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Old 06-06-2003, 12:57 PM   #1
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I think we now know which Palestinians have power.

When all sides of Israeli/Palestinian conflict (including third-party outsiders) are determined to create a Palestinian state and bring about peace in the region, yet terrorist groups like Hamas "decide" to cut off talks - we know where the power lies and we know there will never be peace until these groups are eradicated. The fact that this group of terrorists were even given the opportunity to hold talks with as legitimate a leader as the Palestinians could find is a shame. The fact that the terrorists cut off talks and say things like:

"We are cutting off all dialogue with the Palestinian Authority"

it is clear they have no goal, but for terror and death and anyone who supports this point of view is as guilty as the suicide bomber who enacts their vision.

They are not trying for peace, they are not trying for diplomacy, all they want is war, and war is not the answer.

This is a true shame, but I hope it opens up some eyes.

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- The Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist group Hamas on Friday stopped talks with Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas on a possible cease-fire with Israel.

"We are cutting off all dialogue with the Palestinian Authority," said Hamas leader Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi, accusing it of trying to dictate the terms of Wednesday's peace summit in Aqaba, Jordan, to the group.

Hamas, whose military wing has been responsible for many of the recent terror attacks against Israeli civilians as well as the Israeli military, has been labeled by the U.S. State Department as a terrorist organization.

In reaction to the Hamas announcement, U.S. National Security Council spokesman Mike Anton said, "There's now a real prospect for peace. All parties agree that terrorism needs to stop and that all parties must fight terror. Those who pursue terror have made clear that they are enemies of peace."

The Palestinian Authority said it had received no formal notification from Hamas that it is stopping talks and will not accept such a stance. The authority said it will continue to carry through with its pledge to clamp down on violence, no matter what its justification may be.

Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin also said the group is cutting off dialogue with the Palestinian Authority. In recent talks, Abbas has urged Hamas accept a cease-fire and an end to attacks against Israelis.

At the historic meeting in Jordan, Abbas, U.S. President George W. Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon showed support for the Middle East road map, which sets out procedures that would lead to two states -- Israel and Palestine -- existing together in peace.

Yassin said the dialogue has been halted because of the "bad position" that ignored the status of Jerusalem and the issue of the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the region.

Using Abbas' popular name, Yassin said that "Abu Mazen gave the Jews what they did not deserve."

"I believe that Abu Mazen himself closed the door in front of Hamas because he committed himself in front of Bush and Sharon" to positions opposed by the Palestinians, said Rantissi.

A two-page Hamas leaflet passed out in Gaza Friday urged Palestinians not to accept the dictates of this week's summits in Egypt and Jordan, especially Abbas' calls for an end to the armed intifada, the uprising that began in September 2000.

The strongly worded leaflet said the United States was trying to impose its position on the Palestinians and it called on Palestinians and the Arab world to oppose such dictates.

At Wednesday's summit in Aqaba, Abbas called for an end to terrorism and Sharon pledged to remove "unauthorized outposts" from the West Bank and Gaza and do what it takes for the establishment of "a viable Palestinian state."

On Thursday, an Israeli diplomat said Israel would begin dismantling the outposts in a few days.

Speaking on CNN's "Q&A," the Israeli ambassador to the United States, Danny Ayalon, said: "We are taking concrete steps. [Israel] is going to dismantle them all. It's going to do it in a phased-out manner."

He added that the larger question of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza that have been authorized by the Israeli government "is a political issue, which will be dealt with according to agreements and understandings" in a final status agreement.

U.S. groups back road map
Meanwhile, two U.S. groups -- one Jewish and the other Arab -- have begun a joint campaign to back the Middle East peace plan.

Americans for Peace Now and the Arab American Institute will provide speakers to discuss the road map, as well as co-writing op-ed pieces and sharing "talking points" that focus on "the benefits of the initiative."

James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute, said the work reflects a "common consensus of Arab Americans and Jewish Americans for a just solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Some of the talking points include the casualties both sides have suffered, the poor economic situations in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, and public support on both sides for peace moves.

Hamas members killed
Violence continued as Israeli forces killed two Hamas members during an overnight operation near the West Bank town of Tulkarem, according to Israeli and Palestinian sources.

