"I'd like my opinions to appear independent from..."

[foray]

I'd like my opinions to appear independent from the arguments in the forum, hence this NEW thread. Thanks for opening this and reading/respecting what I've to say.

I don't want America to go to war. For those who want this, do ask yourselves these questions:

Could it be that CNN/the media wants you to believe that Black Tuesday was an invitation to war and an equal to Pearl Harbour? It is only an invitation to war when the attacker is an entire nation. The culprits of Tuesday's events are from a terrorist group and they do not represent a nation. I think that people should handle this and think of this as a terrorist issue and not a war issue (there is a distinction).

Could it be that your patriotism is getting in the way of your values? I'm not being judgmental okay, I'd just like for you to reflect on whether the Idea of Patriotism is completely valid. You see, it is very good to be proud of your country and defend its reputation etc. It is another thing when your zeal for your country leads you to thirst for the blood of others. You folks here are not vampires, I know, but sometimes the way you say things make me think perhaps the hatred is spreading from the terrorists to yourselves.

There is one possible solution; it's not the be-all and end-all of solutions, but this way less blood will be shed. You see, all terrorists fight for a cause, even if these are twisted causes. Getting back at them is not getting at the fundamental problem. We must take away their cause; only then will they have nothing to fight for, and no help from their supporters. Now how do we do this? First, understand what drove them to hate America such. (I'm not saying we should go, "oh you poor terrorist, why are you feeling this way?") The reasons for their hatred that I know are:

i) America gives Israel 3 billion a year to attack the Palestinians. You know, if that kind of money was given to New Zealand, we would have free education, free medical services etc. For the past several years, Palestinians have suffered as a direct result of American support for Israel. Palestine has a population of 4 million, and out of that, 3 million are refugees. They have suffered the same as the victims of Black Tuesday, I'm afraid to tell you, and have largely been ignored because the media does not report it.

ii) The UN embargo/occupation of troops in Iraq has created grief for the people of Iraq. These are innocent people; remember, not everyone in Iraq support Saddam Hussein, in fact, many abhor him.

This is why the Middle East hates America. They don't hate America because of the reasons Dubya and Colin Powell stated, that is, that they hate American values of freedom. Does your President take you for fools? How can he expect you to believe that that's the reason terrorists hate Americans? Sheesh, the media is trying to brainwash its own people. Don't be fooled, you are smarter than that.

The next step to taking away the terrorist's cause is to take away their grievances. This is the part that Americans wouldn't like to hear me say. What America could do is to stop funding Israel. Let both Palestine and Israel have a piece of the West Bank, stop the war there. Remove U.S. troops from Iraq? (question mark placed here because I myself am not sure about this one.) Stop fueling war in the Middle East.

You are probably angry at me now and calling me an idealist. To that I will say, what is wrong with striving for Athens and not Sparta?

That's all for now.

foray

[foray]

This is an interesting letter, it is also somewhere along the lines of what I was saying: http://www.malaysiakini.com/Letter/2...001091403.php3

You may read this for an elaboration perhaps:
http://www.malaysiakini.com/Letter/2...001091715.php3

foray

[This message has been edited by foray (edited 09-17-2001).]

[Like O2]

Originally posted by foray:

i) America gives Israel 3 billion a year to attack the Palestinians. You know, if that kind of money was given to New Zealand, we would have free education, free medical services etc. For the past several years, Palestinians have suffered as a direct result of American support for Israel. Palestine has a population of 4 million, and out of that, 3 million are refugees. They have suffered the same as the victims of Black Tuesday, I'm afraid to tell you, and have largely been ignored because the media does not report it.

I must say, this is one point where I have a very difficult time. I'm not going to pretend I know or understand all the reasons the USA is funding Israel, but the basic idea is very difficult for me to digest.

I won't critize the USA right now when so many of our citizens are still missing in NY, but knowing some Palestines with whom I've discussed this issue at length, it makes is VERY hard to defend the USA's position.



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If they knock you down get right back up.
That's the only way to do it. ~ Elvis Presley

[brettig]

Originally posted by foray:

You are probably angry at me now and calling me an idealist. To that I will say, what is wrong with striving for Athens and not Sparta?

Nothing wrong with that at all

Just an addition, I think its the economic sanctions on Iraq that are the cause of most consternation, as i dont think there are American troops there...for now.

