationship that matters is his to God. it's amazingly solipsistic.

 

[anitram]

Also with religion, there is a real lack of secular education in the Middle East, and for a lot of the kids, the only thing they get at "school" is some more indoctrination. This is a huge, huge problem. Exclusively religious education is toxic, IMO.

 

[ntalwar]

Has any physical evidence been recovered?
I've only read about "plots" and "plans".

 

[BVS]

This now calls for armed secuirty to be on every single airplane taking off from every airport in the world.

How would this have stopped this plot?

 

[Numb1075]

it's more of a deterent.

but if they're ultimate goal is to die for their cause, then I don't see this deterent as working.

 

[INDY500]

Oh you guys and your "root causes." You completely forget that last years London bombers WERE ENGLISH (one was married with a child, one played cricket). As are today's suspects from early reports. That the four 9/11 pilots attended Western universities. 15 of the 19 came from well-to-do Saudi families. That the attacks of Al Queda and it's wannabe groups are not the work of impoverished, uneducated misfits but rather of relatively prosperous university graduates with technical degrees. Need I mention Osama bin Laden, the college educated son of a billionaire. Oh deary, what's his "root cause"?

The killing of ordinary citizens simply going about their business is not the result of poverty.
It's a deranged ideology in action.

 

[Irvine511]

Oh you guys and your "root causes." You completely forget that last years London bombers WERE ENGLISH (one was married with a child, one played cricket). As are today's suspects from early reports. That the four 9/11 pilots attended Western universities. 15 of the 19 came from well-to-do Saudi families. That the attacks of Al Queda and it's wannabe groups are not the work of impoverished, uneducated misfits but rather of relatively prosperous university graduates with technical degrees. Need I mention Osama bin Laden, the college educated son of a billionaire. Oh deary, what's his "root cause"?

The killing of ordinary citizens simply going about their business is not the result of poverty.
It's a deranged ideology in action.

yes. they're just bad people. kill them all.

you also misread Al-Qaeda -- their top brass, so to speak, is indeed western educated and sophisticated (you know, like Pol Pot), but most of their foot soldiers are angry young men from countries like Saudi Arabia.

again, it comes down to a sense of humiliation and religion.

 

[BVS]

it's more of a deterent.

but if they're ultimate goal is to die for their cause, then I don't see this deterent as working.

Did you read the article? The plot was to blow the plane with explosives, how the hell would this be a deterent?

It would just cause more problems having arms on a plane.

 

[BVS]

Oh you guys and your "root causes."

Yep, it's all part of the "white man's burden".

 

[Numb1075]

yes i read the article. Having armed police/military on a plan is supposed to be a deterent. I don't think that would work.

They have hundreds of armed police/military in the airports - will this stop someone from bombing a plane? No....but it's supposed to be a deterent, a method of scaring the idiots.

 

[silja]

Oh you guys and your "root causes." You completely forget that last years London bombers WERE ENGLISH (one was married with a child, one played cricket). As are today's suspects from early reports. That the four 9/11 pilots attended Western universities. 15 of the 19 came from well-to-do Saudi families. That the attacks of Al Queda and it's wannabe groups are not the work of impoverished, uneducated misfits but rather of relatively prosperous university graduates with technical degrees. Need I mention Osama bin Laden, the college educated son of a billionaire. Oh deary, what's his "root cause"?

The killing of ordinary citizens simply going about their business is not the result of poverty.
It's a deranged ideology in action.

We must ban cricket right away! It clearly leads to no good.

I’m not disputing that we’re talking about a ‘deranged ideology’ but that’s not the root cause. It is an important point though. The allure of Al-Qaeda has little to do with religion but is principally easy explanations and easily understood enemies using religion as veneer. It is a hate-based ideology and to label it ‘religion’ impedes understanding.

The question is what makes people follow such an ideology. That’s where the root cause is hiding.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think screening all cargo would be more effective than armed police and military.

