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Old 01-09-2008, 04:11 PM   #521
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I think we are pretty much assured that nothing on either side will be settled before Feb 5th.

My general feeling about last night is, 1- I've never seen the Republicans so split in my life. They can't decide which way to go. I think it's very possible they end up with 4 different winners in the first 5 primaries. Amazing. Fun to watch but they are subpar candidates. John McCain would be pretty formidable if he weren't 137 years old, did anybody see that speech last night? Embarassing.

2-The Democrats just need to kick Edwards and Richardson the fuck out. Look at NH vote count, Richardson had more than the final victory margin, yet has ZERO chance. Edwards has ZERO chance as well. All he's doing is his publicity campaign right now. A head to head between Obama and HIllary on Feb 5th will be Super Bowl worthy. Should be a lot of fun.


Last note, yes, the same media who is trying to pimp this Clinton victory as a comeback is the same media who was jerking off Obama for 5 straight days and burying Hillary. That's why Iowa can be so huge.

Now that the real big momentum swings are over (I'm guessing) that it's going to be on real issues and comparisons and it should be a real tight race. Fun to watch, two impressive candidates.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:03 PM   #522
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^^Yes, it's so exciting! I am thrilled so many people are finally paying attention and getting involved!
It's so great for this country either way!!
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:06 PM   #523
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2DMfan
I've never seen the Republicans so split in my life. They can't decide which way to go.
Apparently the Democrats can't either. They're equally divided.


Quote:
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John McCain would be pretty formidable if he weren't 137 years old, did anybody see that speech last night? Embarassing.
Alright, John McCain is not 137, and even if he was, he's got just as much energy as anyone in the race. His victory speech last night was amazing. Much better than anything I've heard Obama give thus far. If you think he's got no shot, just wait. You might be surprised.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:12 PM   #524
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His victory speech last night was amazing. Much better than anything I've heard Obama give thus far. If you think he's got no shot, just wait. You might be surprised.
Hell no. Obama is leaps and bounds ahead of any of the other candidates on either side in terms of speaking ability. His speeches thus far have been transcendent. And poetic. And inspiring.

And whether you admit it or not, McCain's age is a real issue. Right now his health seems to be fine and his energy level appears to be fine as well, but whether that will last over four, let alone eight, years is another matter entirely.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:29 PM   #525
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I am cynical about all politicians, I like and admire Senator Obama very much but I stand by what I said. I think it could be possible that gender trumps even race when we are talking about Presidential politics. It's not as acceptable anymore to be racist in that regard, but it is still far more acceptable to be sexist. Senator Obama is a man first and foremost as a candidate, not an African American man. Plenty of men have run for President, there's a proven history there. By no means am I downplaying racism or his experience of racism or what he could still experience, I would never do that.

