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Old 02-02-2008, 08:11 AM   #21
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How dare you suggest that people don't like Bush, Irvine.


i didn't suggest it. Bush's abysmal approval ratings since January of 2005 up to the present day and McCain's continued bashing of Rumsfeld and Cheney and his very public disagreements with the administration on their "interogation techniques" and his condemnation about the conduct of the war right up until "the surge" speaks volumes.

this is why the base hates McCain. this is why dyed-in-the-wool Bush people hate McCain. because he's been so publically different from them.

and you'll notice that not a single candidate wants to be associated with George W Bush. you hear Reagan (who, gee, had the good sense to withdraw troops from Lebanaon and then raise taxes in 1986) more than you hear Bush. and you hear Hillary more than you hear Reagan. GBW is electoral poison, and they know this.

of course, some people don't listen.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:17 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Strongbow
The vast majority of Republicans support Bush and McCain has been the biggest supporter of Bush's Iraq policy over the past year, so this support for McCain is definitely not some revolt within the Republican party against the Bush administration.
As far as the Romney position on the timetables "buzzword"......do you agree with McCain's characterization of it?

Was it a fair card to play late in the Florida race?
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:44 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i didn't suggest it. Bush's abysmal approval ratings since January of 2005 up to the present day and McCain's continued bashing of Rumsfeld and Cheney and his very public disagreements with the administration on their "interogation techniques" and his condemnation about the conduct of the war right up until "the surge" speaks volumes.

this is why the base hates McCain. this is why dyed-in-the-wool Bush people hate McCain. because he's been so publically different from them.

and you'll notice that not a single candidate wants to be associated with George W Bush. you hear Reagan (who, gee, had the good sense to withdraw troops from Lebanaon and then raise taxes in 1986) more than you hear Bush. and you hear Hillary more than you hear Reagan. GBW is electoral poison, and they know this.

of course, some people don't listen.
Bush has a much lower approval rating given the challenging and difficult task the country is in the middle of, but his approval rating is not as low as Trumans approval rating was before he left office.

Still, Bush is very popular among Registered Republicans. All of the candidates have gone out of their way at every debate to state how they support several of Bush's policies. In fact, they fiercely debate who is more supportive of his policies. So obviously this idea that not a single candidate wants to be associated with George Bush is wishfull thinking.

of course, some people are so obsessed with demonizing and reducing the stature of someone that they might miss that.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:48 PM   #24
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As far as the Romney position on the timetables "buzzword"......do you agree with McCain's characterization of it?

Was it a fair card to play late in the Florida race?
I never really looked into that. Do you have the full quote of what Romney said?
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:54 PM   #25
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I don't know any Republicans that like Bush or the party. They tell me there is no Republican party anymore. These were Regan supporters and Bush was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. His rating is lower than Nixon's. The Republican party has big problems. Right now all the Republican media is bashing McCain, and Romney is a Mormon which the Christen Right has a problem with. It should be interesting to see who gets the Republican nomination.
Now on the Democratic side it seems that Obama has a good chance to winning next Tuesday. Most of Edwards supporters and progressive Democrats are moving towards Obama. The progressive Democrats are a powerful grassroots movement in the party and they are the only reason why Howard Dean is now head of the party. I've seen lots of Obama yard signs and there were volunteers for Obama in my neighborhood today. None for Hillary or yard signs. There were lots of Republicans that showed up to see Obama yesterday in my city. There were articles that Obama is appealing to moderate Republicans including President Eisenhower's grand daughter. The media would love for Hillary to get the nomination, but too many Democrats aren't going to vote for her. Don't listen to the news, since CNN, CBS, ABC and NBC etc... aren't reporting what is going on in Democratic party meetings.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:01 PM   #26
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Every person I know who likes Bush is stubborn or ignorant, which makes complete sense, because those are Bush's two defining characteristics.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:10 PM   #27
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Originally posted by watergate
I don't know any Republicans that like Bush or the party.
Here's one right here. And I don't believe I'm stubborn or ignorant, philly.

Quote:
Originally posted by watergate
They tell me there is no Republican party anymore.
Sure there is. Both parties are going through huge transformations (or fractures- whatever you want to call it.) Regardless of the fall outcome, the Republican party will be just fine.


