Does Violence Solve Anything?

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melon

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It's a question I'd surely like to pose. But think about it...

1) World War I was supposed to be the "war to end all wars." It very well could have been, but the victors insisted on punishing Germany with the Treaty of Versailles (U.S. President Woodrow Wilson was opposed to this vengeance, and the Republican-controlled Congress rejected the treaty anyway, so you can't blame the U.S. for this one!). Imperialist Russia falls in the aftermath, leaving it prey to the Russian Revolution and the rise of Communism. As a result, with hyperinflation and humiliation during the ill-fated Weimar Republic, Adolf Hitler was able to rise...

2)...which led to World War II. Undoubtedly, this was a justified war, as all attempts for peace were tried before it turned into a war. However, with the end of this war, it led to a resumption of animosity between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, which refused to give back the territory it "liberated" from Nazi occupation...

3)...which leads to the Cold War, with the first test being the Korean War. With the Truman Doctrine of Containment, it was established that the U.S. would get involved in any case where communism tried to expand, and, boy, did that lead to a lot of wars! This conflict is still not technically over, with a nearly 50 year armistice...

4)...which leads into the Vietnam War, which officially started in 1957. This war probably made the least sense, especially since we were trying to keep a South Vietnamese dictator in power that was likely to lose a national reunification election to Ho Chi Minh. Hence, even the people they were supposed to protect hated the U.S. involvement, and was just a long prolonging of the inevitable, as the U.S. pulls out of Vietnam in 1973 and South Vietnam falls in 1975, reunifying by force, rather than election...

5) ...which leads to then Gov. Ronald Reagan, who, perhaps as a result, calls for militarism against the Soviets. He doesn't go this far as President, but, perhaps more than any other president, he follows Truman's Policy of Containment very closely, getting involved in everything from toppling Grenada to Guatemala to El Salvador to Nicaragua's "leftist" governments, and also funding militants to expel the Soviets from Afghanistan, which did include Osama bin Laden. Reagan also gets involved in arming and funding Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War, while also, arguably, arming Iran at the same time. He also establishes a series of civilian "militias," which are established to protect the U.S. in case the National Guard is exhausted in a prolonged nuclear attack...

6) ...which leads to President Bush, Sr. with the Gulf War. In the process, bin Laden is angered at what he sees as "desecration" of sacred Islamic sites, and vows to spend his energy and money destroying the U.S. In the meantime, Saddam Hussein, dictator of Iraq, is still in power, despite losing the war...

7) ...which leads to President Clinton having to take care of the mess, and being the president forced to take care of bin Laden's emerging terrorism, bombing both Sudan and Afghanistan after bin Laden's syndicate bombs the World Trade Center in 1993 and U.S. embassies in Africa a few years later. All in the meantime, a Gulf War / Waco scarred, Timothy McVeigh, and a militia member, Terry Nichols, blows up a federal building in Oklahoma City to strike against what they see as a "repressive government"...

8) ...which leads to September 11th. Islamic terrorists hijack four commercial jets, destroying the World Trade Center twin towers (finishing off a previous miscalculation by bin Laden, who did try to destroy the towers in 1993) and crashing into the Pentagon, after previously targeting the White House, but realizing that the President is not there. Prime suspects include bin Laden and the Afghani Taliban, with possible connections to Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein...

9) ...which leads to current calls for "revenge" against the terrorists, and my current fears that the cycle of violence will perpetuate itself further, as we are still paying for the wars of the past, and even World War I was the result of previous wars and anger (but for time purposes, I started the trace from WWI). Like every previous war, we, perhaps naively, expected it to be the "war to end all wars," but then learning that it spawns yet another one. It is my sincere hope that the U.S. only takes appropriate steps to secure its defense, without escalating it unnecessarily out of vengeance, which seems very tempting right now, understandably. However, it is our obligation to our future generations that we try and stop the cycle here. Perhaps at no time in history could such a prospect be possible, with recent unity amongst the West and even cooperation amongst moderate Islamic nations. It is my hope that we don't blow it out of revenge. We should strive for "justice," rather than "retribution."

