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Old 01-22-2002, 04:58 PM   #21
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Originally posted by CannibalisticArtist:
what next? the "force" will be a recognized religion? silly people.
"Jedi knight" was forced to be listed as a religion in the U.K., due to so many people listing it in the last census.

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 01-22-2002, 05:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
[B]Well personally I find it just about as believable as following a 2,000 year old carpenter.
B]
mug222, do you believe in God? if so, why is believing in Jesus Christ such a stretch?
And if you don't believe in God, why not? Is it easier for you to believe that we somehow evolved from nothing and somehow emotions got worked into the mix and that super complex machine we call a body just developed into what it is from absolutely nothing over a billion years? Or is it easier to believe that a creative force/personna started it all? Thinking that the world exploded into being out of pure accident is a much bigger stretch than believing in God. The chances that this world came from nothing with no creative power behind is about as likely as if you had a box that contained a million scraps of paper with one word on each scrap and you climbed up to the top of the Empire State building and then overturned the box and when it hit the ground, it collected in such a manner that it became Webster's dictionary. There's not much chance of that now, is there?
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Old 01-22-2002, 05:55 PM   #23
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
mug222, do you believe in God?
I believe that question to be fundamentally (by the very essence of the question) unknowable. (If you put a gun to my head, on the other hand, I'd say no.)

Quote:

if so, why is believing in Jesus Christ such a stretch?


What reason (WHATSOEVER!) is there to believe in Jesus Christ? Why should I equate him in my mind with anything vaguely resembling the possibility of some higher (and, again, unknowable) being? And, of course, citing the Bible is circular reasoning. Not to be cruel, because I can see how to others the concept of evolution and other scientific facts/models may be equally elusive, but it honestly boggles my mind. God is one question, but religion--Christianity, Judiasm (to which I belong nominally), Islam, Scientology, Jainism, you name it--is completely another, and has (in my mind, of course) absolutely no foundation anywhere. Anywhere. Absolutely anywhere, except in the imagination of men (and women).

Quote:

And if you don't believe in God, why not? Is it easier for you to believe that we somehow evolved from nothing and somehow emotions got worked into the mix and that super complex machine we call a body just developed into what it is from absolutely nothing over a billion years? Or is it easier to believe that a creative force/personna started it all? Thinking that the world exploded into being out of pure accident is a much bigger stretch than believing in God. The chances that this world came from nothing with no creative power behind is about as likely as if you had a box that contained a million scraps of paper with one word on each scrap and you climbed up to the top of the Empire State building and then overturned the box and when it hit the ground, it collected in such a manner that it became Webster's dictionary. There's not much chance of that now, is there?
About as much chance as a great big man reaching down from the sky and arranging these scraps of paper into the Encyclopedia Britannica. (And far more chance than a carpenter putting down his tools and gluing together those same scraps of paper)

I apologize to the creater of this thread for hijacking the topic a bit...I get dragged into these debates quite easily, and even start them sometimes



[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 01-22-2002).]
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Old 01-22-2002, 07:40 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
Well personally I find it just about as believable as following a 2,000 year old carpenter.



Whether or not you think Jesus was the Son of God, it's pretty obvious from his teachings and from the impact he has had on world history that he was/is more than "a 2000 year old carpenter."



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Old 01-22-2002, 07:52 PM   #25
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Originally posted by scatteroflight:

Whether or not you think Jesus was the Son of God, it's pretty obvious from his teachings and from the impact he has had on world history that he was/is more than "a 2000 year old carpenter."
Well, to a believer, of course. To a non-believer, his impact has been negative, being the source of more wars and deaths than perhaps anyone in history. (indirectly, of course. I need not cite many wars founded on religion to prove this point).
Yes, his impact has been more than a 2,000 year old carpenter, and far worse.
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Old 01-22-2002, 08:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
To a non-believer, his impact has been negative, being the source of more wars and deaths than perhaps anyone in history. (indirectly, of course. I need not cite many wars founded on religion to prove this point).
Yes, his impact has been more than a 2,000 year old carpenter, and far worse.
mug222, Jesus Christ is not the cause of these wars and deaths and you know it, if you know His teachings.
If you spent you life preaching about love, and later someone murdered someone and did it in your name, who is the cause - you or the person who claimed to be murdering in your name? Certainly not you, because yopu preach love. That's the exact same thing with Jesus. Just because someone claimed the name of Jesus when waging these wars doesn't mean the person is a real Christian, and it certainly doesn't mean Jesus is teh cause of the wars.
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Old 01-22-2002, 08:46 PM   #27
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originally posted by mug222:
What reason (WHATSOEVER!) is there to believe in Jesus Christ? Why should I equate him in my mind with anything vaguely resembling the possibility of some higher (and, again, unknowable) being? And, of course, citing the Bible is circular reasoning. Not to be cruel, because I can see how to others the concept of evolution and other scientific facts/models may be equally elusive, but it honestly boggles my mind. God is one question, but religion--Christianity, Judiasm (to which I belong nominally), Islam, Scientology, Jainism, you name it--is completely another, and has (in my mind, of course) absolutely no foundation anywhere. Anywhere. Absolutely anywhere, except in the imagination of men (and women).


