Liberal Philosophy Makes Me Sick

[80sU2isBest]

I've interacted with a few thoughtful and nice Liberals on Interference. I'm thinking mainly of Bonoman, Rono, Trash Can, and a few others. But I've just gotta say it - except for the anti-death penalty platform, I think Liberal philosophy (political and moral)is one of the worst things that's happened to the world. As the subject line states, it "makes me sick". Who agrees?

 

[The Wanderer]

yes, it's always good to go with the "moral majority" and the good traditional values; and that "compassionate conservatism" makes me feel all warm + fuzzy

conservatives get it right when they say that Big Government should not control your life, but they get it wrong when they let Big Business + Religion slide in to take its place

I don't know, I don't really like either, each side wants to drag you as far to the left or right as they can, so they can further their agenda, which is almost always flawed

for instance, I am pro-choice but there are many pro-choice advocates who would consider me a threat and enemy to their agenda because I think 3rd term abortions should be banned and I also support adoption and think it should be heavily promoted; and i don't comprehend how pro-lifers could oppose the morning after pill, which would drastically reduse the number of abortions that occur and also please many conservatives who would not be faced with paying tax dollars to well-fare mothers [finis]

but if it really makes you sick 80sU2isBest, you should go to the doctor, provided you're not one of the 45 million Americans without healthcare coverage

 

[radiodivision]

Fair enough 80sU2isBest. Try to enlighten those liberal-minded folks out there by pointing out some of the virtues of conservative philosophy.

[This message has been edited by radiodivision (edited 08-12-2001).]

 

[misterboo]

80sU2, count your blessings: you don't have any left wing politics in your country.

------------------
Mock the silence while you can.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
Well, ignore the troll after this brief response:
Bono is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Edge is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Adam is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Larry is a liberal thiner, both politically and morally.
Many, many people who post to interference are liberal thinkers, both politically and morally.

We all make you sick?

You're attitude here certainly makes ME feel a bit sick.

MP

I don't mind being disagreed with. By posting something like this, I am inviting it. However, you have stated some inaccuracies about me, so I will correct you.

First, I'm not a troll. I've been active on this forum a lot longer than you. And if you had followed this forum any at all this last year, you'd realize that liberal philosophy has made me sick from day one. Everyone i've debated with knows that. I've never come righht out and said it, but you don't have to be a genius to read between the lines and see how I feel. And if you'll read the damn post again, you'll see that I said "liberal philosophy makes me sick", not "liberal people". In the same post, I even listed some people who have liberal philosophy that I enjoy. In the future, please read things more clearly before jumping on someone.

 

[DrTeeth]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
..., I think Liberal philosophy (political and moral)is one of the worst things that's happened to the world.

Why?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by bonoman:
Well me being a liberal i dont know?

bonoman, I am truly sorry if I misstated your political affiliation. However, I do enjoy conversing with you, whether you're conservative or liberal. If I misstated anyone else's political affiliation, I am also sorry.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
I'm sick of one Party that no one is invited to except the economic elite; bonoman is right, and what i was trying to say before was that I HATE black & white politics, where everything is either one or the other, luckily however, the bastards have to compromise with each other and they can't do too much damage

I am not economically elite at all. Neither are most of my Republican friends. However, if you'd like to talk about elite, take a long at the Kennedy family. As we all know, they are Democrats. Are there rich people in the Republican party? Oh yes, but they certainly don't have any monopoly on having rich members. There are a BUNCH of rich Democrats. And there certainly isn't any "litmus test" which states that if you aren't rich you can't get into the Republican party.

 

[DrTeeth]

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) The Wanderer means that if you aren't part of the economic elite, you'll have less reasons to vote republican.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by radiodivision:
Fair enough 80sU2isBest. Try to enlighten those liberal-minded folks out there by pointing out some of the virtues of conservative philosophy.
[This message has been edited by radiodivision (edited 08-12-2001).]

This is what I consider the virtues of conservative philosophy.