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 09-16-2001).]
 
melon,

All very logical points. In this case, however, the only means of achieving true justice, is through retribution. Do you have a better alternative for us? Please enlighten me.


AJ
 
Melon,

War is not a 20th century phenomenon. (I'm sure this point was pretty obvious to you too.) The Arab-Israeli conflict, for example, has roots that date back thousands of years.

As long as we have enemies, the sad fact will remain that "the art of war is of vital importance to the state."
 
Selective targeting to obliterate all known bin Laden operations in all nations it is involved in, currently including Algeria, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Civilian causalties should be limited.

Intelligence gathering from U.S. and Pakistani sources (who claims to know his exact location) to locate bin Laden. Fix high-tech spy satellites on this location and watch his every movement (which, I'm sure is happening now). Send in an appropriate military force to apprehend him, put him on trial, and let him rot in prison. Executing or killing him will only strengthen both his resolve (death in a Holy War is automatic Heaven according to traditional Islam) and his followers' resolve, who will surely exact revenge. Letting him rot in prison will demoralize everyone who followed him.

Keep a military force in place near or around Afghanistan, Sudan, and Algeria to watch for possible retaliations. If provoked, send in air strikes to obliterate all Taliban government strongholds (which should be known via spy satellite gathering). The U.S. should then occupy Afghanistan and rebuild it, not so unlike what it did to Japan after World War II. Letting it lay obliterated will only anger; however, do allow input from cooperative Islamic nations to prevent anger from them.

Civilian casualities should be as minimal as possible, and justice should be served.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
Originally posted by melon:
Selective targeting to obliterate all known bin Laden operations in all nations it is involved in, currently including Algeria, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Civilian causalties should be limited.

Intelligence gathering from U.S. and Pakistani sources (who claims to know his exact location) to locate bin Laden. Fix high-tech spy satellites on this location and watch his every movement (which, I'm sure is happening now). Send in an appropriate military force to apprehend him, put him on trial, and let him rot in prison. Executing or killing him will only strengthen both his resolve (death in a Holy War is automatic Heaven according to traditional Islam) and his followers' resolve, who will surely exact revenge. Letting him rot in prison will demoralize everyone who followed him.

Keep a military force in place near or around Afghanistan, Sudan, and Algeria to watch for possible retaliations. If provoked, send in air strikes to obliterate all Taliban government strongholds (which should be known via spy satellite gathering). The U.S. should then occupy Afghanistan and rebuild it, not so unlike what it did to Japan after World War II. Letting it lay obliterated will only anger; however, do allow input from cooperative Islamic nations to prevent anger from them.

Civilian casualities should be as minimal as possible, and justice should be served.

Melon


Very good sir. Will you be submitting this report to the Joint Chiefs of Staff?
 
I am but a humble liberal artist. The government doesn't listen to it's own people.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
The only language a terrorist understands is Aggression.
10 years ago, when a certain Administration took over, the Military started "Down-Sizing." They incorporated sensitivity training so we could have a "Kind-dler and Gentle-tler" military to attract the new generation of soft/slacker youth. All the while, these terrorists were over in the desert eating scorpions and buring the American Flag. WE're spoiled! We're no were near as tough as our parents and Granparents were and had to be.
If we don't respond swiftly and harshly, we are going to start losing pieces of the Freedom Puzzle. What's the Freedom Puzzle?

Being able to express freely, are opinions on this Forum. Walking out of are dwellings with no paranoia, carefree with a sense security. Having the choice to strive for financial, religious, and/or sociological excellence. Etc, etc, etc!

And this is not just a US problem! There were many other countries that suffered loses. Britain lost over 300 countrymen.

This is and is going to be a NATO extermination of terrorism. Right now as we speak CIA, NSA, FBI, French Foreign Legion, British Intelligence, Special Forces, NATO Special Forces, and Etc. are in action. Laying down the foundation and doing the homework so we(US,NATO) can go kick BUTT!

So what am I trying to say?

Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion.......................................................................................of course as long as you have the right(or is it a luxury??
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) to express it.

