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Old 06-26-2007, 08:28 PM   #41
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The first time I ever felt like I "loved" a place was when I spent a year in Chuuk, a tiny little island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

Perhaps that's why I now live on ANOTHER tiny little island in the Pacific Ocean.

Chuuk, objectively, wasn't that lovable though. A lot trash marring the tropical beauty, a pretty-brokedown infrastructure and a horrifically corrupt government. But I loved Chuuk anyway.

As for the United States, I am deeply appreciative to be a U.S. citizen. Very grateful. Carrying a U.S. passport really smooths the way in most of my travels, and there's a nice sense of "security", the sense that if things ever get crazy "out there" I can always go home to the "safety" of the United States (though technically I live on U.S. soil as the Northern Marianas Islands are a territory of the U.S.). I also admire the ideals found in the U.S. Constitution and the preamble to the Declaration of Independence. Granted the nation has rarely fully lived up to those ideals but they are something to strive for, something to hold the nation accountable to. I don't believe that the U.S. is better than any other country. I don't buy into the "more free" nonsense and so on. I think in large part I like my country because it happens to be mine, it's where I'm from. In that sense it's part of me.

As to what I "owe" the country, I tend to feel that if I enjoy the benefits of being an American citizen it's not unreasonable to do my duties as citizen whatever they may be. For reasons of personal conscience, I don't think I would fight as a combatant for my country but if "called upon" I would serve in whatever other ways I could. I feel like unless you genuinely could care less whether your country is run by the current folks or whoever the "enemy" is, unless you are glad to give up whatever benefits you might receive as a citizen, you should be willing to do SOMETHING in the service of your country.

And I do agree that fighting for your country, doing that duty if you will, sometimes means opposing what the leaders of your country are doing (as in the case of our current war in Iraq) and perhaps refusing to participate in it. I think stopping the madness this administration is perpetuating could be vital to the long-term health and even survival of the nation. Blindly and "patriotically" going along with a foolhardy war could harm the nation rather than help it.
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Old 06-26-2007, 09:26 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico
Nature > people
people are part of the nature. One of many children of this blue planet.
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:01 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Irvine511
it's striking that so many people talk about loving the landscapes of their country.

why do you think that is?
I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure most people here know how much I am obsessed with animals, and that my livelihood truly does revolve around the natural aspect of creation. There's nothing I enjoy more than going to the beach, kayaking, tent camping, hiking in the woods, animal watching in the Everglades, fishing in the Atlantic ocean, and photographing each of these activities. It's not so much that I prefer the landscape of the US to the landscape of other countries, but that we pretty much have nearly every landscape and natural environment right here in one country. As much as I love nature, I'm a city girl, so that's another thing I love - I can live in a nice large metropolis and still be within 1-2 days drive of almost any landscape I can dream up.
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:32 PM   #44
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*Drunken goggles on*
As my genealogy has revealed, my paternal and maternal families have been in America for 200 years and more, in some cases.

I love the idea of America much more than I love the current representation. I don't love the state, govt. or any representation, I love the idea that an individual could come to America and better their life through the virtues of honesty and hard work. It's all anyone could ask. Yes, the 'pie-in-the-sky' attitude more often than not falls flat on it's face but I'm not sure if there are better opportunities elsewhere. Seems to be, in some cases.

It seems that if a (figurative analogy) house fly is killed unfortunately in the US, it will make a paper somewhere and some (figurative) Aussie or Euro (whomever) would be outraged about what the U.S. is up to. I don't love my country like I did when I was 12, not even close, but I think that the freedoms truly offered are as good as anywhere else and that with competent leadership and legislation we could prove to be the worlds only superpower for a reason other than military. Remains to be seen, for sure.

I don't love my country in 'that' respect, I love liberty. And it gets smaller here by the day, it seems. I respect laws to protect others from abuses of said liberty, what I don't respect is a government or state that wouldn't afford you the liberty in the first place. That disqualifies less than it used to but still quite a few.

I think there are many countries who took the modern U.S. model and did a bit better with it, if not a lot. That said, many/most will always be beholden to the U.S because they aren't realists in the sense that they aren't willing to fight a little tough or even dirty. Canada, I'm sure is a wonderful place to live, from all exhibited accounts, but they have no credible national defense outside of the U.S.

