bad things happen to good people. so who is in control?

[sharky]

I don't know. But I think the thing I am most trying to point out is that it's all individual. What might be right for you may not be right for someone else. Perhaps the family will do something in the child's name. Polly Klass' death led to sexual predators having to register where they live. The Amber Alert was the result of the death of a child. Hearing about the deaths of thousands of Africans may make someone take action to make the world better -- African Well Fund is a prime example. Does it make up for the loss? No way. But perhaps the loss of one could lead to the prevention of the loss of another.

 

[deep]

That is all very pragmatic.

It may make the "world" right or balanced for some.

If it is your daughter, there is no reason and those answers only mollify the one making the statements

 

[sharky]

so the parents are supposed to live the rest of their lives bitter and pissed off? as I said, I based what I believe on personal experience. did I deserve cancer? did I deserve to watch people die? No. I had a friend who told me I needed to not stay in and mope, I needed to go to a party on 9/11 this year, which was a Saturday, because it's been three years and I needed to get over it. I'm NEVER going to get over it.

Maybe I'm conceited but I don't think I did something that so pissed off God that he afflicated me with these things. Perhaps it's just a way for me to justify what has happened to me, to find an explanation, but that's my opinion and everyone's opinion on this is going to differ based on their own life experience.

 

[starsgoblue]

Deep---It all comes down to free will. If a sexual predator preys on a child that is a result of that predator's scewed rational. God didn't make us to be robots...He had no reason, no reason at all to create us--what would he possibly need from us? But He created us to have fellowship with us. And He gave us a choice.

God is sorrowed by some of our choices. He actually experiences heartache! In Genesis 6 the Lord's heart was described as being filled with pain. It was broken from seeing the evils that mankind did to each other. The tears of God are the meaning of history.

That's why I am saying the evils of the world fall on mankinds shoulders....to try to attribute these misfortunes to God would be arrogant. Humanity at is foundational level needs to be fixed...if we stepped out in love and treated everyone with compassion and equality can you imagine how much more beautiful this world would be? I refuse to accept that the world is just the way it is and there is nothing to be done.

AND THE GREATEST OF THESE IS


Sharky....this is best I can give you right now, my friend.

 

[A_Wanderer]

People can do evil things and people can do good things - we dont need to invent Gods and Monsters to explain humanity.

 

[starsgoblue]

Yes I agree. But there IS a God, A_Wanderer.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Give me one good reason why there is a God?

I have seen no good evidence for such a being, people were worshipping the sun and moon long before God ever came into the equation. How is a Judeo-Christian God any more valid than those pagan belief structures. Isn't it all just baseless superstition.

*This topic can now start to get interesting

 

[starsgoblue]

You are very right about people worshipping the sun and the moon beforehand....you're missing some valuable points though. Have you ever really studied the Old Testament in light of the Christian faith, A_Wanderer? I can take the gloves off if you'd like.... The thing is this, however, I don't want to get into this if you are already anticipating shooting everything I say down--if you've got an open mind I'd love to discuss....I was a hardcore atheist once myself....

I'll be back later on today...I've got to get some shut eye, it's 4 AM over here in the States.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Sleep well, I will be more than happy to argue from my position with logic against faith.

As I have stated in the final analysis the existence of God is impossible to prove and disprove, so I am more than willing to accept your right to believe what you want to believe. I have no interest in throwing an atheist jihad against people for their beliefs. So some light hearted conversation on the topic of faith can be good.

 

[starsgoblue]

Just cause I'm a smartass..I'm throwing this in real quickly...the nonexistence of God is impossible to prove and disprove as well. Even if you don't believe in God, you are still making a statement of faith. Except you have faith that there is no God...but it is still faith.

G'night!

 

[Se7en]

Deep---It all comes down to free will...
He had no reason, no reason at all to create us--what would he possibly need from us?

first of all, free will is for me much in the same vein as "everything happens for a reason." there is no such thing as "free will." no human is capable of making a completely objective decision; we are always influenced by something or someone.

second, i don't know why we are here or how we got here...i have my ideas, but they are pure speculation. but apparently god is in need of people to take a knee and give praise and thanks and admit how wretched a species we are...at least that's the feeling i get, not that i agree. i don't think god wants anything from us, especially not calculated dogma and theology.

and finally, i just wanted to make it clear that i understand how events throughout our lives shape us as individuals - that bad things happen all of the time and as shitty as they are, they help us to build character. what i don't believe is that these things happen by divine will or because we need to learn a lesson. my friend's mother did not die so that i could become a stronger person - any positive characteristics i get out of this will be the coincidental byproduct of a tragedy.

what happened to the god debate?

 

[speedracer]

What do you say to someone whose 4 year old daughter was kidnapped by a sexual pervert.

And the 4 year old was abused for 3 weeks, slowly tortured and eventually beat to death?