Thank you for your time,
Andrew Alexander, FC2(SW), U.S. Navy

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GOD BLESS AMERICA
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U2 is the best Band Ever!
 
Originally posted by speedracer:
The Arab-Israeli conflict, for example, has roots that date back thousands of years.

Actually, the current one dates from 1947, the day Israel was declared a state.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
melon,

I agree with your plan in principle. I do not want innocent civilians to die for the actions of their disgusting countrymen. The question that arises, though, involves feasability.

Originally posted by melon:
Selective targeting to obliterate all known bin Laden operations in all nations it is involved in, currently including Algeria, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Civilian causalties should be limited.


"All known bin Laden operations". How much do we really know about where this guy keeps his terrorist cells? My guess is not enough. By their nature, they are decentralized and well hidden. I think that ferreting out all of his operations in all nations will be an extremely difficult process. Plus, we must consider the fact that he could have access to nuclear weaponry, which really complicates our strategy.

I agree with you about our satellite usage. We should use every bit of technology we have against them.

Keep a military force in place near or around Afghanistan, Sudan, and Algeria to watch for possible retaliations. If provoked, send in air strikes to obliterate all Taliban government strongholds (which should be known via spy satellite gathering). The U.S. should then occupy Afghanistan and rebuild it, not so unlike what it did to Japan after World War II. Letting it lay obliterated will only anger; however, do allow input from cooperative Islamic nations to prevent anger from them.

Don't you think Afghanistan will fight with everything they have to prevent us from occupying their country. I do not see how we can occupy them without doing some serious damage. They will not say, "sure, come right in". They will fight us to the death. I would love to avoid civilian casualties, but I just do not see the occupation of Afghanistan as a peaceful process. When one country comes into another, and the government is opposed to the idea, things get messy and people die. These are realities we must live with, no matter how inhumane they make us appear.


AJ

[This message has been edited by Hawk269 (edited 09-16-2001).]
 
Originally posted by melon:
Actually, the current one dates from 1947, the day Israel was declared a state.

Melon


Well, the reason Israel plonked down in the land of Palestine, and not at the South Pole or some unoccupied chain of islands in the South Pacific, is because Palestine is the land that they believe God promised them in ancient times, right?
 
That is true, but there was little violence between the few Jews and Christians left in Palestine and the Arabs before 1947. It was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 1920s, and was occupied by the British until 1947. The Jews in Israel today are mostly Europeans, whose original tribes converted in the Dark Ages. Hence why Jews have a "certain look."

Anyway, getting back on track, the anger in Palestine is mostly due to the seizure and lack of payment to Arabs who held the land before 1947 (remember that the Arabs had "owned" that land for nearly 1000 years before Israel came in), the immediate annexation of Jerusalem (which was a U.N. administed, independent city in the original Israel charter), the militaristic expansionism that Israel did (which included Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula at its height), and also the fact that Israel continues to establish Jewish "settlements" in Arab territory.

I do believe that Israel has a right to exist, believe me, and should be defended from terrorism, but a lot happened in the last century to get to the hotbed of violence it is today.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
Originally posted by melon:
Selective targeting to obliterate all known bin Laden operations in all nations it is involved in, currently including Algeria, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Civilian causalties should be limited.

Intelligence gathering from U.S. and Pakistani sources (who claims to know his exact location) to locate bin Laden. Fix high-tech spy satellites on this location and watch his every movement (which, I'm sure is happening now). Send in an appropriate military force to apprehend him, put him on trial, and let him rot in prison. Executing or killing him will only strengthen both his resolve (death in a Holy War is automatic Heaven according to traditional Islam) and his followers' resolve, who will surely exact revenge. Letting him rot in prison will demoralize everyone who followed him.

Keep a military force in place near or around Afghanistan, Sudan, and Algeria to watch for possible retaliations. If provoked, send in air strikes to obliterate all Taliban government strongholds (which should be known via spy satellite gathering). The U.S. should then occupy Afghanistan and rebuild it, not so unlike what it did to Japan after World War II. Letting it lay obliterated will only anger; however, do allow input from cooperative Islamic nations to prevent anger from them.

