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Old 11-14-2009, 11:35 PM   #961
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Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes View Post
and she's got something around her neck, did she actually win a medal for this?
hopefully it's a noose
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:36 PM   #962
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There's good news for...well...someone. Man on horse sex is still acceptable.
That was funny. Good one!

I would like to point out - we all could post pics of the extreme edges of our viewpoints - sort of an appeal to emotion tactic.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:37 PM   #963
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These pictures are ridiculous. I certainly hope it isn't implied that I am a proponent of such teaching/thinking.
No, but it is for many... So when we discuss slippery slopes, here's the other side.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:38 PM   #964
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Actually, this is pretty much the civil de facto of straight marriage right now as phillyfan noted.
Agreed, and I think you will find that the Catholic Church (the main church in this discussion) makes divorce much more difficult.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:38 PM   #965
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That was funny. Good one!

I would like to point out - we all could post pics of the extreme edges of our viewpoints - sort of an appeal to emotion tactic.


but do you see, AEON, when you describe my relationship with Memphis as "homosexual behavior" you're reducing me in a manner similar to those science fair kids.

i am a person, not an act. i don't see what possible harm we would bring to the institution of marriage.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:39 PM   #966
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Agreed, and I think you will find that the Catholic Church (the main church in this discussion) makes divorce much more difficult.


no it doesn't. the state grants divorces, two catholics can get a divorce as easily as two atheists. they might not be divorced in the eyes of the church, but what's the church going to do?
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:45 PM   #967
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not even getting into how i feel about this, this is just factually incorrect. and she's got something around her neck, did she actually win a medal for this?
I also wonder to what extent this young lady went on the "Procedure" and "Observations" part of the project...
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:45 PM   #968
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i don't see what possible harm we would bring to the institution of marriage.

No one here has fully explained it yet.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:46 PM   #969
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I also wonder to what extent this young lady went on the "Procedure" and "Observations" part of the project...
I'm sure her church gave her all the information she'd ever need.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:48 PM   #970
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hopefully it's a noose
gotta give props to narrow-minded parents teaching their children lies. maybe when they're older and less impressionable they'll come to realize the truth (again, i'm not getting into what i think vs. others, just facts about aids transmission).
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:48 PM   #971
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No one here has fully explained it yet.


it's the double-banana nut fudge cake we make.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:51 PM   #972
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it's the double-banana nut fudge cake we make.
LOL.




fcl
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:04 AM   #973
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but do you see, AEON, when you describe my relationship with Memphis as "homosexual behavior" you're reducing me in a manner similar to those science fair kids.

i am a person, not an act. i don't see what possible harm we would bring to the institution of marriage.
Seriously, I do apologize. I do not mean to offend you by saying "homosexual behavior" instead of "homosexual". I happen to agree with the Catholic Church's view that being a homosexual is not a sin, but acting it out is. I don't fully understand why God creates the desire - then forbids it. But I can say that about a great many desires. It goes all the way to the beginning of mankind's relationship with God - desiring what is forbidden.

It has been my observation - that over time - God's wisdom prevails both personally, and socially. I concede that Melon's interpretations regarding the Bible's stance on homosexuality may be correct, and I always pray that the Holy Spirit will open my eyes and heart to the actual meaning of any passage, not just the ones concerning homosexuality.

As it stands now, it just seems that if the Bible genuinely wanted to make an exception for homosexuality (and as many have pointed out, there were certainly homosexuals in Biblical times) then there would be more written about it. Every instance of homosexuality written in the Bible is portrayed in a negative light. It would seem - that if God did intend to permit loving gay marriages - there would be at least one example and just a tad bit of wisdom thrown their way on how to be a good loving gay married couple.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:06 AM   #974
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they might not be divorced in the eyes of the church...
that was my point
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:12 AM   #975
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Seriously, I do apologize. I do not mean to offend you by saying "homosexual behavior" instead of "homosexual". I happen to agree with the Catholic Church's view that being a homosexual is not a sin, but acting it out is. I don't fully understand why God creates the desire - then forbids it. But I can say that about a great many desires. It goes all the way to the beginning of mankind's relationship with God - desiring what is forbidden.

It has been my observation - that over time - God's wisdom prevails both personally, and socially. I concede that Melon's interpretations regarding the Bible's stance on homosexuality may be correct, and I always pray that the Holy Spirit will open my eyes and heart to the actual meaning of any passage, not just the ones concerning homosexuality.

As it stands now, it just seems that if the Bible genuinely wanted to make an exception for homosexuality (and as many have pointed out, there were certainly homosexuals in Biblical times) then there would be more written about it. Every instance of homosexuality written in the Bible is portrayed in a negative light. It would seem - that if God did intend to permit loving gay marriages - there would be at least one example and just a tad bit of wisdom thrown their way on how to be a good loving gay married couple.


AEON, i'm not going to tell you how to believe, but doesn't this seem like extremely shaky grounds upon which to deny people -- believers, non-believers, different religions alike -- fairly basic civil rights?
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:12 AM   #976
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And there it is again. You, and obviously many others, believe that God says it is a sin and therefore society shouldn't allow them to get married.

Please tell me why one religion - or any religion - should be able to dictate this?

Despite your well-written posts (which are appreciated, even in the midst of the snide comments that are often just born of frustration), we're still at the same spot we seem to always end up at: another faith-based reason as to "why not."

