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Old 04-02-2003, 08:05 PM   #21
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No it actually wasn't at you. But a couple of other posters.

We are accepting surrendering Iraqi soldiers, arming Iraqi (possible) dissenters, but can't tolerate a few off the wall dissendents in France. Of course thaey are upsetting but first we had a WWII vet handing back his medal given to him by France. Give me a break.
As to the attacks against my gov't, I'd argue that they are not unsubstantiated, or lies, or whatever. We shall have to disagree.
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Old 04-02-2003, 08:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


As to members, not posting here, I garentee you, that the ARROGANT WARMONGERS you have labeled, have disappeared in larger numbers because of some of the BIASED UNSUBSTANTIATED LIES that are posted about our servicemembers, our military, and our President.
Exatly. I was thinking about that today, how many of the people opposing the war in this forum don't really seem to be concerned about peace, but more with bashing the president wth unsubstantiated statments like "Bush doesn't care about killing civilians" and crap like that. That serves no purpose but to demonize the man.
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Old 04-02-2003, 08:08 PM   #23
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If I were a VET, and French people were desecrating the graves of my comrades who fought and died to liberate their country, at this point, my medal would be in the mail too.

Peace
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Old 04-02-2003, 08:20 PM   #24
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I will agree, desecrating graves is *not* cool and no one should have to tolerate that. Personally I am not sure I'd put my medal in the mail because not all French people are doing this madness and I'm sure not all of them approve of this at all. I can understand the anger, the hurt, and the pain at such appalling acts being committed. I still don't want to blame France, the country. The government and some of its supporters, yes. All of the people, no.
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Old 04-02-2003, 08:41 PM   #25
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I'm sorry, but since when are we (Canadians) allying ourselves with these countries? What, we aren't even allowed, as an f'n sovereign country to (horror upon horrors) disagree with the US? It's not the first time in history either, if you remember the Cuban crisis in the 60s. Canada isn't even on the security council, it has not allied itself with anybody, and said that it would not support a war unless that 2nd resolution was passed. 70%+ of Canadians don't support the war, and our Prime Minister clearly spoke for the majority. To now imply we're allied with these new evildoers is really stretching it.

Hey, I didn't say it. It was a French Canadian. Don't shoot the messenger.

And Scarletwine - you need to calm down. If any of your rant was towards me, which I don't understand why it would be, I ask you to think about this. I love France, I love to visit France, I find the people there much nicer than many Americans have a stereotype of, I don't call my French Fries Freedom Fries, I don't boycott French goods (I just had French wine and French cheese last night). But when it comes to people in France saying they would rather have Iraq win than the U.S. and Britain and Australia and there are French who are desecrating graves of soldiers that liberated their ancestors, then yes , it bothers me and should bother any American or Brit.

Also my other problem is this:

the top 4 trade nations with Iraq (in order)
1. France
2. Russia
3. Australia
4. China

Top 3 Creditor Nations of Iraq (in order)
1.France
2.Russia
3.China

3 Countries with the largest oil contracts and oil field construction contracts with Iraq.

-France
-Russia
-Germany

My gut tells me that France chose money over allies and that is a shame.

I know countries have their own political and economic interests, but sometimes you have to concede to help an ally. That's just my opinion. I don't think of myself as a warmonger, because I am quite critical of military action at any time, but it looks like anyone who thinks that force was the only unfortunate answer, has now been labeled.

And to add one thing - as strained as relations are right now, I also think that within not too long, things will get back to the way they were. And I can continue to feel comfortable visiting France.
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Old 04-02-2003, 08:59 PM   #26
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i think it's more like one in three is against america and the aggressive spreading of american imperialism.
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Old 04-02-2003, 09:03 PM   #27
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i think it's more like one in three is against america and the aggressive spreading of american imperialism.
You said it - against America. Allies aren't "against" eachother...
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Old 04-02-2003, 09:44 PM   #28
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I hope the French will be as vocal next time the Chinese and Russians kill some Tibetans or Chechnyans...
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Old 04-02-2003, 10:53 PM   #29
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EVERYONE in here needs to calm down.

Please remember that persons on both sides of this debate have their good points. We need to not call names and make assumptions, but consider all arguments independently and on their own merits. I'm talking to EVERYONE: pro- and anti-war, American and otherwise.

If this thread doesn't move past MUTUAL mudslinging ASAP, it will be closed.

