MERGED--> all Jena 6 discussions

[Butterscotch]

If justice was to be done, no one would be rallying to 'free' six guys who viciously attacked another guy. Regardless of what he did, that is not okay. Two wrongs don't make it right. When Rodney King was beaten by police, people said no matter what he did, there was no excuse for five guys teaming up and beating one. Same goes for the Jena 6. Activists are calling it a 'fight', but six on one with one on the ground is not a fight but a beating in the Rodney King style. By taking this action the Jena 6 degraded themselves to the level of a lynch mob! So they became what they were against.

I noticed the evening news only said 'violence' broke out but never mentioned in so many words that the six 'vicitimized' black boys severely beat one white boy. I guess they were afraid of being called racist. Assuming the white boy did hang the nooses, and assuming he is an asshole, this does not excuse the actions of the Jena 6. If it was okay to beat people up for being a jerk I'm sure we all have someone we'd like to attack.

The charges have already been reduced, but these boys do not deserve to be made the victims and martyrs the nationwide crusade is turning them into. Jesse Jackson said 'get the boys out of jail and back in school.' Is this fair to other kids, black and white, sitting in jail or juvenile hall for similar crimes? They should do time for malicious wounding. If it's proven who hung the nooses, that person should be punished according to the law but not with a physical beating.

 

[BVS]

I haven't seen anyone rallying to free them, just for a fair charge.

 

[Sue DeNym]

If the Jena school board had taken that more seriously, expelled those white students as the principal orginally recommended, perhaps had them charged and sentenced to community service, met with the black students and parents when they wanted to talk last September, and definitely not blown it off as a harmless "prank," then quite likely the next several months would have unfolded very differently.

Toilet-papering the tree would've been a prank. Hanging nooses in the tree is a blatant threat. The kids who did that should've been punished.

The school board totally blew it. Then the DA shoots off his mouth. And now it's all blown up in their faces...frankly, I'm surprised it didn't end up much worse.

 

[AEON]

If justice was to be done, no one would be rallying to 'free' six guys who viciously attacked another guy. Regardless of what he did, that is not okay. Two wrongs don't make it right. When Rodney King was beaten by police, people said no matter what he did, there was no excuse for five guys teaming up and beating one. Same goes for the Jena 6. Activists are calling it a 'fight', but six on one with one on the ground is not a fight but a beating in the Rodney King style. By taking this action the Jena 6 degraded themselves to the level of a lynch mob! So they became what they were against.

I noticed the evening news only said 'violence' broke out but never mentioned in so many words that the six 'vicitimized' black boys severely beat one white boy. I guess they were afraid of being called racist. Assuming the white boy did hang the nooses, and assuming he is an asshole, this does not excuse the actions of the Jena 6. If it was okay to beat people up for being a jerk I'm sure we all have someone we'd like to attack.

The charges have already been reduced, but these boys do not deserve to be made the victims and martyrs the nationwide crusade is turning them into. Jesse Jackson said 'get the boys out of jail and back in school.' Is this fair to other kids, black and white, sitting in jail or juvenile hall for similar crimes? They should do time for malicious wounding. If it's proven who hung the nooses, that person should be punished according to the law but not with a physical beating.

This is a very good post. It sums up my thoughts exactly.

 

[BVS]

This is a very good post. It sums up my thoughts exactly.

Except the post is full of misconceptions...

 

[corianderstem]

I haven't seen anyone rallying to free them, just for a fair charge.

Well, the news was full of protestors chanting "Free the Jena 6," so I'm sure a lot of people do want them freed.

Try them for the crime committed, and try the white kids too. But I'm all for having the charges and sentences doled out fairly, to all involved.

A noose is a prank, and a fight is attempted murder? That's the unfairness of it.

 

[phillyfan26]

If justice was to be done, no one would be rallying to 'free' six guys who viciously attacked another guy. Regardless of what he did, that is not okay. Two wrongs don't make it right. When Rodney King was beaten by police, people said no matter what he did, there was no excuse for five guys teaming up and beating one. Same goes for the Jena 6. Activists are calling it a 'fight', but six on one with one on the ground is not a fight but a beating in the Rodney King style. By taking this action the Jena 6 degraded themselves to the level of a lynch mob! So they became what they were against.