The Israeli soldiers were in the village of Ateil, northeast of Tulkarem, late Thursday to arrest a member of Hamas, according to the Israel Defense Forces. They approached a house where several Hamas operatives were holed up, and asked them to surrender, the IDF said.

When the operatives did not respond, the Israeli forces attacked the house and a gunfight erupted leaving two Hamas members dead and wounding a third, the IDF said.

Palestine Red Crescent Society officials said the members did not resist the Israeli forces, quoting eyewitness accounts. The IDF said Israeli soldiers found three Kalashnikov rifles and a pistol inside the house after the gun battle

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Old 06-06-2003, 04:34 PM   #2
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Heard this! I just hope that Abbas is braced for it and prepared to stay the course.


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Old 06-06-2003, 04:49 PM   #3
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It is time for Arab powers to step up and get Hamas under control.
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Old 06-06-2003, 05:49 PM   #4
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Its time that Humas be disbanded or destroyed. They have targeted and murdered more innocent civilians since 9/11 than Al Quada.
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Old 06-10-2003, 02:36 PM   #5
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I hope Abbas and Co. can get these people to stop killing innocent people. Stop terrorist attacks!
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Old 06-10-2003, 07:51 PM   #6
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Well, even though I am disgusted with Hamas disrupting the peace process and still insisting on causing more violence and death in Israel, I don't think there would ever be peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Even if a Palestinian statehood is created- which I am all for - I do not think it would cease tensions.

Palestinians have a high birth rate, and Israel has many immigrants coming into the country. With that, there would two crowded countries and both wouldn’t have enough room for their large number of people. I wouldn't be surprised if the two start fighting over land. Each would want more space, and they would definitely target each other over complaints of land space, and the violence would start up again.

I don't know. I’d like to think this won't happen, but given the extreme views of both sides, I truly doubt there would ever be peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Sometimes I think they would forever be fighting, and all these peace attempts are a complete waste of time.

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Old 06-12-2003, 09:53 AM   #7
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I fear the acceptance of the roadmap was only a temporary glimpse of hope that has been crushed ruthlessly by the events of this week. Here's an article by the Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com). Somehow, I don't think Sharon is helping it either by calling Abbas a 'crybaby' and a 'chick that hasn't grown its feathers yet'...

Third Israeli air strike against Hamas in 24 hours kills seven
Violence spirals with attacks in Jerusalem, Gaza City

By Ibrahim Barzak, Associated Press, 6/12/2003

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli helicopters fired rockets at two cars carrying Hamas activists Thursday in Gaza, the latest strikes after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon swore to hunt Palestinians militants in response to a suicide attack on a bus that killed 16 people and wounded 100.

In the third airstrike against Hamas in 24 hours, Israeli helicopters fired missiles at a car carrying activists of the Islamic militant group, killing seven people, including a young child, and wounding 29, doctors said.

Hamas said the car belonged to one of its activists. A leader of the Islamic militant group, Mahmoud Zahar, said those killed in the airstrike were Yasser Taha, a member of the Hamas military wing, Taha's wife, and the couple's two small children. A baby bottle was among the items pulled from the burning car.

The first strike early Thursday killed two low-level Hamas activists, ages 22 and 24, from a unit that guards city streets. The Israeli military said the target was a cell of Palestinians who were about to fire a mortar shell at the nearby Netzarim settlement.

The strikes came after Sharon swore to hunt Palestinian militants "to the bitter end" amid a cycle of vengeance that killed 28 people in a less than a day and wounded more than 100.

Also Thursday, the Islamic militant group Hamas issued a new threat, saying it has ordered "all military cells" to take immediate action and carry out more attacks on Israelis.

The group also urged foreigners to leave Israel and the Palestinian areas for their own safety.

In a Cabinet meeting Thursday, Sharon dismissed Palestinian leaders as "crybabies" for saying they can't use force against the militias, according to a Cabinet official briefing reporters.

Israel said it will not stand by until Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas -- described by Sharon as a "chick that hasn't grown its feathers yet" -- persuades the armed groups to halt attacks.

The spike in violence -- the Hamas bus bombing in Jerusalem and two Israeli airstrikes -- came just a week after President Bush launched a Middle East peace plan at a festive summit. Difficulties in implementing the so-called "road map" plan had been expected, but many were surprised by such a rapid return to bloodshed.

