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#41 |
New Yorker
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,637
Local Time: 02:27 AM
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I think one thing you have to really analyze is dogma vs. doctrine. Dogma is important and you need to believe in it. If you don't believe Jesus was the son of God, you may want to think about converting to a non-Christian religion.
__________________On the other hand, doctrine is more lucid. Doctrine says you shouldn't be a homosexual but you don't have to agree with that to still be considered a Catholic. It seems that the issue you're dealing with Melon is more about doctrine than dogma. In the end, I'm a practicing Catholic but I know the church is wrong at times. Did you know that there is a belief that the "sex after marriage" doctrine came about in the Middle Ages because the church couldn't care for all the poor children? Not sure if its true but not sure if its not. Did you hear that at one point priests could be married? Probably didn't hear it but some believe they have evidence that it happened. In the end, my doctrine is based on Jesus saying in the New Testament that the new commandment he brought with him was "Love one another as you love Me." If I deeply love someone who died on a cross for me, why should I not love my enemy? Or love someone who had an abortion? Or love someone who is gay? Love anyone who would be considered a sinner? [he who is without sin cast the first stone] Some of my best friends in college I met at the Catholic church that served the campus. We were all messed up in our own way-- abortions, suicidal tendencies, drug addictions, self mutilation, etc. etc. These are people that you are supposed to condemn in the Catholic church. But sometimes, when given the chance, those people tend to be the best role models and live better Christian lives than people who show up at church every Sunday and go home without living God's word. Agree or disagree with the church if you want, but in the end its your actions when you are outside of the church building that really show what kind of a Catholic you are. |
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#42 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 02:27 AM
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*breathe*
__________________It has really hit me in the last couple days that I really can't drift away from the Church. It's too much a part of me. I can still really do without the hierarchy--the Pope, the Cardinals, the Bishops, the priests, etc.--because they really haven't done much for me in a really long time, and I guess I'm still waiting for that nonexistent dynamic priest like in Hollywood. I think the problem with dynamicism--and I've picked this up in my own archdiocese--is that all their good priests are elevated to bishops. So, great, I saw them three times when my siblings and got confirmed, and, with my last sibling about to get confirmed, I may see my last bishop in my lifetime very soon. Great speakers many of them are, and, at least for one day, I'm not questioning why I even go to Church anymore. I could leave the Catholic Church, but I still would be angry. Perhaps, in my folly, I imagined that if I left that somehow it would all disappear; that the Pope would no longer exist, his rabidly bigoted right hand, Cardinal Ratzinger, would disappear, and, somehow, everything would get better. However, it's a silly thought, because I get mad at hearing Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and "Dr." Laura, and neither of the three are my religion. In the last three years, which have been a real rollercoaster of emotion, I undertook perhaps my most ambitious personal side-project, and I tried to understand why Catholicism is the way it is, and I discovered things that were incredibly beautiful about it, and, with all that knowledge in my head, I just don't know how I can just throw it all away and pick up the beliefs and ideas of another sect. I'm still incredibly angry at the Pope, and any lasting respect that I did have for him has evaporated completely. It is only interesting when you can hit a point that you can pick apart statements and/or writings the Church makes and pick out the respective philosophies behind them--and then realize how faulty they really are. Perhaps I have been guilty of this here at times, but the Church, notoriously, likes to deluge its believers with such legalistic jargon that it often takes a Biblical scholar just to decipher it. When you cannot even communicate to the masses clearly, is it perhaps time for reevaluation? Regardless, it isn't the hierarchy that makes the Church, it is the body of believers. I am sure I will always be a thorn on the side of the hierarchy, and, one of these days, I'm considering discussing these various beliefs of mine with a priest whom I can trust and respect. If I can find one someday, perhaps I will. I can only feel slightly vindicated conscience-wise with the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, in hearing that it was not a fixed text and that many added their own prejudices in it. If I could get a hold of an unabridged English translation of all the volumes of the scrolls (I believe that there are nearly 40), I'd probably be in my element. Honestly, I did not realize that all the original Hebrew documents had been lost and we were working from Greek texts all along. We learn something new everyday, yes? Melon ------------------ "He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time |
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#43 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bruce's land of hope and dreams
Posts: 5,404
Local Time: 01:27 AM
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All I have to add is-reading your last post Melon
![]() ![]() ![]() Keep hanging in there-it's worth it for sure. You would still be angry if you left, and, for sure, it IS the body of believers. No religion that's 'easy' is worth it, is it? |
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#44 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 01:27 AM
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#45 |
New Yorker
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,637
Local Time: 02:27 AM
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Melon-- I have to say I'm really impressed with your analysis. The Pope is the Pope, he's going to die someday and they're going to elect someone else who will run the church in a different way perhaps. But in the end, the Pope is but a small part of the church and you reminded me of that.