1)Protection of the unborn
2)Protection of religious freedom (yes, for EVERY religion)
3)Belief in small government
4)Belief in the right for a person to bear arms to protect him/herself
5)A capitalistic society, wherein every person has a right to better himself economically

These are the big ones for me, but there are others.

To be fair, there is an area in which I hold views similar to many liberals...

1)Anti-Death Penalty

And the following issue is one that I think many people from both parties agree with, but has been adopted mainly by the liberals:
1)Ethical treatment of animals. I don't believe in experimentation on animals for any reason other than necessary disease research.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by DrTeeth:
Why?

Here's why:

1)A decay in the way society views morals and God. I realize that not every one believes in the same morals I do, but you asked me why, so these are my opinions, based on my moral values. I'm also not saying that liberals are morally bankrupt and that conservatives have a monopoly on moral living. But what I am saying is that Liberal thinking is a very large part of what has led to the hedonistic "nothing is wrong as long as no one is hurt" thought that so permeates our society today. Some things are just outright wrong, but good luck finding that idea reinforced in society these days. The sexual revolution of the 60s was in one way a direct result of liberal philosphy, and in another way launched a whole new wave of it that is still strong today. Before the 60s, immorality did of course occur, but back then it was something to be ashamed of. Today, immorality is flaunted as if it is a medal of honor. Joe's sleeping with Jack's wife, while Jack is sleeping with Tom's 19 year old daughter, and society says "oh what a shame" and moves on as if everything is okay. The Bridges of Madison County glorifies the decision of a married person to continue an affair rather than stay faithful to the spouse. This is a theme that runs rampant throughout Hollywood movies.

2)The idea that governement knows what is best for our money. I'm tired of the government robbing us of our money and forcing it into useless programs like the two NEAs (National Education Agency and National Endowment Of the Arts).

3)A certain aspect of liberal philosphy would have this entire country unable to defend itself if it had its way and guns were taken away from teh law-abiding citizens. Wanna take guns away? Fine. Take tehm away from the felons. But you take them away from law-abiders, and you're just asking for more and more murder, as the bad guys now have less to worry about. Not only that, but you're giving the government the chance to roll over us like they did in Tieneman Square.

 

[radiodivision]

Originally posted by misterboo:
80sU2, count your blessings: you don't have any left wing politics in your country.

I couldn't have said it better! At best, today's Democratic party represents a centrist view....now the Green Party is far more liberal than the Democratic Party. Agree with misterboo...in essence the two parties are very similar.

 

[The Wanderer]

no 80sU2, I wasn't saying that only Republicans are the economic elite, I was saying that politicians and the ones pulling their strings are, and you are right, it's certainly not exclusive to one Party

 

[80sU2isBest]

You've all given me food for thought, except Matthew Page. I like this type of discussion. I would like to further clarify a point. When I speak of Liberals and Conservatives, I'm not really talking about Democrats and Republicans. There are some Republicans I don't like - Arlen Specter, etc., and some Democrats I do - like Zel Miller and Jim Trafficant.

 

[The Wanderer]

as far as conservatives go, I really respect and admire Sen. Orin Hatch; and among liberals I like former Senator Bill Bradley; Jesse Ventura is a bit crude and I don't always agree with him, but at least you know what you're getting with him, and that's rare these days... overall, I think Ralph Nader is probably the most sincere and honest of any mainstream politician (if you can even consider him mainstream)

I'm interested to see what others think; what U.S. politicians do you admire the most? What about in Europe? What thoughts do you have on Tony Blair, Gerhard Schroeder, Vladimir Putin, Jacques Cherac and others? (maybe this should be a separate thread but I'll give people the chance to respond here if they want)

 

[Crzy4Bono]

Well 80sU2isBest, I guess I would consider myself a more "liberal" thinker than you. I don't always vote by party - I have actually voted republican in the past. But basically I believe:

1. We should all work toward mutual respect for our neighbors, both here in the US and globally. I do not think this view is always embraced by the right. In fact, I would argue that one of your points above, working toward religious freedom and acceptance for all religions is clearly NOT embraced by the right, which tends to be hard-line christian only, with little regard for other belief systems.