I noticed the evening news only said 'violence' broke out but never mentioned in so many words that the six 'vicitimized' black boys severely beat one white boy. I guess they were afraid of being called racist. Assuming the white boy did hang the nooses, and assuming he is an asshole, this does not excuse the actions of the Jena 6. If it was okay to beat people up for being a jerk I'm sure we all have someone we'd like to attack.

The charges have already been reduced, but these boys do not deserve to be made the victims and martyrs the nationwide crusade is turning them into. Jesse Jackson said 'get the boys out of jail and back in school.' Is this fair to other kids, black and white, sitting in jail or juvenile hall for similar crimes? They should do time for malicious wounding. If it's proven who hung the nooses, that person should be punished according to the law but not with a physical beating.

I think people are more outraged about the problems leading up to it: the poor handling by the school, the poor handling by the DA, the terrible actions of the white kids involved, etc. But there's definitely reason to be mad about the charges too.

There had been other fights before this, yet this was the only one that led to charges anywhere near the magnitude. They're absolutely excessive in comparison. When was the last time you heard of a kid getting 10 months for a schoolyard fight?

Now, all I know about this came from a discussion in my social studies class, but from what I understand, the victim here was released from the hospital that day, and was not severely injured. Also, from what I understand, the reason that their charges were so large were because the used a shoe as a technicality to make it attempted murder.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, please, for I don't want to make statements that aren't correct. However, from the information I've gotten, there's serious issues with the whole situation from start to end, and a lot of people deserve to be facing scrutiny for their actions here.

 

[BVS]

Well, the news was full of protestors chanting "Free the Jena 6," so I'm sure a lot of people do want them freed.

Try them for the crime committed, and try the white kids too. But I'm all for having the charges and sentences doled out fairly, to all involved.

A noose is a prank, and a fight is attempted murder? That's the unfairness of it.

Well what I meant is I don't think anyone wants the free from any charge...

 

[corianderstem]

gotcha.

 

[redhotswami]

If justice was to be done, no one would be rallying to 'free' six guys who viciously attacked another guy. Regardless of what he did, that is not okay. Two wrongs don't make it right. When Rodney King was beaten by police, people said no matter what he did, there was no excuse for five guys teaming up and beating one. Same goes for the Jena 6. Activists are calling it a 'fight', but six on one with one on the ground is not a fight but a beating in the Rodney King style. By taking this action the Jena 6 degraded themselves to the level of a lynch mob! So they became what they were against.

I noticed the evening news only said 'violence' broke out but never mentioned in so many words that the six 'vicitimized' black boys severely beat one white boy. I guess they were afraid of being called racist. Assuming the white boy did hang the nooses, and assuming he is an asshole, this does not excuse the actions of the Jena 6. If it was okay to beat people up for being a jerk I'm sure we all have someone we'd like to attack.

The charges have already been reduced, but these boys do not deserve to be made the victims and martyrs the nationwide crusade is turning them into. Jesse Jackson said 'get the boys out of jail and back in school.' Is this fair to other kids, black and white, sitting in jail or juvenile hall for similar crimes? They should do time for malicious wounding. If it's proven who hung the nooses, that person should be punished according to the law but not with a physical beating.

How come you aren't throwing a fit for the black student that was beaten up for going to an all-white party? Don't you think those kids should've been charged? Doesn't it bother you at all that not a single white person has been charged in any of these series of events? And a 3-day suspension doesn't even come close.

 

[deep]

By taking this action the Jena 6 degraded themselves to the level of a lynch mob!

Lynch mob?

Is that right?

These guys didn't make it to the High School Ring party later that day.

 

[yolland]

When was the last time you heard of a kid getting 10 months for a schoolyard fight?

Not 10 months--80 years was the original maximum penalty! (Attempted second-degree murder + conspiracy to commit murder) Even with their present charges, the maximum penalty is 22.5 years. (Aggravated second-degree battery + conspiracy to commit battery)

Also, from what I understand, the reason that their charges were so large were because the used a shoe as a technicality to make it attempted murder.