We have come a long way baby but there are still gender issues at play here-you can merely read some posts in this forum to see that. I am not saying and would never say that it controls anything and everything and that Hillary can hang her hat on it for everything, but it is there all the same. There is still racism too-which I am more than willing to admit I don't see nearly as much regarding Senator Obama, mostly because of where I live.
My gut-level reaction is to agree with you. But there are an awful lot of intersecting and overlapping tensions involved in the Dem race this time around, and I'm just not sure this campaign season is ever going to work very well as a clearly instructive study in what you're describing. (For the record, I'm leaning towards Obama myself and have been for awhile, but I don't feel firmly supportive towards anyone just yet.) I can understand to a considerable extent the active resentment towards Hillary coming from some Democratic quarters, and more than once have found myself going, 'What was she thinking? By the time Bill Clinton finished his Presidency a lot of Democrats were highly soured on him too, that was very apparent in the 2000 race, and how could she not know the intimate connection to that Administration was going to be a serious liability for both her and the party, regardless of the overall approval of her as a Senator?' There does seem to be an unworthy sense of entitlement there, and it's not pretty (though she'd hardly be the first President to have that quality if elected). But...at the same time, the shrill and highly personal intensity of the dislike for her, the vehemence of the refusal to hear out people who wish to make the case for considering her on her own merits, coming from some quarters does give me pause. And to add insult to injury here, I think it goes without saying that any woman, period, wouldn't be able to pull off leveraging those epic JFK/RFK/MLK/etc. archetypes (and...psst!...reflected auras) that code so powerfully for 'hope' and 'change' and 'valor' because--no disrespect whatsoever to the deserved status of those men in our history--those resonances are inextricably bound up with their having been Great National Patriarchs. Of course, one counter to that is that most men couldn't pull it off either, that many have won elections with no appeal to it at all, and this is true. (Though irony of ironies, Bill Clinton sure benefited from that JFK/Elvis vibe, didn't he? So for him to slam Obama as a 'fairy tale' is downright funny.) But, being President is a very particular and peculiar kind of status. It isn't simply or even primarily about achieving some pinnacle of prestige and acumen; it's also about being 'The Face Of The Nation,' and to position yourself successfully within that narrative, you really do need to fall within a certain familiar prototypal range. An ever-expanding one, granted...but those changes sure do come slowly.

So, it's all very murky, all very undecided...and may well wind up being one of those races one's gut and one's brain are never going to fully agree on.
Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat
So why is gender affecting her and race not seemingly affecting Obama?
I think it's very questionable whether race isn't affecting him, though it certainly isn't much doing so in an ugly way (yet). This, too, is too murky to call, but I think deep may have had a point yesterday in questioning whether the overblown exclamations about Obama winning a 'white state' (as you point out, he's in fact much more likely to encounter the thus-implied obstacles in e.g. much 'blacker' VA) and sounding 'just like MLK' might not entail some measure of what are in truth decidedly less progressive sentiments.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:38 PM   #526
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The gender v. race thing doesn't surprise me. In our society, it's far more "acceptable" to be a sexist pig than a racist bigot. Even take FYM as a microcosm - there are things said here by certain posters about women, that if they were said or insinuated about blacks, I have no doubt we would not see them around. Posting pictures of witches on broomsticks, for example. Think of an equivalent black stereotype cartoon being posted by Obama and can you imagine the reaction?

So no, frankly it doesn't surprise me at all.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:55 PM   #527
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Can FYM endorse Obama?

We'd make headlines.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:58 PM   #528
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^^Good question! That would be awesome!
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:06 PM   #529
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
The gender v. race thing doesn't surprise me. In our society, it's far more "acceptable" to be a sexist pig than a racist bigot.
I will say, though, that I can remember having similarly uncomfortably mixed feelings about Jesse Jackson's run in 1988 (Bradley effect, anyone?). I did not ultimately see him as a strong candidate. But much of the criticism of him, including from the left, was unmistakably 'subtly' tinged with that undertone of 'Come on, he's black, what did you expect--of course he's not competent enough.' And yes I do still have my doubts whether we've progressed enough beyond that. It's just that this time there are not one, but two, potential 'trump cards' at play, as well as enough other weighty factors which have little or nothing to do with those, to make the whole thing near-impossible to parse.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:06 PM   #530
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What's with the Hillary win in NH???

O.K.
Why???
or should the real question be How???
How could ALL the polls be so completely wrong - it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How could Obama be over 10 points ahead in most polls hours before election and end up losing. Was it the last minute "woman vote"? Was it the "tearful moment"??
Was it voting machine fraud??? What the hell happened?
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:08 PM   #531
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
The gender v. race thing doesn't surprise me. In our society, it's far more "acceptable" to be a sexist pig than a racist bigot. Even take FYM as a microcosm - there are things said here by certain posters about women, that if they were said or insinuated about blacks, I have no doubt we would not see them around. Posting pictures of witches on broomsticks, for example. Think of an equivalent black stereotype cartoon being posted by Obama and can you imagine the reaction?