To many, this means nothing. These people lack the perspective that would go on to allow them to love the place they live with the (false sense of) security that their state/country has provided that they would not lose this liberty. Otherwise, they forfeit it. (You can give me Utopia, but can you assure me that it won't easily crumble?) In this respect, I think the U.S. is still admirable and maybe even capable of being loved by an idealist who doesn't comprehend much outside of their own borders. I'm not sure the U.S is the best country in the world to live, it's up to debate for sure, what's not up to debate is the security of the state. That does mean something. For that, we can love our security, even if our liberties are in flux. And we can look outside our borders and wonder if we would be better off and a sense of loyalty would tell us 'no' but we might be wrong. Security makes me love the sacrfice of others, it doesn't make me accept the reality of the state of things. I love America as far as I and like-minded individuals can try and make it.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:59 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


people are part of the nature. One of many children of this blue planet.
i did the because i was joking.
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:57 AM   #46
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Originally posted by U2DMfan
To many, this means nothing. These people lack the perspective that would go on to allow them to love the place they live with the (false sense of) security that their state/country has provided that they would not lose this liberty. Otherwise, they forfeit it. (You can give me Utopia, but can you assure me that it won't easily crumble?) In this respect, I think the U.S. is still admirable and maybe even capable of being loved by an idealist who doesn't comprehend much outside of their own borders. I'm not sure the U.S is the best country in the world to live, it's up to debate for sure, what's not up to debate is the security of the state. That does mean something. For that, we can love our security, even if our liberties are in flux. And we can look outside our borders and wonder if we would be better off and a sense of loyalty would tell us 'no' but we might be wrong. Security makes me love the sacrfice of others, it doesn't make me accept the reality of the state of things. I love America as far as I and like-minded individuals can try and make it.




very interesting.

hope you had a fun night.
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:05 PM   #47
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Am very proud to hail from Scotland. I dont consider myself British. I am from Scotland, which is a country, therfore I am Scottish.
For a wee country, we have contributed a lot to the world and we should be proud of that.
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Old 06-28-2007, 07:22 PM   #48
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Wow, what an interesting discussion.

I think the comparisons to WWII from both Americans and Germans here is very interesting.

We cite examples of folks dying on the beaches of normandy as a great love for country, and today, if someone flys a flag in germany, the might be considered a "nazi".

Fascinating.
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Old 06-28-2007, 07:27 PM   #49
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Re: do you love your country?

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and i don't mean like, or enjoy, or feel lucky to be a citizen. i mean do you love your country, in a manner similar to the way you might love another person, ie, be willing to die for it.

does your country love you?
No and no.
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Old 06-28-2007, 07:59 PM   #50
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The only time I felt any kind of patriotism was when Australia qualified for the World Cup
That was the only time I felt patriotic about Aussie as well.

Mind you, the Socceroos epitomise something more than just a national sporting team. They are Australia's representatives in the only sport that really matters, and after decades of copping such nasty treatment by the anti-soccer sentiment popularised by the mainstream media (sheilas, wogs and poofters), it felt like a genuine triumph of an underdog, a genuine triumph in the face of adversity, a sporting revolution, a two-fingered salute to the bore that is the all white, pro-AFL, pro-rugby, pro-cricket status quo.

Australia's all fine and dandy. We've got some nice little geographical sweetspots in WA and QLD and some interesting weather, but our history bores me. Doesn't seem like there is a lot to celebrate. The US have their revolution, but we don't have anything like that. Eureka Stockade is cool and all, but hardly compares. We have a crappy flag and anthem as well.

I suppose one thing I really like about Aussies is that unlike Americans and Middle Easterners, we don't get all hung up about religion. Heaps of folk don't consider themselves religious, or consider themselves agnostic, or just don't give a damn, which I think is a beautiful thing.

Another great thing is probably the beaches and some of the country towns like Ballarat and Wonthaggi and Yea.

Ultimately, Victoria and Melbourne means more to me than Australia....and although I'm pretty pacifistic, I can see myself defending Victorian values, whatever they might be.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:23 PM   #51
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Originally posted by intedomine

Ultimately, Victoria and Melbourne means more to me than Australia....and although I'm pretty pacifistic, I can see myself defending Victorian values, whatever they might be.

The differences in 'state based patriotism' around Australia are pretty funny. In Victoria and South Australia it is very, very strong. In Queensland not as much, outside of sport. In Western Australia wherever it surfaces it's pretty much due to isolation and thus an independent feeling of pride, at, well, being great all on their own. But then NSW doesn't really give a f*ck at all. I've never heard anyone ever, ever make a point of someone being from NSW like you hear all the time from Victorians and South Australians ("He's a great Victorian/South Australian"), and nothing is ever, ever advertised in a NSW-centric way, again, something you see all the time in other states. I guess it's perhaps a need to forge a unique identity seeing as so much of Australias is Sydney-centric (power, icons, events etc), and in reverse, perhaps that's why we in NSW feel no need to do so?
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:32 AM   #52
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Originally posted by Earnie Shavers