Not exactly. The DA's novel argument that their shoes qualified as "deadly weapons" is the reasoning behind the present charge of aggravated second-degree battery (a felony, as opposed to non-aggravated battery which, regardless of degree, is a misdemeanor). The reasoning behind the "attempted second-degree murder" charge, I explained earlier in the thread:

(under LA law "perpetration of cruelty to juveniles" resulting in death, intentionally or not, can count as second-degree murder, and the DA applied that reasoning, even though the LA definition of "cruelty to juveniles" was clearly inappropriate for the situation and the application of "attempted" to that definition questionable at best).

And yes (not aimed at you here, philly), as unico said--compare that to the white student who got no charges for pulling a gun on the black students during a verbal argument, while meanwhile they were charged with theft and disturbing the peace for disarming him; the white man who received a misdemeanor simple battery charge for beating the black student at a party; the three white students who got no charges for the "innocent prank" of the noose incident...then here you have this other case with the difference that this time the victim got a minor concussion, and all of a sudden the appropriate charge is attempted second-degree murder? Because that is what all the controversy is about. Not whether knocking someone down and kicking them in the head is wrong. No shit--of course it's wrong, but that is NOT the point. If you are so deeply stuck in Dogged White Defensiveness Mode that you can't see that, then you are just as guilty of contributing to the broader social tensions surrounding this case as anyone trying to suggest that the Jena 6 defendants are angelic martyrs who never did a thing wrong. And comparing them to a lynch mob is sick, on a par with comparing some mean old schoolteacher who unjustly paddled you back in sixth grade to Heinrich Himmler.

( ^ Justin Barker, the white student/victim, shortly after the beating)


Yes, somehow they don't look quite the same.

 

[AEON]

I think we could all dig up pictures to invoke an emotional response. All races have been guilty of some pretty brutal crap.

 

[deep]

who is disputing that anyone is not guilty of their own actions

I am just calling out the bullshit
that the actions of the Jena six are comparable to the actions of a lynch mob

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Bottom line is-if the nooses were treated the way in which they should have been treated, odds are it would not have escalated to that point. Clearly appropriate action should have been taken (it is a hate crime, not a "prank"), and at the very least an open forum dialogue should have happened in that school in attempt to diffuse the tension. I'd say when you have a "white tree" you have serious issues with racism in your school. They didn't want to face that for whatever reasons. When you sweep that under the rug you end up with a rug that rots from the bottom up. It was started by the nooses but also by so many other underlying issues.

 

[Irvine511]

this does seem a good example of the logic behind hate crimes legislation.

those nooses in the tree didn't terrorize that individual student. it terrorized all black students at that school.

and we can extrapolate from there. and i still think hate crimes are inelegant, but this is what people are talking about.

 

[Butterscotch]

who is disputing that anyone is not guilty of their own actions

I am just calling out the bullshit
that the actions of the Jena six are comparable to the actions of a lynch mob

It's not bullshit. Six people attacking one. I meant it in a metaphorical way not literally of course I thought you could figure that out. A lynch mob takes the law into their own hands and attacks a person they want taken care of though it's illegal and wrong. The Jena 6 took the law into their own hands and attacked a person and it was wrong. Maybe 'gang bang' would be a better term, but it's basically the same thing. They were a hateful mob who attacked, injured and could have killed one individual.

If it's okay to do this to someone who 'terrorizes' you, then I'm sure many bullied kids in schools everywhere would love to beat the shit out of their tormentors. You can't do that in a civilized society, and if you do, you downgrade yourself to below the bully.

The biggest 'bullshit' here is defending these hoodlums as victims in need of support. They committed a criminal act and deserve to be treated as criminals. If others black or white have committed other acts they have not been charged with they too should be charged and punished, including the noose hangers. But letting these guys go free is a bad message, and will likely only set a precedent for many others in the future to claim to be a 'victim'.

Another thing, if being fed up with the bad treatment is a justification for their crimes, might as well excuse all kids who commit school shootings too.

 

[Butterscotch]

How come you aren't throwing a fit for the black student that was beaten up for going to an all-white party? Don't you think those kids should've been charged? Doesn't it bother you at all that not a single white person has been charged in any of these series of events? And a 3-day suspension doesn't even come close.

I didn't know about that. Yes those white kids should be charged. But that doesn't mean the Jena 6 should be set free. No thug, white or black should get away with their crime. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Varitek]

The probelms here, Butterscotch, are two fold:

1) The Jena 6 are being tried for a much higher crime than they deserve. I don't think anyone is saying that they did no wrong, just that they didn't do as much wrong as they are being tried on (by all-white, racist juries).