Quote:
Originally posted by watergate
The Republican party has big problems. Right now all the Republican media is bashing McCain, and Romney is a Mormon which the Christen Right has a problem with. It should be interesting to see who gets the Republican nomination.
I don't think McCain will have a problem with hardcore conservatives come the fall, especially if Hillary is the opponent. I have a feeling that after an entire summer of listening to her talk, the Limbaughs and Coulters of the world will have no choice but to, as Roberta McCain put it, "hold their nose" and go vote for him.

Quote:
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Obama has a good chance to winning next Tuesday. Most of Edwards supporters and progressive Democrats are moving towards Obama.
I don't think either Democrat will do well enough to "win." I think Hillary will gain more delegates.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:13 PM   #28
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And I don't believe I'm stubborn or ignorant, philly.
I'm just mentioning that about my friends who like Bush.

I think the ignorance in people following him is usually from people who don't follow politics.

Most of the Bush supporters, IMO, are just stubborn.
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Old 02-03-2008, 04:37 AM   #29
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Originally posted by Strongbow


Bush has a much lower approval rating given the challenging and difficult task the country is in the middle of, but his approval rating is not as low as Trumans approval rating was before he left office.
And thank god, eh? Your frequent mentioning of Truman is starting to get me thinking that it actually matters.
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Old 02-03-2008, 04:53 AM   #30
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Look at the plus side, if he was concerned with poll ratings his policy would be a weather vane that betrayed any supposed convictions for cheap populism, oh wait.
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:17 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


And thank god, eh? Your frequent mentioning of Truman is starting to get me thinking that it actually matters.
Yes, I don't know. Only because Bush's approval rating is slghtly above Truman's that now means Bush is loved by the majority? How does that work?
Approval ratings between 20 and 30% mean that 70 to 80% are against you. No matter what, the majority doesn't approve of you.
But maybe someone falls for that cheap trick.
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Old 02-03-2008, 07:04 AM   #32
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Romney won some primary, I just saw an email about it.
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Old 02-03-2008, 07:07 AM   #33
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Bush is stubborn and ignorant.
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Old 02-03-2008, 07:45 AM   #34
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Originally posted by Strongbow
I never really looked into that. Do you have the full quote of what Romney said?
This was an issue in the late innings of a close Florida race. The state was must-win and I think it was unfortunate that McCain threw this accusation out. Would you have been comfortable with Romney as commander-in-chief?

SIMI VALLEY, Calif. - Republican Mitt Romney accused John McCain of using dirty tricks by suggesting the former Massachusetts governor wanted a deadline for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, in a spirited debate Wednesday night that underscored the intensity of their presidential rivalry.

"I have never, ever supported a specific timetable" for withdrawing troops, Romney said. McCain's accusation on the eve of Tuesday's primary, he said, "sort of falls into the dirty tricks that I think Ronald Reagan would have found reprehensible."

McCain stuck to his guns, saying, "of course he said he wanted a timetable" for a withdrawal. McCain had made the allegation in Florida as he tried to shift the debate from the ailing economy, a stronger issue for Romney, a former venture capitalist and businessman.

Last April, Romney said U.S. and Iraqi leaders "have to have a series of timetables and milestones that they speak about" in private.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,3508375.story
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:40 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega



Approval ratings between 20 and 30% mean that 70 to 80% are against you. No matter what, the majority doesn't approve of you.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Whenever I bring up the Democratic Congress, most people here blame the Republicans for the failure to get anything done. Clearly, the Democrats are doing a superb job. It's just those pesky minority Republicans.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:01 PM   #36
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I remember an article about Democratic senators and Democratic representatives accusing each other of being responsible for the poor showing since they gained the majority, posted by U2Democrat if I recall correctly. Many posters here responded to that thread and agreed that performance of both wasn't that great, and they did so in other threads. No one there has talked of a "superb job".
However, you are ignoring some basic differences between the reasons for the disapproval of Bush on the one hand, and of the Democratic Congress on the other: Bush get's disapproved of for his very actions, and his habit to exploit his veto rights.
The Congress gets disapproved of for it's perceived inaction, which might partly be true, but is also to some extent the result of Bush's vetoes.