[Spiral_Staircase]

foray, I don't want america to go to war either. Like you and many others, I have been thinking hard about what is the best thing to do in this situation. Not necesarily the best thing for the U.S., but the best thing for the world. I believe there is no perfect human solution to this conflict, so I'm just looking for the best response, not the perfect solution. Right now I'm assuming that Al-Qa'ida, Bin Laden's organization, is behind the attacks.
So how should we respond? Let's assume our goal is to end the violence or eliminate as much of it as we can. We have many choices, but they fall into 3 categories: doing nothing, attacking (so the terrorists can't kill again), or take away their cause (as you suggest).
We could do nothing. Al-Qa'ida would likely go on killing Americans AND OTHERS whenever the opportunity arrises.
We could attack Al-Qa'ida, where ever they are, in an attempt to destroy their terrorist network so they no longer can commit these violent acts. This would require violence on our part, but in the end would likely end in less violence, as Bin Laden has made it clear that he wants to kill as many Americans as possible.
Our other choice is try to take away their reason for violence. Bin Laden has made it clear that his problem with the U.S. is their presence in his home country, Saudi Arabia. He believes that it is unacceptable for non-Muslims to be in the Arabian penninsula, what he considers the holy land of Islam. So we could pull out of Saudi Arabia altogether. Unfortunately, this would not stop the killing. Bin Laden wants to overthrow the Saudi government. He also believes nearly all muslim governments are corrupt and should be overthrown (these are not my assumptions, these are statements he has made). With the Americans out of the way, he will begin killing Saudis, then Egyptians, Israelis, Jordanians, probably Palestinians and Iranians. His goal is to establish one giant borderless state ruled by the Caliphs (religious leaders of islam) -- a return to the muslim world of the middle-ages.
Given this scenario, in my opinion option #2, attacking the terrorists, is the horrible, ugly, best choice.

This is just what I've been thinking over the last week. I haven't been able to keep up with all the discussions going on in here, so maybe I'm making the same points as others here.

[This message has been edited by Spiral_Staircase (edited 09-18-2001).]

[Matthew_Page2000]

I'm sympathetic to what you are saying Foray but I'm not convinced you've thought it through. I don't want war either but have you really considered the ramifications of not supporting Israel? The ramifications would be an all out war in the region. The only thing preventing such a war is the knowledge that the U.S. would get involved.
Let Palestine and Israel have a piece of the West Bank? I'm all for it but it won't stop the violence there. Should we try to be more even handed in the region? Absolutely. But there are no easy answers here.
The Palestinians believe that the Jews are occupying THEIR Holy Land. The Jews feel much the same way about the Palestinians. The Palestinians won't be satisfied with sharing and divying up the land. The true extremists, the people who blow up buildings and suicide bomb discotheques won't stop until the Jewish state is erradicated. This isn't just rhetoric or propaganda, it's what these folks keep saying repeatedly.
I saw an rerum of an interesting two year old interview with Osama Bin Laden where he said the way to get Americans to do what you want is to kill them because they have no taste for a real fight. His examples were the bombing in Beirut that killed our marines and the battle in Somalia that killed our special forces. Basically he said that if you kill Americans they will run because they have no stomach for a real fight. If we "run" from the Middle East a lot more people are going to die.

MP

[Matthew_Page2000]

My other concern is that what if a perception starts to form that Americans will do whatever you want so long as you kill enough of them? If we stop supporting Israel because of this terrorist attack maybe the next nation or group that wants something from us will open the negotiations by blowing up the Staples Center during a Lakers game.
The interview with Lin Baden that I mentioned above is real evidence that terrorists base their actions in part on how they think we will respond and on how we have responded in the past.

No easy answers.
MP

[MSU2mike]

Ran across this the other day...last Wednesday, I believe. Fairly noteworthy with regard to Matthew's comment about what Bin Laden and the Taliban might have expected from us.

Geraldo has on the phone a friend who is a journalist in Pakistan that used to be an advisory to former prime ministers of Pakistan and a former ambassador himself (his name was Husain something).

This person received a call today from a man (another journalist) who knows bin Laden. Husain said that he personally feels the Taliban are lying about having cut off bin Laden's communications. He says bin Laden is communicating through various channels as we speak.

But he also went to say that this journalist who knows bin Laden told him that many of the Taliban and bin Laden himself are greatly concerned (he used the word scared) about the retaliation America might take. Bin Laden moves from place to place because he knows he can avoid tactical missile attacks, but they have never prepared for an all out ground attack and they didn't expect that this would be an option that America would take.