 

[the rockin edge]

Stop being frightened. There will be another major terrorist attack at some point on western countries. Fortunately, they have been able to thwart this apparent conspiracy. You are more likely to die in a car crash or from a fall than as a victim of a terrorist attack.

exactly.

to Scotland Yard and whatever other agencies stopped this.





Sami, you'll be fine.

 

[silja]

I think screening all cargo would be more effective than armed poilce and military.

Except that supposedly happens already. Well, that's assuming that the security guards are doing their job.

 

[Numb1075]

I don't think they currently screen all bags.

 

[Irvine511]

The allure of Al-Qaeda has little to do with religion but is principally easy explanations and easily understood enemies using religion as veneer. It is a hate-based ideology and to label it ‘religion’ impedes understanding.

this i disagree with.

what religion gives someone is a reason to die, a way of detaching yourself from all others so you feel no empathy, no connection to the humanity of others.

of course, religion isn't the only possible thing that can spark thoughts of suicide-as-virtue, but it is certainly what is motivating Islamist terrorism. i can think of no more powerful a motivator than God. after all, you want to get to Paradise, don't you?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Except that supposedly happens already. Well, that's assuming that the security guards are doing their job.

It doesn't. Cargo on planes is not all screened- my local news said packages under 16 oz (they said either 16 or 32, not sure) are allowed in the cargo holds without being screened. Commercial cargo is transported sometimes on passenger planes, according to what I have heard and read. I'm talking about cargo, not passenger baggage. Ed Markey has been talking about this for ages and trying to get bills passed, with no success.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161870,00.html

(2005)WASHINGTON — While the nation has turned its attention to securing the American railways and transit systems in the wake of the London terror attacks on Thursday, persistent vulnerabilities threaten other U.S. transportation systems, say lawmakers.

Though it's been nearly four years since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks — an assault that used airplanes as missiles and prompted unprecedented screening for airport passengers — comparable screening of cargo that flies on commercial airlines remains elusive.

"It is unacceptable that freight stored in the cargo bay beneath passengers' feet is almost never inspected for bombs that could bring down the plane," Rep. Ed Markey (search), D-Mass., a member of the House Homeland Security Committee, said last month.

On Thursday, Markey said the London attacks should embolden U.S. lawmakers to get serious about plugging the holes in security — in all transportation areas.

"We must honor the memory of those who have been killed by our vigilance to protect democracy and prevent future attacks," he said in a statement.

Markey noted that Americans take public transportation 32 million times a day — 16 times more than they travel on domestic airlines. Nonetheless, since Sept. 11, 2001, Markey has been vigilant in pursuing efforts to close the "security loophole" that prevents cargo on passenger planes from being uniformly screened for explosives.

 

[silja]

this i disagree with.

what religion gives someone is a reason to die, a way of detaching yourself from all others so you feel no empathy, no connection to the humanity of others.

of course, religion isn't the only possible thing that can spark thoughts of suicide-as-virtue, but it is certainly what is motivating Islamist terrorism. i can think of no more powerful a motivator than God. after all, you want to get to Paradise, don't you?

No thank you. I leave Paradise to Christians and Muslims

I’m not so dumb as to suggest that religion is not a factor but if you look at the Al-Qaeda videos they are filled with blood and gore. They show you terrible injustices and clear enemies to lash out against… and then they tell you that if you are obedient to Allah and do His work you’ll be rewarded. A person who is predisposed to follow an us-against-them ideology and is receptive to such a religious command could fall for it – and yes for that person the selling point is religious faithfulness. But I think that the underlying causes are far more complex. Which is why I called it religious veneer. What I’m interested in is understanding what causes such a predisposition.