It makes no sense to me, and just makes me incredibly sad and frustrated.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:12 AM   #977
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that was my point
and my point too.

we're only talking about the state. churches can do what they like.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:13 AM   #978
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That was funny. Good one!

I would like to point out - we all could post pics of the extreme edges of our viewpoints - sort of an appeal to emotion tactic.
It was inteneded to be.

And the photos were pretty obviously parody (aren't they? ) -- I mean, Man-on-Horse sex and Do Minorities get into Heaven? Come on these can't be real...can they?
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:15 AM   #979
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You made an interesting comment above. You said “if society deems this prudent” – is that a general allowance or specific to this point about divorce?
There is a traditional distinction between law and inalienable rights, all the more highlighted by the creation of the Bill of Rights over two centuries ago and continuing court precedent standing on the side of civil rights. I do not believe that society has the right to discriminate against classes of people--in other words, the civil and equal rights of a minority should not, morally speaking, be subject to a vote. We should remember that black civil rights, for instance, were not achieved by popular vote; the Reconstruction-era amendments only passed the former Confederate states because it was mandatory for readmission into the Union, with much of the remainder of progress only achieved through court cases and Congressional laws.

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If this is true – wouldn’t that reinforce the argument against gay marriage here in America? If religion is a “ritualization” of the culture’s values – and religion forbids gay marriage – then the cultures’ values are against gay marriage. And if Christianity is practiced differently around the world, and all those practices are valid – then doesn’t that make our version of Christianity also valid?
Of course, the trap one gets into is that of cultural relativism. Is something "right" or "wrong" just because it's a traditional and widely held belief? I'm reminded of the disconnect between U.S. condemnation of female circumcision in Africa and enthusiastic support for male circumcision. In both circumstances, both practices are justified out of traditional habit, rather than out of any rational reasoning. But, frankly, I don't care how many people support it, because I think that a most substantive moral argument can be made against unnecessary surgeries against those who are unable to consent.

But I digress. Arguing that religion is the "ritualization of culture" should, frankly, evoke contemplation and humility in an institution generally known for unabashed dogmatic statements. Should "social morality" (in contrast to "personal morality") be based on something as potentially arbitrary as religious mores, especially considering its poor track record on issues of civil rights historically speaking? Instead, this is where I defer to Western philosophy and its methods of logic and reason. For me, the philosophical heritage of the U.S. and the Western world makes gay marriage a no-brainer in favour of equality.

As an aside, as an example of differing prescriptions according to social and personal mores, I do not like abortion and nor would I advocate it. However, from a societal standpoint, is it permissible to force a woman to bare a child against her will, especially considering the stigma often attached to pregnancy? In the spirit of personal freedom, I tend to err on the side of pro-choice for social considerations.

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Is this statement descriptive or prescriptive? Are you saying that marriage should reflect the cultural values or just happens to follow the cultural values? Either way, great point. I think you can see why people are choosing gay marriage as the “battleground” so to speak. If marriage is representative of the culture’s values – then allowing gay marriage is a reflection that the culture has accepted homosexual behavior as nothing inappropriate. If gay marriage remains as it is – then the culture has still not completely accepted homosexual behavior as appropriate. Interesting…
Irvine hit one point on the nail: we're not a "behaviour"; we're people.

Just to clarify, religion "just happens" to follow cultural values, and I optimistically believe that those values are of life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and equality. And I believe that's where the majority of people are heading, even if the institutional church is generally heading in the opposite direction.

I do think that, while gay marriage is a "battleground," it is merely symptomatic of a larger problem in the United States. For one, it was noted that the unifying feature of American culture, in absence of ethnic unity, is material wealth. That is, as long as the money flows, Americans are happy and unified; but, progressively over the last 30 years, starting from the "Rust Belt" to a nationwide phenomenon presently, the success that has defined the "American Dream" is no longer guaranteed. And without that guarantee, the American public is starting to resort to infighting, much of which I believe to be misdirected and unproductive. Of course, much of this is starting to resemble Arnold Toynbee's theories on societal collapse, which is a whole other can of worms. Basically, homosexuals have as much relevance to current societal turmoil as Jews had on the origin of the Black Death in the Middle Ages--a popular, but irrelevant scapegoat.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:38 AM   #980
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And there it is again. You, and obviously many others, believe that God says it is a sin and therefore society shouldn't allow them to get married..
Do you not accept Melon's view that the religion is essentially the "ritualization" of the culture's values? Meaning, my beliefs about homosexuality - as taught through my religion are actually a reflection of the values taught by my culture. Hence, it is today's culture, not my religion, that is the true source of my opinion on gay marriage - which is to oppose it.

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Please tell me why one religion - or any religion - should be able to dictate this?
Cultural values are constantly debated and fought over be every ideology and belief system. Why should secular humanism dictate views? Or communism? Or fascism? It is, and always be, a work in progress.

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Despite your well-written posts (which are appreciated, even in the midst of the snide comments that are often just born of frustration), we're still at the same spot we seem to always end up at: another faith-based reason as to "why not."
would you accept a scientific reason? Would a scientist even dare try to do a neutral study on this in today's political climate? Would anyone even accept the outcome if it did point against gay marriage? I think these are fair questions.

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It makes no sense to me, and just makes me incredibly sad and frustrated.
I fear this is the case for both sides of the argument.
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