There have been deadlier days in 32 months of fighting, but despair was perhaps more keenly felt than after previous setbacks because there had been hope of a new beginning and personal involvement by Bush after last week's summit.

"Bush, too, cannot compel Hamas to stop terror," Israeli commentator Sever Plotzker wrote in the Yediot Ahronot daily. "And the all-powerful Bush cannot compel Sharon to stop the assassinations (of Palestinian militants). The cause and effect, the effect and cause, it's all jumbled. Who remembers who started?"

Bush angrily condemned the bus bombing and urged all nations to cut off financial assistance to terrorists and "isolate those who hate so much that they are willing to kill." Earlier, Bush had rebuked Sharon for the attempted killing of a Hamas founder, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, which led to threats of revenge by the group.

Hamas said in its statement Thursday that more attacks would follow.

The bus bombing "is the beginning of a new series of attacks and part of a bill the Zionists must pay," the Hamas statement said. "We call on all military cells to act immediately and act like an earthquake to blow up the Zionist entity and tear it to pieces."

The first retaliation for the botched attack on Rantisi came Wednesday afternoon, during evening rush hour on Jaffa Street, Jerusalem's main thoroughfare. An 18-year-old high school student from Hebron, Abdel Madi Shabneh, disguised as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, boarded city bus No. 14 just after it left the nearby central bus station.

Shabneh detonated the explosives strapped to his body just as the bus reached Mahane Yehuda, the city's large outdoor market. The blast lifted the bus off the pavement and tore up the roof and sides. Several passengers were hurled outside.

The bomber killed 16 people, including Alan Beer, 47, who immigrated to Israel from Cleveland several years ago.

Less than an hour later, Israeli helicopters targeted two members of the Hamas military wing as they drove in the crowded market area of a Gaza City neighborhood. The two were killed in a ball of fire, and witnesses said more missiles were fired as hundreds of bystanders ringed the burning vehicle. Seven more people were killed and 35 wounded by the second volley. Early Thursday, an Israeli rocket attack killed two low-level Hamas activists in Gaza City.

Sharon declared that though he remains committed to negotiating a peace deal, he will go after violent Palestinian groups without letup. "The state of Israel will continue to pursue the Palestinian terror organizations and their leaders to the bitter end," he said late Wednesday.

Abbas has said he will not order a crackdown for fear of sparking a civil war, and that the Palestinian Authority does not have the ability to carry out mass arrests.

In nearly three years of fighting, the Israeli military mainly attacked Palestinian security forces, even though Hamas was responsible for a majority of the bombings and shootings.

In responding to U.S. criticism to the attempt on Rantisi's life, Sharon has said that despite his commitment to the peace plan, he never promised Washington to halt his campaign against militants.

However, the Israeli strikes make it increasingly difficult for Abbas to negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas and other militant groups.

Abbas' position has been shaky from the start and has been further undermined by Israel's renewed campaign against militants. At the same time, Hamas rebuffed Abbas' initial truce proposal even before the attack on Rantisi.

Palestinian officials have said Bush had backed the Palestinians' proposal to try to persuade Hamas to lay down arms, instead of using force against the group.

The road map asks Israel to refrain from all actions that could undermine trust, but does not specifically veto targeted killings of suspected militants and Israeli incursions into Palestinian areas.

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, shunted aside in recent weeks in a U.S. peace effort, moved back to center stage, summoning reporters and reading a tough statement calling on all Palestinian factions to cease fire.

Abbas also appealed for "a full commitment from all parties to a cease-fire, to stop violence and to immediately move into a serious implementation of road map."

The bus bombing in Jerusalem went off after 5 p.m., outside the Mahane Yehuda market. Many of the wounded were pedestrians hit by flying debris.

Among those hurt was Sarri Singer, 30, a daughter of New Jersey State Sen. Robert Singer, who said she had just taken a seat on the packed bus when the explosion ripped through it.

The driver of the bus, a Palestinian from east Jerusalem, was slightly injured.

"Bombs don't distinguish between Arabs or Jews," he told Haaretz newspaper. "When a bullet is fired or a bomb explodes, people are hurt and it doesn't matter if they are Arabs or Jews."

Less than an hour after the bus bombing, Israeli helicopters fired missiles at a car in Gaza City, killing two senior Hamas operatives, Tito Massoud, 35, and Soheil Abu Nahel, 29.