Not sure how accurate all of it was but it was interesting nonetheless.

[Mirrorball Man]

Foray I couldn't agree with you more.


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Rain from Heaven.

Free your mind and the rest will follow.
Be colour blind, don't be so shallow.

[Like O2]

Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:

No easy answers.

This really says it all!



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If they knock you down get right back up.
That's the only way to do it. ~ Elvis Presley

[foray]

Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
Basically he said that if you kill Americans they will run because they have no stomach for a real fight. If we "run" from the Middle East a lot more people are going to die.

MP

I can't help but picture in my mind a boy who does something wrong and stupid because some other boy 'dared' him to. Thanks for the post, anyway, I will think about it more.

foray

[StarsnStripes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by foray:
[B]

It is only an invitation to war when the attacker is an entire nation. The culprits of Tuesday's events are from a terrorist group and they do not represent a nation.

---If the terrorism is funded/controlled by a nation, then they do represent that nation.




i) America gives Israel 3 billion a year to attack the Palestinians.

---attacks? Any military action Israel undertook in the past half century has been defensive in posture. The arab world wants them out-period.


What America could do is to stop funding Israel.

---Right- and in 5 years Israel would cease to exist. (provided N. Korea or China didn't start funding them--there's a scary thought!)

Let both Palestine and Israel have a piece of the West Bank.

---Been proposed before- no takers on either side.


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Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.

[Patti Jones]

*Patti stands up and claps*

Clap Clap Clap for Foray!!!

That sums a big part of all!

PS: welcome me! Im new in this forum!

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Patti
-Pride Girl-

[bonoman]

Originally posted by foray:

Could it be that CNN/the media wants you to believe that Black Tuesday was an invitation to war and an equal to Pearl Harbour? It is only an invitation to war when the attacker is an entire nation.The culprits of Tuesday's events are from a terrorist group and they do not represent a nation. I think that people should handle this and think of this as a terrorist issue and not a war issue (there is a distinction).

No, why must it be a country that has declared war on you. What happens in a civil war? A group or militia trys to take over the gov't. Its not declared. When people that are militarly trained and have weapons of mass destruction and have said, "all american should be killed" i realy think that it been declared war. What is this disticntion you talk about?

There is one possible solution; it's not the be-all and end-all of solutions, but this way less blood will be shed. You see, all terrorists fight for a cause, even if these are twisted causes. Getting back at them is not getting at the fundamental problem. We must take away their cause; only then will they have nothing to fight for, and no help from their supporters.

I totally agree we should stop the ones that are funding them. Now, what if these countries that are funding them dont want to stop then what. We yell at them. No. We must us force. They are the problem here. They let these cells start-up anywhere they finance them and feed them. They need to be shut down. And force might be needed. Or at least the threat of force.

i) America gives Israel 3 billion a year to attack the Palestinians. You know, if that kind of money was given to New Zealand, we would have free education, free medical services etc. For the past several years, Palestinians have suffered as a direct result of American support for Israel. Palestine has a population of 4 million, and out of that, 3 million are refugees. They have suffered the same as the victims of Black Tuesday, I'm afraid to tell you, and have largely been ignored because the media does not report it.

I dont think this is a reason Bin Laden and his cells hate the Americans. This is an issue that isnt the foremost in there minds. They hate Americans for some twisted reason. Racism or Culture-hate. I dont know there isnt even a word for it, or maybe there is and i dont know it. But this is not because the US is backing Isreal. Well at least from what i have heard. But what i have heard is from the media. And we all know that they are blood thirsty.

ii) The UN embargo/occupation of troops in Iraq has created grief for the people of Iraq. These are innocent people; remember, not everyone in Iraq support Saddam Hussein, in fact, many abhor him.

Dont you worry Saddam is defeinitly on the short list of people or leaders to be targeted. The US didnt complete its job back in Desert Storm but they will finish it this time around. He is one of the worst out there. He hates america as much as bin Laden does. I highly doubt he was disapointed hearing about the bombings. I think he should be shut-down and removed.

This is why the Middle East hates America. They don't hate America because of the reasons Dubya and Colin Powell stated, that is, that they hate American values of freedom. Does your President take you for fools? How can he expect you to believe that that's the reason terrorists hate Americans? Sheesh, the media is trying to brainwash its own people. Don't be fooled, you are smarter than that.