Civilian casualities should be as minimal as possible, and justice should be served.

Melon


Your plan is laughable at best. No offense. How could anyone think of imprisonment. You cannot arest this man. He has men around him at all times. If there is a major chance that he will be taken alive they are instructed to shoot him in the head. And IF, and a big If that is, they ever did arrest him his groups would respond in taking and american or NATO countrtmen hostage and demand the release of Bin LAden.

Send in an appropriate military force to apprehend him, put him on trial, and let him rot in prison.
Much easier said then done. Immpossible IMHO.

Bin Laden isnt the whole problem. He is a figure head. A 'bank' per say. If he were to be killed there would be ten more 'Bin Ladens' to take his place and ten more after them. The problem is the countries that harbor them. If they have no place to live and hide they cannot operate. If any country has knowledge of any terrorist group that threatens the lively hood of innocent people then they should notify NATO, UN. If not military action should be taken on them, or sanctions. Heavy sanctions.

Your idea of occupying Afgan. is very naive. How could a country be over run by Christains and Jews when the people are for religous run states. They would fight till death. It would complcate everything. It would cause more, much more innocent deaths. This would incite the real Holy Wars. It then becomes life or death to these people.


There needs to be swift and powerful actions. I can say that IMHO that there will be more attacks on America or other countries. If we think WTC is bad wait till we see the chemical bombs. Something will happen and it will be far worse then WTC. If we think for a second that whoever planned this isnt prepared to strike again then we are blind or to naive to see the truth. Going into this attack these terrorists knew the destruction that they were going to cause. If there planned had worked to a tee the WTC's would have fallen on impact and killed 30000 people. And if the planes in DC didnt crash the white house and-or camp david would have been hit. They already have a plan set for the next attack. It's just a matter of time. I pray to God i am wrong.

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Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono
 
My fear over attacking Afghanistan is that we will share the fate of the Soviet Union--a ten year conflict that they completely lost and contributed to their bankruptcy in 1991.

The difference, though, is that an occupation could work, as the public does not support the Taliban, and you don't have a world superpower funding the enemy, like how the U.S. funded the Soviet opposition. If you destroy the Taliban government, most resistance would likely fall apart this time around, but I fear I might be underestimating the nation that even Soviet armies could not conquer...

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
nothing much to say i guess........
except thanks melon (((((hugs))))
 
Melon,

Wasn't the results of World War II better than what would have been the results if we had not entered the war, which would have been Hitler ruler of the world basically. It is no secret that when Hitler would have invaded the United States when he was done with Europe and the entrance of the United States was the main thing that stopped him from achieving that first directive. Of course we didn't break free from all troubles after World War II, I don't think that is even possible when dealing with war in any sense, but what would you have rather chosen: Entrance into World War II or not? I know you said it was justifiable and everything but you still make it like it just led onto more problems when it did not, yes, disolve all problems but it did make the world a much better place to live. Isn't that attaining more peace? Something reasonable to hope for when dealing with the violence and bloodshed that all war has to offer?

~rougerum
 
The main point of this post regarding World War II was that it could have been prevented had the WWI victors not insisted on "revenge." While justified, the nature of WWII did lead to more problems, while also solving the problems arising out of WWI.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
Melon- I really like everything that you have had to say, you are a very intelligent person, and I wish that more Americans had the same levle headedness, and ability to put things in perspective as you. I am always oblivious how at times like this people can forget about part attrocities and actions, is this because they simply do not know or they choose to forget???? Hopefully by what you say and post here you might just enlighten and inform a few more as to the political climates that have contributed to past attrocities in the world........
 
I dream of and pray for world peace; maybe we will attain it one day.

But in the meantime, I would be willing to strike a fist at someone in order to free the slaves in Sudan, or to topple the theocratic rule of the Taliban, or to bring to justice the fools who struck at innocent civilians.

Sometimes you have to use force, which may mean physical violence, to bring about justice.