2) The Jena 6 as black students have faced unequal treatment compared to white students who committed similar crimes.

 

[dazzlingamy]

^ exactly. No one is saying the Jena six should be let out of jail and patted on the back - its just showing the inequlity of the "justice" system. If its for JUSTICE then why one rule for one and another for others.

Sure its digusting 6 kids beat up one kid. They should be charged with assualt, regardless of what he said or nooses in the tree. The nooses should definately have been dealt with harsher (i was no aware of total significance, so i change my early thoughts) if they are hate crimes they should be dealt like that. Unfortunately i think a lot of hate crimes are still no seen that way by a lot of people in power (race, sex, sexuality) and therefore never responded too as much as they should.

 

[yolland]

As a matter of PR savvy, I do find it unfortunate that many of the protesters chose to use the slogan "Free the Jena 6." "Equal Justice for the Jena 6" would have been much better. It's simply a given that when you use language like the former, many people are going to misread it as a point-specific commentary on the 'Jena 6 incident' itself, to the effect of "Oh whatever, they did nothing wrong, therefore there shouldn't be any consequences."

Of course, in reality, that's not why this case became a cause célèbre. Had there been no relevant preceding context for the incident (e.g. the nooses, the 'stroke of a pen' threat, the gun-pulling incident), and had the charges actually fit the the crime (e.g. misdemeanor battery with a probation-only sentence, such as the white boy who beat Jena 6 defendant Robert Bailey got), no one would be making a big deal out of this. In that context, "Free the Jena 6" is in fact synonymous with "Equal Justice for the Jena 6," because none of the white people involved got legal consequences beyond (in one case) probation for any of those things, whereas the Jena 6 each first faced up to 80 years in prison, and now up to 22.5, on felony charges.

I suppose that above and beyond that, there are also many people who simply find it excessive to press charges over a high-school beating whose worst consequence was a mild concussion. While I personally find that "argument" irrelevant (because anyone to whom something like that happens is well within their rights to press charges, like it or not), it is true that incidents of that magnitude happen all the time in schools without charges being pressed over them. Again, I don't think that's relevant per se, but I do tend to suspect that many people read the details of the beating, recalled similar incidents they saw in their own high school days where no charges were pressed, did a double take at the harshness of the sentences, and thought "What the hell?!?" Actually, one of my brothers got a concussion from an entirely unprovoked fight back in high school (he looked a lot worse than Justin Barker did in that photo, too) and my family never pressed charges or even considered it.

I meant it in a metaphorical way not literally of course I thought you could figure that out. A lynch mob takes the law into their own hands and attacks a person they want taken care of though it's illegal and wrong. The Jena 6 took the law into their own hands and attacked a person and it was wrong.
.............................................
Another thing, if being fed up with the bad treatment is a justification for their crimes, might as well excuse all kids who commit school shootings too.

It's just common sense that there are some things you don't freely and loosely make metaphors of. If a woman slaps a man on the cheek over an argument and shouts, "You fucking pig! Just like a man!" would you say that she degraded herself to the level of a serial rapist-murderer? Because after all, both involve violence against a person that implies contempt for their gender in general.

And I don't at all see how the Jena 6 took "the law" into their own hands. Justin Barker had done nothing illegal, he had nothing to do with hanging the nooses, nor did any of the Jena 6 believe he did. Rather, Jena 6 defendant Robert Bailey was angry at Barker for loudly gloating in school about Bailey getting jumped and beaten by a white boy after being denied entry to a white student party the weekend before (this was the aforementioned white boy who received misdemeanor battery charges and a probation-only sentence for the beating). I have not seen anyone, here or elsewhere, argue that that "justified" beating Justin Barker.

I didn't know about that. Yes those white kids should be charged.

How could you not know about it? That, and various other instances of unequal justice in this case, have already been repeatedly cited in this thread, not to mention countless news accounts of the whole affair. Again, this gives the impression that you are too busy focusing on the one tree to notice the forest. Whether or not the Jena 6 did something wrong is not what all the anger out there is about.