Seven civilians were killed and 35 wounded, including eight children 14 and under.
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Old 06-12-2003, 01:31 PM   #8
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the whole thing is horrible, and as I have to admit Israels actions are bad, I simply do not understand how Hamas refuses to talk with the Palestinian Authority, and then bombs a bus in Jerusalem.

It makes no sense to me.

They are terrorists.

They are interested in violence for violence's sake.

They need to be destroyed.
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Old 06-12-2003, 01:35 PM   #9
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
It is time for Arab powers to step up and get Hamas under control.

It is time for Arab powers to step up and eliminate Hamas.
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Old 06-12-2003, 08:14 PM   #10
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Its impossible to kill ideas - as long as there are enough palestinensians who hate Israel (and at the moment, the Isrealis do their best to increase that number) there will be organisations like Hamas.


p.s. what do you mean by "eliminate" murder everyone who could be a hamas member?
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Old 06-12-2003, 09:22 PM   #11
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I think he means eliminate the organization known as Hamas. Hamas is much more than "an idea." Hamas is an existing organization responsible for much aggressive deadly violence. Although I should note that they commit this aggressive deadly violence in support of their "idea:" the removal (by violent force) of all "infidels" from the entire region encompassing Israel, Palestine and Lebanon. Their "idea" is NOT only the removal of "the dirty Jews" from the Gaza Strip and occupied territories.

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Old 06-12-2003, 09:28 PM   #12
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In addition to U2Bama's fine post, I would add

1. Ideas do not blow up innocent civilians

2. You don't have to look far to find people who hate Israel, it is not exclusive to Palestinians.

3. Despite statements to the contrary by Palestinian leadership condeming their activities, Hamas does not seem to struggle to find a place to live among Palestinians.
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Old 06-13-2003, 06:53 AM   #13
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Originally posted by Klaus
p.s. what do you mean by "eliminate" murder everyone who could be a hamas member? [/B]
Yes. We should kill all Hamas members. These people cannot be taught to love. They only hate and kill and the only way to stop them and protect peace, is to wipe them off the face of the Earth. I'm sure that's not a very liberal or popular point of view on this board but it's the truth. If they want Jihad, we should be happy to accommodate them.

However, after these animals are rooted out, locked up or killed, we need to give the young, male Palestinians something more to live for than blowing themselves up on a bus. That seems to be the root of the problem, no hope for a better life. Although I am strongly on Israel's side in this conflict, I believe the Israeli government could be doing more to ensure that the Palestinian people have a better future in front of them.
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Old 06-13-2003, 10:19 AM   #14
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I have to say that although that view may be a bit extreme, some of it may be valid. Take the analogy of the KKK for example. If the KKK decided to terrorize the US by bombing sites devoted to Jews, African Americans, Asians, and any other non-white group they hate, the government would absolutely do something to destroy them. Hell, we go after religious sects that we know harbour molestors, weapons caches, and criminals *cough Waco cough.* The fact is we have an organized government whereas the Palestinian Authority is just that an Authority. Look at the Port Authority, do they have the power to govern the people of New York or New Jersey? No. Until there is a government for the Palestinian people, there is no reason to believe there is any organized group that has the law or will to put down terrorist organizations like Hamas. If that is true, why shouldn't the Israelis destroy as many of these animals as they can as they simply are armed and dangerous enemies of the Israeli people. Doesn't the State of Israel have the right to coordinate their own war on terror? Why is the US the only country allowed to do so.

What is the difference between the US going after Al-Qaida and Israel going after Hamas?
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Old 06-16-2003, 09:47 PM   #15
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it's just sad...because terrorism...is just not int eh interests of the palestinians...its only hurting them...israel has an economy..it has ways to educate their ppl and oppurtunities for them
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Old 06-17-2003, 04:10 AM   #16
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Israel has an economy..it has ways to education their ppl and opportunities for them
The main reason the Palestinians don't have a strong economy or opportunities for their people is that they live under occupation. I agree terrorism is absolutely not in the interests of the Palestinian people, but equally, living under occupation is not in their interests and a peace process which demands an end to Palestinian terrorism while making no demand on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories can't be successful.

(I know you weren't suggesting that, Arun, I just used your comment as a starting point for what I wanted to say.)
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Old 06-17-2003, 10:31 AM   #17
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What economy did the Palestinians have before the "occupation"?