2. We should work toward a lasting peace. My perception is that the right tends to look inward, and is less open to compromise in order to achieve a world community (we've been down this road before on the treaty issues so I'll spare you the rhetoric). I really do believe this will hurt the United States in the long run as we are consistently left out of world politics.

3. We are going to have to agree to disagree on the gun issue. I just do not believe it is in our citizens best interest for everyone to have guns just laying around. From my view, the majority of the time guns are used in this country, it is in the commission of a crime, or when a child is hurt or killed in a gun-related accident (as a parent, every time I see this happen, I just want to die). There are far too many examples of western nations with more stringent gun control policies that have significantly lower crime rates. We are just a "gun" culture here. (And this from me, a southern girl!) Our constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to bear arms was actually intended to provide for a "well-armed militia", and not individual citizens. And it certainly doesn't allow some joker to walk around with a concealed weapon at a Wal-Mart so he can shoot the windows out of a car that took his parking place. (Yes, this just happened here). At the very least we should have strict licensure laws that govern who can own a gun, and requires gun safety and training. I mean crap, I can get a gun easier than I can go fishing. What is up with that? If I am a law-abiding citizen who just wants a gun around for protection, why should this be an issue? And if my kids get hold of my weapon that I have not secured properly, and does something horrible with it, I should be responsible for that.

4. I'm not going to get into the abortion issue with you here. But I would just question a system that encourages the poor to have unwanted children and then eliminates the social support structure that helps them care for those children. Where are all of the pro-life folks when it is time to raise those kids? Educate them? Clothe them?

All that being said, I think we need people of all political views involved in the process. Good, healthy debate causes everyone to re-evaluate their positions. If only politicians weren't so bent on "winning" and instead were willing to compomise for the best solution, perhaps we could quit quarreling over these issues.

Wanderer - I really liked John McCain. (yep - a Republican!) I wish the media had been a bit less successful cramming Mr. Bush down our throats before the primaries were decided - I think if the mass audience had given Mr. McCain a listen, those primaries might have been a bit tighter. Unfortunately, I believe the pundits at CNBC and CNN are deciding our presidents before we even have a chance to hear the politics.

Peace!

------------------
She's gonna dream up a world she wants to live in / She's gonna dream out loud.
Visit my web page at www.u2page.com

[This message has been edited by Crzy4Bono (edited 08-13-2001).]

 

[bonoman]

well now i am a bit confused. Liberal and Conservetives and Republicans and Democrats. Which are which?

Secondly our politicans have to work together to get somewhere. If they are all about winning, like some said, then the losers are us. If our politcians dont start working together then our countries wont keep moving ahead.

80's...I do not classify myself as anything. I am very openminded and closeminded at the same time. Politcal allfiliations make me chringe. I never want to become another cons. or lib. i want to be my own person and have my own views. No harm by you though!

This is good debate!

------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

 

[bonoman]

Well me being a liberal i dont know?

I am not american and in canada we have many more parties to turn to. WE even have the mariujuana party!!(but i could care less about them)

So what i have learned about liberals and dem. is mostly collected from here. From one post to another. I have learned that some of them hate eachother, and some cant even have decent conversations. You people have got to relize its all a game. Live with your fellow people without discussing this evil of politics. It, as everyone knows, divides nearly everyone. So i decided to not try to convert people. Let the politicans do that!

In america you are very limited to your choices. Your either one or the other. In canada and many other places there are many choices. We do have the liberals which are in gov't that have won every year for so long.(not every year i cant remember the number but they never get out) But we have alternative choices. Our alternative choices are now becoming stronger as the work together. I think what america lacks is choice!

Chose neither and start a new party rolling!

------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

 

[mikal]

GREEN PARTY BABY!!!!!!!!!

 

[sulawesigirl4]

We need a parliment.

I'm sick of two parties.