 

[BVS]

It's not bullshit. Six people attacking one. I meant it in a metaphorical way not literally of course I thought you could figure that out. A lynch mob takes the law into their own hands and attacks a person they want taken care of though it's illegal and wrong. The Jena 6 took the law into their own hands and attacked a person and it was wrong. Maybe 'gang bang' would be a better term, but it's basically the same thing. They were a hateful mob who attacked, injured and could have killed one individual.

Maybe you all went to really nice high schools, but this fight isn't THAT uncommon in high school. Yes it was severe, but having multiple kids beat up someone isn't uncommon. When I was in high school 4 guys beat up this kid sending him to the hospital because he apparently called girl a 'cunt' for not sleeping with him, they got sent to alternative school. No criminal charges. Would they still get the lych mob title from you?

If it's okay to do this to someone who 'terrorizes' you, then I'm sure many bullied kids in schools everywhere would love to beat the shit out of their tormentors. You can't do that in a civilized society, and if you do, you downgrade yourself to below the bully.

Who here has said it's 'OK'? This is just as weak as those death penalty discussions where some idiot comes in and assumes that someone who doesn't believe in the DP wants all murderers set free.

The biggest 'bullshit' here is defending these hoodlums as victims in need of support. They committed a criminal act and deserve to be treated as criminals. If others black or white have committed other acts they have not been charged with they too should be charged and punished, including the noose hangers. But letting these guys go free is a bad message, and will likely only set a precedent for many others in the future to claim to be a 'victim'.

Once again you are failing to see the real issue here.

Another thing, if being fed up with the bad treatment is a justification for their crimes, might as well excuse all kids who commit school shootings too.

 

[BVS]

Again, this gives the impression that you are too busy focusing on the one tree to notice the forest. Whether or not the Jena 6 did something wrong is not what all the anger out there is about.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[phillyfan26]

It's not bullshit. Six people attacking one. I meant it in a metaphorical way not literally of course I thought you could figure that out. A lynch mob takes the law into their own hands and attacks a person they want taken care of though it's illegal and wrong. The Jena 6 took the law into their own hands and attacked a person and it was wrong. Maybe 'gang bang' would be a better term, but it's basically the same thing. They were a hateful mob who attacked, injured and could have killed one individual.

If it's okay to do this to someone who 'terrorizes' you, then I'm sure many bullied kids in schools everywhere would love to beat the shit out of their tormentors. You can't do that in a civilized society, and if you do, you downgrade yourself to below the bully.

The biggest 'bullshit' here is defending these hoodlums as victims in need of support. They committed a criminal act and deserve to be treated as criminals. If others black or white have committed other acts they have not been charged with they too should be charged and punished, including the noose hangers. But letting these guys go free is a bad message, and will likely only set a precedent for many others in the future to claim to be a 'victim'.

Another thing, if being fed up with the bad treatment is a justification for their crimes, might as well excuse all kids who commit school shootings too.

You don't understand what the anger is even about, do you?

 

[Butterscotch]

You don't understand what the anger is even about, do you?

Oh please come on. I've been saying all along, it doesn't matter WHAT anyone did, you DO NOT attack and beat a guy the way those six did. A lot of people have been angry over a lot of things, even personal things used against them, but the bottom line is six guys jumped one guy and that's every bit as wrong as the 5 cops beating Rodney King.

I agree with Yolland that the message should not be "Free the Jena 6" but JUSTICE for ALL, and that means leaving them in jail where they belong, and bringing additional charges against any white kids who did something too. I just read a story about two boys in a truck dragging nooses behind it antagonizing the marchers getting back on their buses. They've been arrested and rightly so.

 

[BVS]

Oh please come on. I've been saying all along, it doesn't matter WHAT anyone did, you DO NOT attack and beat a guy the way those six did. A lot of people have been angry over a lot of things, even personal things used against them, but the bottom line is six guys jumped one guy and that's every bit as wrong as the 5 cops beating Rodney King.

You still don't get it. No one is saying these kids are justified, no one is saying that beating the kid isn't wrong. Did the cops get attempted murder charges?

I agree with Yolland that the message should not be "Free the Jena 6" but JUSTICE for ALL, and that means leaving them in jail where they belong, and bringing additional charges against any white kids who did something too. I just read a story about two boys in a truck dragging nooses behind it antagonizing the marchers getting back on their buses. They've been arrested and rightly so.