 

[Irvine511]

No thank you. I leave Paradise to Christians and Muslims

I’m not so dumb as to suggest that religion is not a factor but if you look at the Al-Qaeda videos they are filled with blood and gore. They show you terrible injustices and clear enemies to lash out against… and then they tell you that if you are obedient to Allah and do His work you’ll be rewarded. A person who is predisposed to follow an us-against-them ideology and is receptive to such a religious command could fall for it – and yes for that person the selling point is religious faithfulness. But I think that the underlying causes are far more complex. Which is why I called it religious veneer. What I’m interested in is understanding what causes such a predisposition.

i agree that it's a complex thing, you're absolutely right, but i also think that the suicidal impulse, in this situation, is very nearly impossible without religion. it's sort of the spark that lights the powderkeg.

 

[verte76]

This is scary. I'm glad they got the terrorists before they killed a whole slew of people.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Why Liquid Explosives May be al-Qaeda's Secret Weapon

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1225032,00.html?cnn=yes

"AP reports that a number of analysts are warning that the new types of threat may dictate a radical change in the security regime governing air travel, in which passengers may be required to subject themselves to substantially longer delays for pre-flight scrutiny. The potential to hide explosive components in everything from toothpaste and contact-lens solution to laptop computers and other personal electronic devices may also demand rules that make air travel even less comfortable than it currently is.

A passenger at Washington's National Airport Thursday morning described passengers crowding around the trashcans dumping anything that could be considered liquid, even toothpaste. But he passed unchecked through security with toothpaste and lotion in his hand luggage, showing the difficulties of enforcing tighter measures in a country with 700 million passengers a year.

The answer, say security experts, highlights the need for a security system based on sophisticated profiling: It may be more important for the security system to be geared towards detecting passengers with intent to do harm rather than relying on detecting the specific means they've chosen. Boston's Logan Airport is currently testing a version of profiling called the SPOT program, but it avoids the ethnic profiling that many security experts say, despite its objectionable political connotations, would have to be the focus of an effective system."

 

[netminder0]

I recently read something that makes a great deal of sense concerning the mindset of suicide bombers. I don't want to stereotype, but many suicide bombers are from Middle Eastern nations, and most are young men. In their cultures, they are forbidden from contact with women for much of their young lives. This, combined with the fact that they have raging libidos, causes them to blow themselves up in the name of Allah. Since the promise for the suicide bombers is direct passage to heaven, along with receiving 70 virgins once he gets there, many young, middle easterners (Muslims) embrace such an act. Plus the fact that they are being brainwashed and lied to.

I just feel really deeply for those people. They are being lied to, and they are living in a culture that they really cannot get out of. It just really sucks all around.

 

[trevster2k]

Are they going to start confiscating sneakers with gel soles like the Nike running shoes and the rest?

One day we will be all flying barefoot and sitting in our underwear..

Or maybe we should come up with airlines for light-skinned people and one for dark-skinned people, maybe that will speed things up.

 

[BVS]

netminder0's post

^Good reason for separation of church and state.

 

[sami0201]

Sami, you'll be fine.

Thanks

 

[netminder0]

Actually, that isn't the problem at all BonoVox. The problem lies with the fact that those countries embrace false ideas regarding who God is, and how to please him. They teach that Allah is pleased when they blow up 50 people that aren't Muslim. This is the root of the problem.

 

[BVS]

Actually, that isn't the problem at all BonoVox. The problem lies with the fact that those countries embrace false ideas regarding who God is, and how to please him. They teach that Allah is pleased when they blow up 50 people that aren't Muslim. This is the root of the problem.

Bullshit. There are many Muslims who have grown up in secular countries that haven't turned to terrorism.

My point was when there isn't separation of church and state the quality of education is decreased.

The lack of real education and unfavory environments makes these individuals prone to falling for these virgin myths.

 

[verte76]

Actually, that isn't the problem at all BonoVox. The problem lies with the fact that those countries embrace false ideas regarding who God is, and how to please him. They teach that Allah is pleased when they blow up 50 people that aren't Muslim. This is the root of the problem.

Actually, mainstream Islam teaches that suicide is a sin.