If neighboring Arab countries contributed to the health and welfare of Palestinians instead of providing weapons, explosives and reward money for suicide bomber families, I bet the Palestinians would be better off.
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Old 06-18-2003, 09:20 PM   #18
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It frusturates me that all these neighboring Arab/ Muslim countries don't do enough to help Palestinians recover..
My dream would be that as their is a European Union, there would be a Middle-East Union, that could be strong enough to topple destructive leaders, or help recover developing countries... Without the West butting in... But, I think we all know that in order for this to happen, each country has to achieve a certain Infrastructure level... And in order for this to happen, these governments need to prioritize their needs, build education, build health care systems, protect their water, etc. etc. Without this, their infrastructure would be weak, thus destroying their social structure... With this in mind, this would also require fair treatment by world powers in trade, aid, etc.

I agree with Klaus that even though Hamas is an organization, it is also an ideology that arises b/c of a certain comman opression... I think one mistake that the US has on the war on terrorism, is conquering terrorism through focusing on numbers rather then filling in the communication gap that is b/w the West and the Middle East.
Lets just say Hamas is disabled, then what happens, another org. will form... The reason why terrorism occurs in this world is b/c people (kids mainly) who have been opressed in a certain environment, are left with no where to go, so they are taken in by these organizations that are focused on agression ignited by ignorence... If these Kids had proper schools to go to, or families to go back home to, I could gaurantee you, that many would think twice before killing themselves along with innocent civilians. If they have EDUCATION, FREEDOM OF TRAVEL and voice, WATER, HOSPITALS, JOBS, then these people would have something to live for...
Hamas has a lot of power, but the Israeli government had the power to destroy schools, hospitals, and block water from the WB and GS... This has given the excuse for Violent organizations, such as Hamas, as to retailiate in an unexcusable manner. It has also given the chance for Hamas to bring in more kids, b/c these kids don't have schools to attend...

I only pray that some facilities can be given to the Palestinians, some sort of education, some sort of "real" support... Thus, this would call for less innocent Israelis and Palestinians to die....

A lot of people have to keep in mind that this conflict is complex, and it is not fair to take sides... Because on one side someone is suffering injustice, just as the other side... This conflict is complex, and for anyone who is willing to jump to one side, that only means that they have a lot more to learn about the conflict.


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Old 06-19-2003, 06:24 AM   #19
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It frusturates me that all these neighboring Arab/ Muslim countries don't do enough to help Palestinians recover..
My dream would be that as their is a European Union, there would be a Middle-East Union, that could be strong enough to topple destructive leaders, or help recover developing countries... Without the West butting in
And a dream it will remain. I'm assuming, which is always dangerous, that you consider Israel a 'western' country. So, 'western' intervention would be inherent. Last time I checked, Israel is in the middle east. Israel would have to be included in this union. Considering Israel isn't even on the maps of schoolchildren learning geography in the middle east, this dream union will never happen.

Also, what do you consider the OIC and OPEC(not a great example) ? they are organizations that encompass many of the middle eastern countries. and frankly, they are worthless in resolving conflict.

The communication gap that was mentioned only arises because the majority of arabs don't want to listen. or perhaps your point was that americans don't realize the arab point of view. well, considering the bombardment of media items about the middle east, i think we have a pretty good idea about the culture. in the end, we listen and we talk - america is a pluralist society. and yet, they still hate us. communication has nothing to do with terrorism.

hamas(and related org's) wants the total destruction of the jewish state and people. i don't think education and facilties will solve that problem. it'll detract supporters, but it won't solve the problem. the idea is not for less people to die - it is for no people to die.
the whole idea of justifying killing with poverty is absurd. if your argument were valid, there would be senseless suicide bombings in every poor country in the world.

bottom line - if the state of palestine were established, money will pour in. after all, if it is bad for muslims to invest in america, etc. then there surely must be a lot of money left over that can go to palestine. let's see if the arabs match talk with action/money.

nbcrusader, good call - money's got to come from somewhere to get all those guns and explosives.
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Old 06-19-2003, 09:06 AM   #20
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well put,

a quick thought this rainy morning is that it is truly unbeleivable that for any peace negotiation to take place, terrorist organizations need to be consulted.

that is like barganning with a kidnapper.

they must be ignored and eliminated.

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