-sula

 

[Matthew_Page2000]

C'mon people, ignore the troll.

MP

 

[The Wanderer]

I'm sick of one Party that no one is invited to except the economic elite; bonoman is right, and what i was trying to say before was that I HATE black & white politics, where everything is either one or the other, luckily however, the bastards have to compromise with each other and they can't do too much damage

 

[Matthew_Page2000]

Well, ignore the troll after this brief response:
Bono is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Edge is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Adam is a liberal thinker, both politically and morally.
Larry is a liberal thiner, both politically and morally.
Many, many people who post to interference are liberal thinkers, both politically and morally.

We all make you sick?

You're attitude here certainly makes ME feel a bit sick.

MP

 

[zoomerang II]

Interesting:
2)Protection of religious freedom (yes, for EVERY religion)
3)Belief in small government
1)Anti-Death Penalty
1)Ethical treatment of animals.

80'sU2isbest, (apart perhaps what you allude to by "small government"), the above could all be consistent with liberal philosophy.

Wether or not you like it, you do espouse SOME liberal values (hope you aren't feeling a bit sick). And there is nothing wrong with that - because we live in the 21st century where these values have become ingrained as values that all humans have.

 

[popkidu2]

you know, it's funny really. Republicans always talk about how they are the defenders of religion and morality etc. But the only religion they are ever defending is christianity.

I can't remember the last time I saw a conservative trumping the rights of the muslims, orthodox jews, hindus, or any of the other hundred of religions that are practiced in this country.....

No, they just want the ten commandments in every classroom.....

Sorry, I know that's a really sarcastic comment. I'm not attacking you 80'sU2...I just don't get the conservative attitude in this respect.

------------------
All is quiet on New Year's Day
Think I'll try and impress my mates
So I jumped into the lake
I won't do that again
Here we go again - A

IM me at popkidu2

[This message has been edited by popkidu2 (edited 08-13-2001).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by popkidu2:

I can't remember the last time I saw a conservative trumping the rights of the muslims, orthodox jews, hindus, or any of the other hundred of religions that are practiced in this country.....

Wel, you don't know me. I do indeed trump the rights of other religions to worship as they please in this country without fear of discrimination.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Crzy4Bono:
In fact, I would argue that one of your points above, working toward religious freedom and acceptance for all religions is clearly NOT embraced by the right, which tends to be hard-line christian only, with little regard for other belief systems.

I would like an example of this, please.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by zoomerang II:
Interesting:
2)Protection of religious freedom (yes, for EVERY religion)
3)Belief in small government
1)Anti-Death Penalty
1)Ethical treatment of animals.

80'sU2isbest, (apart perhaps what you allude to by "small government"), the above could all be consistent with liberal philosophy.

Wether or not you like it, you do espouse SOME liberal values (hope you aren't feeling a bit sick). And there is nothing wrong with that - because we live in the 21st century where these values have become ingrained as values that all humans have.

Sorry, but small government is NOT a liberal philosophy. And I did admit that ny anti-death penalty and ethical treatment of animals views were basically "liberal" views. You should hear me argue with my friends about hunting. This may start another argument, but I believe it's wrong to hunt if you are able to just buy meat at the store.

 

[radiodivision]

Originally posted by Crzy4Bono:

4. I'm not going to get into the abortion issue with you here. But I would just question a system that encourages the poor to have unwanted children and then eliminates the social support structure that helps them care for those children. Where are all of the pro-life folks when it is time to raise those kids? Educate them? Clothe them?

I agree with pretty much all you said Crzy4Bono especially your fourth point. I always find it hypocritical when pro-life people only worry about the unborn and not the born. As you pointed out, no one in the pro-life movement seems to worry about those in need AFTER they are born!

 

[Hitman]

While I agree that small government is a good idea in theory, the smaller the government, the greater we are controlled by HUGE corporations who are not elected nor looking out for our best interests...I would rather have a bigger government fighting against BIG CORPORATIONS who would have us all working for minimum wage if they could!