Osama bin Laden is not against the U.S. for any specific acts of violence we have commited; he is against us because according to his mis-interpreted, fanatical view of the Qu'ran, no one other than Muslims should be allowed in the Arabian peninsula, including Saudi Arabia and parts of Israel. He doesn't want a peaceful settlement between Israeli Jews and Palestinians; he wnats people of the Jewish faith completely OUT of the area; the minority Christian population of Palestinians (who currently side with the Palestinians if they take a side at all) will then be left, which he and his fanatics would then coerce or exterminate. He would likely remove any governements which are friendly to non-Muslims, such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia, and place Taliban-type governments in their place.

~U2Alabama
 
Originally posted by melon:
The main point of this post regarding World War II was that it could have been prevented had the WWI victors not insisted on "revenge." While justified, the nature of WWII did lead to more problems, while also solving the problems arising out of WWI.

Melon

I agree with OzAurora to a point. Melon, you definitely remember your history and you express your OPINION with great intellect. But, facts are facts and ideologies from the past are just each individuals interpretation of history. YES/NO?

If we had not have done this, this would not have happened. If we would have done this better, the world could be like this.

Could of, would of, should of!

We can't change the past but, yes we can learn from it.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
:-:George Bernard Shaw:-:

I have an Irish friend who also serves in his country's military, in Northern Ireland. Although, he hastens to admit not "in the front line" but nevertheless IN there when it was dirty. He has seen terrorism at first hand and he said, "believe me, you cannot negotiate with the terrorist - it is something against what they think they are doing." He has been car bombed, had mortar shells fired at him, and lost comrades. Two were part of bomb disposal - they died protecting an ordinary person on the street, all the while, the perpetrator of the murder was standing in a bar in the Republic, drinking and laughing with his Contemporary's about how well they did today.
Diplomacy is always the best solution but, in some cases, and especially this one, no amount of diplomacy will work. Diplomacy, in the minds of these extremists, is a gun of the feeble-minded. I applaud your sentiments Melon, as we in the free world, are entitled to Free Speech and Freedom of Thought. The Terrorist does not like that; he/it wants it THEIR WAY OR BLOW THE PLANET UP!

Unfortunately, the best terrorist is a dead one - and I don't care how many "martyrs" are created; martyrs cannot kill again. If America allows terrorism to win in this case, then we can kiss democracy and your basic freedom goodbye.

Thank you for your time,
GO NAVY!

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GOD BLESS AMERICA
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[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 09-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 09-18-2001).]
 
Hi I didn't want to start a new thread on this; just wanted to show you something I got from U2sound mail group:

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <u2rocks2001us@yahoo.com>
An: <u2sound@yahoogroups.com>
Gesendet: Montag, 17. September 2001 13:28
Betreff: [u2sound] Osama bin Laden......


> ......Is Jesus Christ. Jesus said he would return and he did!
> Everyone pray to him. The Anti-Christ, George Bush is now going to
> start Armageddon just like the bible explained would happen. Please
> everyone.....pray to our saviour Osama bin Laden and ask forgivness
> of your sins.


foray
 
Well done whammy.

I agree with you. Diplomacy will not solve this type of terrorism. I truly believe that these people are religious fanatics who value reason the same way they value innocent life - not at all.

There is no historic could have, should have, monday morning quarterbacking to be done right now. This is not a negotiation over a table, where there is a give and take and a logical argument between reasonable people. We are dealing with barbarians and cowards with nothing to lose except their lives, which is glorious for them when it is for Allah. Welcome to reality.


AJ
 
In reply to foray's post, it would probably be worthwhile to send that to the proper authorities. Couldn't hurt anything.
 