So no, frankly it doesn't surprise me at all.
You are right, it is more acceptable to be sexist than racist. But it does work both ways. It is acceptable to be sexist against both men and women, not just women.

In our society when asked: "Why do you want Hillary as President?" If someone says "We need a women President," or "It is about time we have a women President," these are acceptable answers and are sexist against men.

If if was Ron Paul vs. Hillary in the race and someone were to ask "Why do you want Ron Paul as President?" And if the answer would be "We need a man President," that person would be yelled at and would be called sexist and it would be very unacceptable.

So it is a double standard. But you are right, sexism is more acceptable than racism, but that includes sexism against men as well.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:13 PM   #532
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But sexism against men is incomparable to sexism against women, really. It's just so infrequent in comparison.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:15 PM   #533
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I don't know how frequent it is. But it does exist. Anybody who says they want Hillary to win because she is a women or that we need a women President is sexist.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:18 PM   #534
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It does exist, but it's not an issue like sexism against women is. It's much smaller than that.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:19 PM   #535
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I don't know how frequent it is. But it does exist. Anybody who says they want Hillary to win because she is a women or that we need a women President is sexist.
I don't think that is necessarily true.

As a woman, I would like to see a female president in my lifetime. I think when 50% (or more?) of the country is female, it is not unreasonable to want to see that glass ceiling broken. Likewise, I think it's unacceptable that ONE out of your NINE Supreme Court justices is a woman. Particularly given the strength of your law schools and that admissions have been skewing towards females for years now. The Canadian Supreme Court is not only headed by a woman, but is comprised nearly of half women.

I would want my daughters to look around and see that any position, political or otherwise, is open to them someday.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:20 PM   #536
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There are always going to be idiots who would vote for so-and-so for President simply and only because s/he happens to be female/black/from my denomination/from my home state/whatever. That's something entirely different from having a conditioned, and most likely less-than-fully-conscious, psychological barrier against ever voting for a woman/black man/Mormon/etc. to overcome.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:20 PM   #537
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/plz go back to the re-tooled FYM primaries.

I changed my vote from Dennis to Barack.

And in fact.

We have already endorsed Barack overwhelmingly~!!!

I am going to talk to Joel and Kim about writing a piece for the main page.

Barack and roll!
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:22 PM   #538
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It does exist, but it's not an issue like sexism against women is. It's much smaller than that.
But how can you say it is not an issue? You are basically saying it is not that important because it doesn't happen as often. It is an issue of course. Men are affected by it, so it is important and it is an issue and there is nothing wrong in making a point of it.

This is like saying that racism against Hispanics is not an issue like racism against African-Americans is, because it is much smaller. So what? No matter how smaller or bigger, if it exists why not talk about it? Hispanics are humans too, just like African-Americans are. Same way that men are humans too, just like women.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:23 PM   #539
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Apparently the Democrats can't either. They're equally divided.
But it's been down between two canidates the whole time for the Dems, the Republicans have been all over the place. You've switched, Diamond's changed 3 or 4 times, along with many others and the media.


Quote:
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Alright, John McCain is not 137, and even if he was, he's got just as much energy as anyone in the race. His victory speech last night was amazing. Much better than anything I've heard Obama give thus far.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:29 PM   #540
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Originally posted by 2861U2
Alright, John McCain is not 137, and even if he was, he's got just as much energy as anyone in the race. His victory speech last night was amazing. Much better than anything I've heard Obama give thus far. If you think he's got no shot, just wait. You might be surprised.
Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR


Hell no. Obama is leaps and bounds ahead of any of the other candidates on either side in terms of speaking ability. His speeches thus far have been transcendent. And poetic. And inspiring.

And whether you admit it or not, McCain's age is a real issue. Right now his health seems to be fine and his energy level appears to be fine as well, but whether that will last over four, let alone eight, years is another matter entirely.
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