The differences in 'state based patriotism' around Australia are pretty funny. In Victoria and South Australia it is very, very strong. In Queensland not as much, outside of sport. In Western Australia wherever it surfaces it's pretty much due to isolation and thus an independent feeling of pride, at, well, being great all on their own. But then NSW doesn't really give a f*ck at all. I've never heard anyone ever, ever make a point of someone being from NSW like you hear all the time from Victorians and South Australians ("He's a great Victorian/South Australian"), and nothing is ever, ever advertised in a NSW-centric way, again, something you see all the time in other states. I guess it's perhaps a need to forge a unique identity seeing as so much of Australias is Sydney-centric (power, icons, events etc), and in reverse, perhaps that's why we in NSW feel no need to do so?
Fair call. I do think that when a lot of foreign folk think of Australia they immediately think Sydney because you are a bigger city and had more recent major events or whatever. Also when you've got the all-Australia news bulletins, they are overwhelmingly (nauseatingly so, i might add) sydney-centric.

Perhaps indeed, it is because ideas of or about Australia might be so Sydney-centric, is why y'all don't get all passionate about NSW and why we so get all patriotic about the Big V.

Aye, but maybe there's another reason. Maybe you've just got bugger all to be proud about
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:36 AM   #53
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I don't follow sport and have a strong antipathy towards the subsidising of sports and sporting events by every damn level of government, I don't like having two parties which are each anti-freedom, I don't like it that public funds go towards religious schools, I can't stand that free speech is curtailed in the name of anti-terrorism or promoting diversity, I don't like having the government rake in huge amounts of cash from a mining boom only to dish it out at election time as tax cuts as if the peoples own money is a gift, I don't like having video games and movies banned because of violence, I don't like having politicians pushing for ISP level porn filters to protect the children, I don't like being having a country on the tail end of everything from TV, movies and concerts, I drink spirits and not beer and I doubt that I will be here for more than a few years.

I like that we have some of the oldest rocks on the planet, that we lay claim to definining the Ediacaran period and that we have a shitload of economic minerals. I don't mind being able to go to the middle of nowhere.

I wasn't born here and I bloody well won't die here; on the plus side individual sovereignty and having an advanteous accent could be useful for a perpetual traveller.
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:56 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't follow sport and have a strong antipathy towards the subsidising of sports and sporting events by every damn level of government, I don't like having two parties which are each anti-freedom, I don't like it that public funds go towards religious schools, I can't stand that free speech is curtailed in the name of anti-terrorism or promoting diversity, I don't like having the government rake in huge amounts of cash from a mining boom only to dish it out at election time as tax cuts as if the peoples own money is a gift, I don't like having video games and movies banned because of violence, I don't like having politicians pushing for ISP level porn filters to protect the children, I don't like being having a country on the tail end of everything from TV, movies and concerts, I drink spirits and not beer and I doubt that I will be here for more than a few years.

I like that we have some of the oldest rocks on the planet, that we lay claim to definining the Ediacaran period and that we have a shitload of economic minerals. I don't mind being able to go to the middle of nowhere.

I wasn't born here and I bloody well won't die here; on the plus side individual sovereignty and having an advanteous accent could be useful.
yeah, yeah, yeah, but does your country love you?
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:01 AM   #55
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A country can't love it's citizens, but I think that Australia is a democracy and most people are supportive of the safety net that the government provides them and thats fine. A healthy society demands opposing interests, when one government goes to far (IR laws for instance) it will suffer. It's just a shame that there isn't the same level of appreciation for things like free speech and that they can get stripped away without to much trouble.

I like the country perfectly well, it's mainly the state I have a problem with, I don't think that there is anywhere that doesn't have that same issue.

I'm also adding Pauline Hanson (that shit won't flush), the Marriage Act (no gay marriage and no debate) and 10 minutes of AFL in the news to the list.
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:44 AM   #56
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I wasn't born here and I bloody well won't die here; on the plus side individual sovereignty and having an advanteous accent could be useful for a perpetual traveller.


where will you go?
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Old 06-29-2007, 05:13 PM   #57
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Wherever piques my interest and the moneys right, actually that should be and/or.
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Old 06-29-2007, 06:06 PM   #58
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I try to love my country but my country fails me and its people.

I dont like the United Kingdom.
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Old 06-29-2007, 06:30 PM   #59
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I love the beauty of my country, but not its politics. (USA)
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:28 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Wow, what an interesting discussion.

I think the comparisons to WWII from both Americans and Germans here is very interesting.

We cite examples of folks dying on the beaches of normandy as a great love for country, and today, if someone flys a flag in germany, the might be considered a "nazi".

Fascinating.
IF you fly the english flag your deamed a racist.
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