80sU2isBest says:
There are other respected scholars besides Bible scholars who lived at the time of Christ and write of Jesus going around performing miracles. Have you never heard of the Jewish scholar Josephus Flavius?
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Old 01-22-2002, 08:48 PM   #28
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mug:

You're ignoring both the positive impact His existence has had on this planet (leading Christians to fight slavery, poverty, racism, etc.) AND the fact that the negative effects were ALL contrary to His teaching.

Christ said the two great commandments are to love God with all your being and to love your neighbors as yourself.

Certainly, there are those who broke those commandments and claimed to be doing so in His name, but its not Christ's fault those jackasses corrupted His message - and it's dishonest to suggest that it is.

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 01-22-2002).]
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Old 01-22-2002, 09:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
"Jedi knight" was forced to be listed as a religion in the U.K., due to so many people listing it in the last census.

Melon

EXACTLY! LOL.


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Old 01-22-2002, 09:11 PM   #30
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Originally posted by mug222:
Well, to a believer, of course. To a non-believer, his impact has been negative, being the source of more wars and deaths than perhaps anyone in history. (indirectly, of course. I need not cite many wars founded on religion to prove this point).
Yes, his impact has been more than a 2,000 year old carpenter, and far worse.

mug222;

You can't generalise like that at all, not everybody who doesn't believe in him think him negative, in fact, I would think the opposite; most DON'T. My father is the biggest athiest on the face of the Earth, however, he still values Jesus and loves what Jesus represents. As Acthung Bubba said, you can't blame pratts taking arms in the name of Christ on Jesus, it is neither right nor are you justified. Jesus once said that 'those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword', he never meant for anyone to use violence, to force their beliefs on anyone and never for an instant intended negative effects.

There is always an important distinction to be made between religion in itself and the interpretation of religion; interpretation can sometimes fall into the wrong minds, producing wars and never-ending violence. Whether you believe this or not, you can't say that all non-believers think of Jesus in a negative way.

My view of Jesus is that he was connected to God, that he had found God and he knew of his will, he had, in essence, become God. However, I am not a Catholic, if anything, I am very anti-catholic as I find it to be quite a fasicst institution. However, that does not discredit Jesus and what he stands for; to me, he stands for everything in life I want; union with God.

Returning to the topic at hand, I am sorry mug222, but there is a HUGE difference between christianity and the scientologists, even my father is able to recognise. Yes, all religions started off as and are in essence cults (the Catholic church was a cult under the Romans), however, not all cults are the same and this you must agree with. After all, the Catholic church preaches about God, peace on Earth, good will to your neighbour and basicallu upholds morality - scientologists are only interested in money money money.

Where Bono asks the question 'for love or money?' The Catholics say LOVE, while the Scientologists say MONEY! Its not an opinion, its the truth. In order to join you need to pay like a lump sum, you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to pay for this you need to pay for that; they LEECH money out of you for God's sake.

Also, I'm not sure they even worship God, I'm pretty sure they preach about L. Ron Hubbard and his genius, which is pretty twisted, seeing as the man is the most untalented fool there ever was.

I never thought I'd see the day I would defend the Catholic Church, this is how strongly I feel about the distinction between them and the church of Scientology.

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Old 01-22-2002, 09:12 PM   #31
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Acthung Bubba and 80s:
It's absolutely true, of course, that Christ did not cause any of the turmoil that followed. Though I am no biblical scholar--to say the least --I am aware that his views were peaceful, and I extrapolate that he would be as disgusted with the chaos that religion has caused throughout history. I have no issue with Christ himself (beyond that I think him slightly delusional). In fact I think I would agree with him on many points.

80s:

I don't take much stock in miracles, but I'd be interested to hear the essence of Flavius' views.

I thank you both for a respectful discussion--I do recognize the inflammatory nature of my question.