Also, there is a difference in the powers Bush has to "get something done", and those of the Congress consisting of hundreds of people from both parties. The minority power of the Republicans as well as the veto power of Bush certainly is an important factor why nothing gets done.

To compare both approval ratings as if they were exactly the same therefore is void.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:11 PM   #37
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Ahhh, when cooler heads prevail
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:29 PM   #38
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. Whenever I bring up the Democratic Congress, most people here blame the Republicans for the failure to get anything done. Clearly, the Democrats are doing a superb job. It's just those pesky minority Republicans.

This may be a simplistic explanation

But I believe it is basically correct


For this premise
one must accept these rough numbers

40 % of the country is Democrat or Democrat leaning

40 % are Republican or Republican leaning

20 % are true independents (go both ways)


W's support is in the 30s
All of it is from hard core Republican or Republican leaning,
he has lost 1/4 of that group, 10% the total population.


The Democratic congress support in the 20s.
Who is in this group?

None is from Republican or Republican leaning group.

Some is from Democrat or Democrat leaning,
It takes 60 votes in the Senate to move things, not a simple majority of just 51.
Many expected the Dems to be able to control the agenda.
51 votes will not do that and there are not enough GOP that will vote with them to make the 60 votes.

Many of the true independents are disappointed because they voted for change, too.

Congress approval is in the 20s.

The public wants less of the Republican and W agenda, not more.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:48 PM   #39
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This was an issue in the late innings of a close Florida race. The state was must-win and I think it was unfortunate that McCain threw this accusation out. Would you have been comfortable with Romney as commander-in-chief?

SIMI VALLEY, Calif. - Republican Mitt Romney accused John McCain of using dirty tricks by suggesting the former Massachusetts governor wanted a deadline for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, in a spirited debate Wednesday night that underscored the intensity of their presidential rivalry.

"I have never, ever supported a specific timetable" for withdrawing troops, Romney said. McCain's accusation on the eve of Tuesday's primary, he said, "sort of falls into the dirty tricks that I think Ronald Reagan would have found reprehensible."

McCain stuck to his guns, saying, "of course he said he wanted a timetable" for a withdrawal. McCain had made the allegation in Florida as he tried to shift the debate from the ailing economy, a stronger issue for Romney, a former venture capitalist and businessman.

Last April, Romney said U.S. and Iraqi leaders "have to have a series of timetables and milestones that they speak about" in private.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,3508375.story


So what exactly did Romney mean by a "timetable"? It is very suggestive of the Democrats general strategy in Iraq and the word timetable had never been used to refer to anything other than troop withdrawals or unrealistic progress for the Iraqi government, economy, and military. Rebuilding a country the size of Iraq and defeating an insurgency requires years if not decades and will involve plenty of setbacks.

Romney has flipped flopped on issues like Abortion so I'm not sure if this was an attempt by Romney to cater to independents or some Democrats for the general election in the fall. Its certainly no worse than the thousands of attack adds that Romney launched against McCain and refering to John McCain as a "liberal"? Romney used over 5,000 adds against McCain in Florida while McCain was only able to put up 470. I'd say the little arguement about this had nothing to do with the results of the election was was pretty much sealed when McCain got his endorsements. If anything, what McCain said might have backfired a little bit if the charge was seen as being unfair.

I'd vote for Romney over any of the Democrats as well as Ron Paul and few of the other Republican 2008 candidates who dropped out and maybe Huckabee as well.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:57 PM   #40
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Yes, I don't know. Only because Bush's approval rating is slghtly above Truman's that now means Bush is loved by the majority? How does that work?
Approval ratings between 20 and 30% mean that 70 to 80% are against you. No matter what, the majority doesn't approve of you.
But maybe someone falls for that cheap trick.
Bush's approval rating is not just slightly higher than Turmans, it is 50% higher! Truman had an approval rating of 22% in 1952, Bush in January had an approval rating of 34%. Bush's disapproval rating is NOT 70% to 80% it is 60%.

More importantly, when it comes to elections, even someone who does not approve of the job you have done may vote for you when the see the other candidate. So how Bush would do in a General election in 2008 is much better than simply his approval rating.
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