I would say alternative school and community service would be a better sentence then jail, but that's just me.

 

[Butterscotch]

From a new Yahoo news story:

Defense lawyers have complained that Mauffray set a high bail for Bell — $90,000 — prior to his conviction in the Barker beating. Mauffray had cited Bell's criminal record, which included juvenile arrests for battery and damage to property, in setting the bail.

See the kid had a record. He's no innocent victim being framed. The law takes this into consideration and I'm sure that has a lot to with why their charges are so much worse than some kid, black or white, who had no record. there is a lot we don't know about this case, it's not as 'black and white' as it may look.

 

[phillyfan26]

Oh please come on. I've been saying all along, it doesn't matter WHAT anyone did, you DO NOT attack and beat a guy the way those six did. A lot of people have been angry over a lot of things, even personal things used against them, but the bottom line is six guys jumped one guy and that's every bit as wrong as the 5 cops beating Rodney King.

I agree with Yolland that the message should not be "Free the Jena 6" but JUSTICE for ALL, and that means leaving them in jail where they belong, and bringing additional charges against any white kids who did something too. I just read a story about two boys in a truck dragging nooses behind it antagonizing the marchers getting back on their buses. They've been arrested and rightly so.

Yes, it's wrong, but it's not the bottom line in any way. There's much more to this story than summarizing "six guys jumped one guy" and leaving it at that.

It's not justice to have them in jail for this long for a school fight. I agree they deserve punishment, but not excessively unfair punishment, which is what you have here. And more importantly, an uneven lack of punishment for the others involved.

Leaving them in jail plainly and simply is not justice.

 

[BVS]

See the kid had a record. He's no innocent victim being framed.

Wow, you really just don't get it...

How many here have said "he's innocent and being framed"?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

ALEXANDRIA, Louisiana (CNN) -- A Louisiana city that hosted many of the "Jena 6" protesters Thursday became the site of a racially charged incident of its own.

Authorities in Alexandria, less than 40 miles southwest of Jena, arrested two people who were driving a red pickup Thursday night with two nooses hanging off the back, repeatedly passing groups of demonstrators who were waiting for buses back to their home states.

The marchers had taken part in the huge protests in Jena that accused authorities there of injustice in the handling of racially charged cases -- including the hanging of nooses in a tree after a group of black students sat in an area where traditionally only white students sat.

The driver of the red truck, whom Alexandria police identified as Jeremiah Munsen, 18, was charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor -- a reference to the 16-year-old passenger. Munsen also was charged with driving while intoxicated and inciting to riot, according to the police report.

As officials were questioning the driver, he said he had an unloaded rifle in the back of the truck, which police found. They also found a set of brass knuckles in a cup holder on the dashboard, the police report said.

The passenger told police he and his family are in the Ku Klux Klan and that he had KKK tattooed on his chest, the police report said. He also said that he tied the nooses and that the brass knuckles belonged to him, the report said.

The report, filed by Officer F.R. Drewett, said he and another officer were standing with protesters awaiting their bus back to Nashville, Tennessee, when one of the group told him about a truck driving with nooses hanging off the back.

The truck was circling around town, repeatedly driving past groups of demonstrators, the report said. The officers pulled the pickup over and arrested two after searching the vehicle.

At least one of the nooses was made out of an extension cord, according to the police report.

The driver and passenger are white, according to the police report.

An entry in the report lists "Bias Motive: Racial Anti-Black."

Alexandria Mayor Jacques Roy said those involved were "from around Jena" and not from the same parish as his city.

Roy said he is looking into whether the incident was a hate crime.

A photograph of the truck was sent to CNN by I-Reporter Casanova Love, 26, who said he is in the U.S. military. He's visiting his family in Louisiana and said he witnessed the event.

After the arrests, Roy came out to address the crowd and apologized, saying he does not condone racism, Love said.

Love added, "If the police had not stepped in, I fear what might have happened."

Love explained why he sent the photo to CNN: "People need to see this. It's 2007, and we still have fools acting like it's 1960."

Roy said the matter is "not indicative" of Alexandria and that local authorities will look into it "completely, thoroughly and transparently."

Some protesters saw another truck with a noose hanging off it, but authorities did not find the vehicle, according to the police report.