[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 01-22-2002).]
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Old 01-22-2002, 09:19 PM   #32
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Anthony:

I apologize if that came across as a generalization (I meant to this nonbeliever). As I said before, I respect Jesus' views, and I believe that he would be as disappointed with many of the results of organized religion as I am.

Secondly, I only equated Scientology with Catholicism as an organized religion. Believe me, I recognize the differences between the two (I have been in closer contact with Scientologists than I would wish on an enemy!) However, I do NOT think the Catholic Church is about the "Love" anymore as much as it is about the money (though admittedly not nearly to the same extent as Scientology).
I've always called the Catholic Church the largest, longest running, and most successful multinational corporation in the history of the world.




[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 01-22-2002).]
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Old 01-23-2002, 12:12 AM   #33
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
mug222, Jesus Christ is not the cause of these wars and deaths and you know it, if you know His teachings.
If you spent you life preaching about love, and later someone murdered someone and did it in your name, who is the cause - you or the person who claimed to be murdering in your name? Certainly not you, because yopu preach love. That's the exact same thing with Jesus. Just because someone claimed the name of Jesus when waging these wars doesn't mean the person is a real Christian, and it certainly doesn't mean Jesus is teh cause of the wars.
Precisely.



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Old 01-23-2002, 07:39 AM   #34
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Hokey religions...

None of you were in chat the other night huh?
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Old 01-23-2002, 07:46 AM   #35
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I read that as Hockey religions at 1st, and thought whats BabyG been up to now?


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Old 01-23-2002, 09:39 AM   #36
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Originally posted by mug222:
Well, to a believer, of course. To a non-believer, his impact has been negative, being the source of more wars and deaths than perhaps anyone in history. (indirectly, of course. I need not cite many wars founded on religion to prove this point).
Yes, his impact has been more than a 2,000 year old carpenter, and far worse.
ABSOLUTE MYTH.

Now let's add up these figures: Mao killed about 72 million human beings from 1948-1976. When we add the 40 million that Stalin is responsible for we come to 112 million. Throw in Hitler's 15 million (not even counting the war that he started!), and we come to about 127 million. Add other killings by other athestic ideology and you come up with a number of more than 130 million.

If you were to add those dead from the wars of this century, the number would easily jump to 170 million; but in order to compare apples to apples we'll stick with the 130 million figure.

Using the most exaggerated critera and numbers, one could come up with no more than 17 million people killed by professing Christians "in the name of Christ" in twenty centuries of Christian history.

Thus, the number of those killed in the name of the secular state in this century alone is eight times more than our estimate of the number of those killed in the name of Christ in all centuries of the Christian era!


-An excerpt from "What if Jesus had never been born?"-

An excellent and eye opening book, I encougage you to read it if you ever wonder how influential Jesus was.
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Old 01-23-2002, 09:59 AM   #37
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two words
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Tom Cruise
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Old 01-23-2002, 04:13 PM   #38
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"What if Jesus had never been born?" is a piece of trash. Yes, I've read parts of it. Yes, if you consider Hitler's murders religion-blind you are mistaken. An Aryan nation is not an atheistic nation, and there's that conspicuous absence of Jews.

That book is not to be taken seriously.
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Old 01-23-2002, 04:38 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
"What if Jesus had never been born?" is a piece of trash. Yes, I've read parts of it. Yes, if you consider Hitler's murders religion-blind you are mistaken. An Aryan nation is not an atheistic nation, and there's that conspicuous absence of Jews.

That book is not to be taken seriously.
A piece of trash? Not to be taken seriously? Care to elaborate on that? Your opinion of any book writen by a Christian author will be that it is biased and therefore inaccurate. Is that you reasoning?

So now that Hitler's millions of dead people don't count, the score is roughly:
Christianity-17 million
Atheism-115 Million
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Old 01-23-2002, 05:12 PM   #40
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I pointed out the mistake on Hitler as exemplative of the constant gloss-overs of that book. Obviously I would completely disregard the entire book (just as you, a Christian, finds it "eye-opening") but even my Christian friends agree that the author takes far too many liberties with history simply in order to prove his thesis--of Jesus' profound beneficial impact on the world, from art (acceptable) to science (laughable). It honestly is a ridiculous book (in my opinion, of course.)

But honestly: you, as a rational human being, cannot seriously believe the total deaths in wars somehow related to Christianity is 17 million. Even Christians that utterly diagree with me on other points cannot truly believe that to be true, right? Right?

[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 01-23-2002).]
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