I'm glad you brought this topic up. Some of the opinions in this thread I agree with and some I don't but its been a very interesting thread to read and be a part of. With religion, people sometimes get too passionate and go overboard but I think this has been a really interesting, eye opening and thought provoking issue. So thanks all. |
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#46 | |||
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 02:27 AM
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![]() I could go on and on about the various anecdotes about hierarchical hypocrisy, because I know about them. Most of the Catholic clergy is probably gay, and this has been the case for well over 1200 years. Out of jealousy, I think, the stoic movement arose, which was anti-emotional, anti-sex, anti-woman, anti-gay, etc. (which is also the father of most of Catholic tradition). There were female priests for the first 500 years of the Church, but were banned because they thought female priests were "pagan" (the Pope, conveniently, is silent about this, because he knows this). Priests could marry for the first 1100 years of the Church, but the stoics did away with that too. You only need to look at the Eastern Orthodox Church, which split in 1054, with one of the contentious points being that the Western Church was demanding priest celibacy. Orthodox priests can still marry, and I don't think there are worries about them neglecting their duties. One day, I'd love to hang their dirty laundry out to dry... But very good posts, Ant. Did I mention that you're in the illustrious list of Melon forum favorites now? ![]() Melon ------------------ "He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time |
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#47 | |
New Yorker
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posts: 2,551
Local Time: 11:27 PM
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#48 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: My TARDIS - currently located in Valparaiso, IN
Posts: 6,361
Local Time: 10:27 PM
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I'm not reading this whole thread, so my apologies if this has already been stated. IMO, leaving the church is not the same as leaving one's faith. I was raised a Catholic, but haven't practiced for years, despite being rather involved with the church in my youth. What worked for me then doesn't work for me now - hence why I do not practice the Catholic religion. However, my faith in God is as strong ever - maybe even more so than when I was younger. |
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#49 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,490
Local Time: 11:27 PM
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Just curious, 80s... that's all. [This message has been edited by theSoulfulMofo (edited 11-30-2001).] |
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#50 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Castro Valley, CA
Posts: 997
Local Time: 06:27 AM
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So 80s, want me to try answering the above? This is really a big question, the complete answer is found by reading the New Testament. Besides being the Word of God, Jesus is talking throughout it. I can only give a few examples, I am certainly no expert. Jesus spends very little time discussing moral issues. He came up against the legalism of his day that made works above obeying God. He introduces a relationship with God based on the first comandment that we love God with all our heart, mind and strength. Jesus's basic message is "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt 4:17b) He uses many parables to describe what heaven is and how we get there. He tells his followers to not be anxious about necessities but "Instead, seek his kingdom and, and these things shall be yours as well." (Luke 12:31) He declared that "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6b) So the things that Jesus tell us we learn mostly by looking to his example, and having faith that he is the Son of God. It's not about doing the right or wrong thing, because we all sin, but allowing Jesus into our lives so he can heal those areas we have problems with. Course you have to admit you've done something wrong. (And when you have a relationship with Jesus, the Holy Spirit will let you know!) However, Jesus does spend some time giving specifics in a section of the bible called the Sermon on the Mount (Matt.5-7). These you may have heard. Here's some examples: From the beatitudes (Matt. 5:3-11): "Blessed are the meek (humble)... "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness... "Blessed are the merciful... "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgement. But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement." (Matt.5:21-22) "You have heard that it was said "You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matt.5:27-28) "But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." (Matt. 5:32) "But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you." (Matt. 5:38-42) "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 6:14-15) "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where theives don ot break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Matt. 6:19-21) "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon(money)." (Matt.6:24) "Judge not, that you be not judged." (Matt.7:1) One more that fits here comes from Luke 6:31, it's the golden rule "And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them." So Anthony, does that help at all ![]() |
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#51 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 02:27 AM
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Quote:
The Catholic Matthew 5:32: "But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." The contentious word is "porneia," which refers to "incest," not "unchastity," so the Catholic interpretation, in this instance, is the correct interpretation on the basis of the original word. Matthew, you must remember, was written for a Jewish-minded audience, and, unlike the Gentile-minded gospels, required full adherence to the Mosaic Law (hence, "unlawful" in this passage). What this passage is referring to is Leviticus 18:6-18, which tells one which family members one cannot have sex with. Once again, if you take the KJV literally, Jesus contradicts Himself. Jesus is opposed to divorce in all circumstances, except for this one passage in Matthew. However, with correct translation, you will see that Jesus doesn't contradict Himself on divorce; He's opposed to it 100%. Melon ------------------ "He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time |
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#52 |
Refugee
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,538
Local Time: 06:27 AM
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'The Ten Commandments ARE the direct word of God; Moses, God's prophet, is the only one who heard it. He wrote it down for the rest of us to know.'
That's nice. I suppose you believe that the world was also flooded in its entirety and God really didsend all those plagues down and killed all those first-born of Egypt? THe rest of EXODUS is so improbable that it has to be taken purely on a symbolic note, any other way and I find it completely laughable. So I'm sorry, but I can not acccept the TEN COMMANDMENTS of God as direct words from It, if they are, then It is guilty of breaking It's very own Commandments, and what does that make God? A fascist with double-standards. I repudiate the sentiment that the Ten Commandments are the direct commandments of God. Ant. |
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#53 | |
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Notre Dame, IN, 46556
Posts: 1,072
Local Time: 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Cheers, The Second eye of Mullah Omar |
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#54 | |
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Notre Dame, IN, 46556
Posts: 1,072
Local Time: 06:27 AM
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#55 | |
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Notre Dame, IN, 46556
Posts: 1,072
Local Time: 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Ah. Yes.. I just scrolled down and read a recommendation about the episcopal (spelling?) church.. They have the reps as being 'good time catholics'.. very similar to us, just not as stringent.. So close.. yet so far when you look at moving to them.. melon.. I guarantee you can find your solace in the catholic church.. Ya just may need to look a little further... |
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#56 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 02:27 AM
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Do I sense a bit of bitterness and sarcasm in your writing, my dear Lemonite...or should I say, "the second eye of Mullah Omar"?
__________________Would you like to share the source of your bitterness if this is true? Melon ------------------ "He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time |
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