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Old 04-03-2003, 04:19 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer
I hope the French will be as vocal next time the Chinese and Russians kill some Tibetans or Chechnyans...
I don't know about the French (too much Iraq war pictures in the news consume the time which would be needed for other news)

But for Germany: German foreign minister Joschka Fischer urged Russia to stop human rights violations in chechnya for example. He also spoke about human rights violations in China but i didn't see the full story so i don't know if it was about tibet or not.

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Old 04-03-2003, 04:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by womanfish


Also my other problem is this:

the top 4 trade nations with Iraq (in order)
1. France
2. Russia
3. Australia
4. China

Top 3 Creditor Nations of Iraq (in order)
1.France
2.Russia
3.China

3 Countries with the largest oil contracts and oil field construction contracts with Iraq.

-France
-Russia
-Germany
Trade: lots of those trades were because of the UN Oil for food program, Iraq could choose where to buy the Food and the Medicine.
So the sheer numbers of trade volume don't help much.
And if we look who sold which weapons (and focus on the whole time the Baath party rules this country) it looks verry different.

Debts:
as i mentioned in other threads, just because there is a regime change in Iraq i see no reason why this would automaticaly drop the debts (if it was like this it would be easy for the African countries to get rid of their debts, no reason for a "drop the debts campaign)

To the contracts the same, if a regme change changes this contracts i would begin to understand the "no blood for oil" campaign of the "PeaceNiks"

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Old 04-03-2003, 09:48 AM   #32
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Well, considering the fact that the U.S. is connected to some other countries with massive human rights violations (like China) we're not exactly clean either in the grand scheme of things. Iraq is at the forefront now for obvious reasons.
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Old 04-03-2003, 10:26 AM   #33
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I predict that in two years the U.S. and France will find something to agree on. Or maybe it will be the U.K. and France. France will recognize the post-war Iraqi government or something. The rift might not be completely forgotten but it will be mostly history. I think the Cold French War is only temporary. It's not doing anyone any good. It's bad for the U.S. It's bad for France. It will be stopped.
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Old 04-03-2003, 10:33 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Debts:
as i mentioned in other threads, just because there is a regime change in Iraq i see no reason why this would automaticaly drop the debts (if it was like this it would be easy for the African countries to get rid of their debts, no reason for a "drop the debts campaign)
True, the debts might not automatically go away, but how would the creditors enforce the debts? It's not like there is a court that would enforce repayment.

My guess is that their only hope of repayment is based on the relationship with Saddam's regime.
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Old 04-03-2003, 10:39 AM   #35
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nbcrusader:

Well they could use military force to ..
ok, sorry that was not a good joke

Imho there are lots of better ways to get your money back than to trust the word of a dictator.

For me this "logic" still seems to be invented to discredit the "peace-countries"

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Old 04-03-2003, 07:09 PM   #36
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Chirac's apology to Queen



Chirac ... apology




By DAVE MASTERS

THE QUEEN has received a letter from French President Jacques Chirac apologising for the desecration of a British War cemetery, Buckingham Palace said today.

In the letter he described the anti-war graffiti plastered over the First World War monuments at Etaples, near Calais, as "inadmissible and shameful."

A reply was being prepared on the advice of government ministers, the Palace said.

The letter, delivered to the Queen at Windsor, read: "From the French people and from me personally, I offer you my deepest regrets."

He also said the thoughts of the French were with British soldiers currently fighting in Iraq, despite recent opinion polls showing 80% of French people being opposed to war.



Sickening ... abuse sprayed on cenotaph


The letter comes a day after we reported how vandalís spray-painted insults including "Dig up your rubbish, itís contaminating our soil," at a cemetery containing the remains of 11,000 British and other allied soldiers.

Franceís Secretary of State for Veteransí Affairs, Hamlaoui Mekachera, was today travelling to Etaples for a wreath-laying ceremony of remembrance, accompanied by representatives of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
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Old 04-04-2003, 03:03 AM   #37
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baener:

that's better and more deescalating than renaming food to freedom-something
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Old 04-04-2003, 01:59 PM   #38
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I am pleased to read about the apology. I think it's honest. I don't think grave desecration is what Chirac and Co. had in mind and I'm sure they are genuinely angry and upset about this. I know I am and I'm not liking this campaign against French things that have nothing to do with war.
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