The sad thing about this war is that you cannot WIN it, even though Mr. Bush wants us to believe that. OK, maybe you can get Bin Laden (presuming that he is responsible) and some othe members of the organisation behind this attack. But have you won then????
The members of the organisations already are saints in the eyes of those whgo support them, capturing them will probably only make them marters too, but it won't stop the movement. Also they know that the damage they have inflicted is much larger than the damage the US would inflict to them if they catch those people. You could also retaliate by using even greater methods of terror on them: simple revenge (i.e. turning Kabul into a parking lot). This however would also be a really cruel and stupid thing to do for a few reasons.
As a civilized country you can't just kill numerous of innocent people, it is unjust in every way.
Also, this will only create more hatred against the USA also among more moderate people. You'll lose the goodwill of many people/countries and the anti-US movement will grow much and much larger within the entire islamic region (and also within non-islamic regions/countries)



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Vorsprung durch Technik
 
Originally posted by whammy:
I agree with OzAurora to a point. Melon, you definitely remember your history and you express your OPINION with great intellect. But, facts are facts and ideologies from the past are just each individuals interpretation of history. YES/NO?

A psychologist once told me that we should omit all of our statement before the word "but," because anything before that is just hiding contempt. Apparently, by what you have written, you disagree with what I wrote? Part of #8 and #9 is my opinion, but the rest is factual.

If we had not have done this, this would not have happened. If we would have done this better, the world could be like this.

Could of, would of, should of!


You are quite right. Hindsight is 20/20.

We can't change the past but, yes we can learn from it.

Hmm...do you think that that might be the point of my post here? Of course, I'm not naive. We'll never learn.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
:-:George Bernard Shaw:-:

Then call me forever unreasonable.

I have an Irish friend who also serves in his country's military, in Northern Ireland. Although, he hastens to admit not "in the front line" but nevertheless IN there when it was dirty. He has seen terrorism at first hand and he said, "believe me, you cannot negotiate with the terrorist - it is something against what they think they are doing." He has been car bombed, had mortar shells fired at him, and lost comrades. Two were part of bomb disposal - they died protecting an ordinary person on the street, all the while, the perpetrator of the murder was standing in a bar in the Republic, drinking and laughing with his Contemporary's about how well they did today.

Well, it is often the case that you can't negotiate with the terrorist, but, what is often the case, the other side is equally headstrong and won't negotiate with the terrorist.

Diplomacy is always the best solution but, in some cases, and especially this one, no amount of diplomacy will work. Diplomacy, in the minds of these extremists, is a gun of the feeble-minded. I applaud your sentiments Melon, as we in the free world, are entitled to Free Speech and Freedom of Thought. The Terrorist does not like that; he/it wants it THEIR WAY OR BLOW THE PLANET UP!

Ah yes...I was waiting for this argument. Right on cue...

Unfortunately, the best terrorist is a dead one - and I don't care how many "martyrs" are created; martyrs cannot kill again. If America allows terrorism to win in this case, then we can kiss democracy and your basic freedom goodbye.

The best terrorist is one locked up in solitary confinement. That would be the ultimate punishment for bin Laden, who would be denied martyrdom and, hence, his belief that he'll go automatically to heaven for dying in a Holy War. You all underestimate bin Laden. I fear we are playing into his hands even as we speak...

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
The problem with lcoking up "The Osama" is that his followers will take hostages and implore threats around the world until he is released. This has been done with several of the airplane hijackings in the 80s. Otherwise, I would agree, because that would give me the opportunity to go visit him in prison and make faces at him and call him dirty names.

~U2Alabama
 
[/QUOTE]
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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
:-:George Bernard Shaw:-:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then call me forever unreasonable

Melon
[/QUOTE]

You're all right Melon! I disagree with you 180 like the Sun versus Pluto but, you're all right.

I can't help the way I feel and I've interpreted the facts the way I see them.

I'm sorry if I sound like a selfish American but, why shouldn't my kids be able to have the lifestyle me and their grandparents had when we were kids.

I think, it's all about Freedom, the security of this nation, and a terrorist free planet. To do that we need to exterminate first and apologize later.

Sacrifices of a few for the greater good of the rest of the world.

I know you don't like the sound of that Melon but, I guess when push comes to shove, I'm a Red-meat-eating shoot-first ask questions later kind of guy(with a little education)!

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GOD BLESS AMERICA
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!!!........................................U2 is still the best band ever!!
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[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 09-18-2001).]
 
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