Oh Thanks for clearing that up. I'll take your advice over the ones that are running the aorld most powerful counrty. OK. I dont think any of us can really tell anyone why they hate AMerica. We can all try but ultimatly we would be grasping. But dont worry i wont be fooled i am much smarter then that.

Let both Palestine and Israel have a piece of the West Bank, stop the war there. Remove U.S. troops from Iraq? (question mark placed here because I myself am not sure about this one.) Stop fueling war in the Middle East.

They cant even agree on a place to meet never mind spliting half of the most volitale piece of land in the world. Here you go Isreal and for you Palestine this...Hardly. No offense but i think it is very naive.

You are probably angry at me now and calling me an idealist. To that I will say, what is wrong with striving for Athens and not Sparta?

Angry, never. For what expressing your thoughts. Your thought are very welcome and your topic is great!!

Idealist...OH YA.

Athens ot Sparta hmmmm i think both are unacheivable at this point in history but the world i live in is great. I just would hope everyone else would relize it.



[This message has been edited by bonoman (edited 09-20-2001).]

[foray]

damn I replied bonoman but my post got lost what with the exchange of servers on interference.

foray

[bonoman]

i can understand...if you have time...

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Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

[80sU2isBest]

Welcome, Patti Jones. This is a very rough place to be sometimes, but if you've got the stomach for knock-down drag-out fighting and debate, you'll love this place.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-25-2001).]

[foray]

What is this disticntion you talk about?

Like the bumper sticker goes, I guess: "if Timothy McVeigh blew up the WTC, would you bomb Michigan?"

I totally agree we should stop the ones that are funding them. Now, what if these countries that are funding them dont want to stop then what. We yell at them. No. We must us force. They are the problem here. They let these cells start-up anywhere they finance them and feed them. They need to be shut down. And force might be needed. Or at least the threat of force.

Huh? 'These countries' = America

I dont think this is a reason Bin Laden and his cells hate the Americans. This is an issue that isnt the foremost in there minds. They hate Americans for some twisted reason. Racism or Culture-hate. I dont know there isnt even a word for it, or maybe there is and i dont know it. But this is not because the US is backing Isreal. Well at least from what i have heard. But what i have heard is from the media. And we all know that they are blood thirsty.

bonoman, I wasn't talking specifically about bin Laden and his cells. I was talking about the Middle East in general. At the time of writing this, I wasn't sure myself who were the specific culprits of the terrorists acts of Black Tuesday.
Btw, I forgot to add, there is another reason why the Middle East hates America. For one, Osama bin Laden doesn't want non-Muslims on Arabian soil; he wants the Middle East to become one huge Mecca. A non-Muslim-free zone.

Oh Thanks for clearing that up. I'll take your advice over the ones that are running the aorld most powerful counrty. OK. I dont think any of us can really tell anyone why they hate AMerica. We can all try but ultimatly we would be grasping. But dont worry i wont be fooled i am much smarter then that.

I think you got carried away with sarcasm here.

They cant even agree on a place to meet never mind spliting half of the most volitale piece of land in the world. Here you go Isreal and for you Palestine this...Hardly. No offense but i think it is very naive.

I agree that it is naive, but there must be some way to do it. Mind you, during Clinton's time, Barak and Arafat did meet, so you're incorrect on that count. The problem with Bush is that he is totally pro-Israel and anti-Palestine whereas Clinton actually seemed like he could see both points of view.


foray

[80sU2isBest]

[quote]Originally posted by foray:

. The problem with Bush is that he is totally pro-Israel and anti-Palestine whereas Clinton actually seemed like he could see both points of view.
foray

Actually, I don't think that's true. Surely you remember a couple months back, Colin Powell condemning Israel's part in the hostilities as well as the Palestinians'? I never heard Clinton do that.

[U2Bama]

You are right, 80sU2isBest, and I was hopeful (prior to the attack) that Colin Powell would have led this Administration towards a more balanced approach in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In fact, I remain somewhat hopeful due to the peace that HAS been achieved in the area since the attack, knowing that Yasser Arafat is wise enough not to strain relations with the U.S. right now.

It is not a conservative-liberal or Republican-Democrat situation, nor is it all Israelis and Palestinians. It has more to do with extreme factions on the Israeli side and on the Palestinian side, both of which have some racist-like beliefs about who "should" be there.

~U2Alabama