Same answer I (a practicing Christian) have to many of the questions in this thread:

I don't know.

 

[sharky]

and finally, i just wanted to make it clear that i understand how events throughout our lives shape us as individuals - that bad things happen all of the time and as shitty as they are, they help us to build character. what i don't believe is that these things happen by divine will or because we need to learn a lesson. my friend's mother did not die so that i could become a stronger person - any positive characteristics i get out of this will be the coincidental byproduct of a tragedy.

But see, that's how YOU deal with a tragedy. I disagree based on my past experience and based on the fact that is how I live my life. In the end, I think it's whatever you need to believe to keep you going -- be it God, drugs, meditation, candy bars, whatever. It's amazing that even if we include God in this debate, our personal philosophies are all over the place.

I like this thread. Very personal and emotional but I've been finding it quite interesting to see others have dealt with things in their lives -- ya know, personal philosophy.

 

[Dreadsox]

Usually people say "Everything happens for a reason" because they don't know what else to say. I say it because I'm living proof of it. But I think Stammer is right -- when you have a chance to gain perspective, to look back at how you have changed, you may be surprised to find the positive things these events teach you about yourself. Like I said, life is crap. I talked to a friend whose sister died five years ago tonight. It's still not easy for her. I had a friend who told me I should just get over 9/11 and I thought she was out of her mind. These are not easy things to deal with, these are life things. And it hurts. but sooner or later, things get better, you realize your perspective of life is changed and you go on living because you realize how precious life really is.

I belive this with all my heart.
I may not have ever told you this Sharky, but reading your posts two years ago is what inspired me to begin posting.

 

[Dreadsox]

This topic came up in my ministry class last week. We were discussing if God were still present and active in the creation. We were also discussing how parts of the bible seem mythological.

At this point in the discussion, I was transported back to 1986 when I flipped my car into an oak tree. I shared with the class that my falling asleep at the wheel was the best thing that ever happened to me. I should have died that night. A few inches more and the roof of the car, where the tree had crushed the roof and I would have been. Instead I walked away on my own to the police cruiser.

I thought it was the worst thing that happened to me at the time. My mother beat the ever loving tar out of me when I got home from the hospital, even in the neck brace and with the cast. It pretty much ended my chances at a career as a classical clarinetist because of the damage to my hand. That was what I thought I was destined to do. It devistated me to not be able to play for almost a year.

It was the best thing, ever. It completely removed me from an abusive situation. I would not have met my wife if that had not happened. I would not have these two beautiful children. My life can be traced back to that event. That moment in time, where I know now, 16 years later, that my life would have been completely different.

I am not sure if this helps in the thread with the discussion but it was my example of what I believe was God's influence in my life. At the time I did not know why things were happening.....but I know that night changed my life, and I did not quite get it until last week.

 

[shart1780]

I'm really sorry to hear about that. That's really got to hurt.

I believe God is in control. I believe he chooses everyone's time to go, and that's why you gotta be ready for it anytime!! You never know when it'll be your time...

 

[Se7en]

I am not sure if this helps in the thread with the discussion but it was my example of what I believe was God's influence in my life. At the time I did not know why things were happening.....but I know that night changed my life, and I did not quite get it until last week.

Not to take away anything from your experiences, but why doesn't god influence everyone's life the same way it influences yours? what makes your life more worthy of interaction with the deity? now i know this wasn't the tone of your post, and i am not attacking you at all...these are just honest questions. some poor kid in darfur probably died five minutes ago because he has no food to eat. where was god's influence in his life?

i know we all look at life differently, but we can't all be right. so i guess what i'm looking for is some quantitative evidence that god is in fact present in creation. personal stories are often useful in demonstrating the possibility of god's interaction with one person's life...but it leaves out millions and millions of people who are not as fortunate. am i making sense?

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not know if I could call it an interaction. I do not believe I am any more important than anyone else, and I strongly believe it is dangerous to walk around believing you are chosen by God.

I started a thread about a week ago asking if you think you are worthy of the gifts bestowed upon you.

It sort of ties in here? Am I more worthy than the kid in darfur? I do not believe I am , nor am I going to pretend to know Gods purpose in that situation.

I have to run to religion class and will try and come back. Believe me I did not take this as an attack, its questions that at 36 years old I have no answer to.

 

[sharky]

Not to take away anything from your experiences, but why doesn't god influence everyone's life the same way it influences yours? what makes your life more worthy of interaction with the deity? now i know this wasn't the tone of your post, and i am not attacking you at all...these are just honest questions. some poor kid in darfur probably died five minutes ago because he has no food to eat. where was god's influence in his life?

Oh, if only we knew the answer to that one! you people make me think too much.

From's God's perspective, each person's influence from an event is just right even if we don't see it. Man, that so sounds like crap. Ok....let's see....that's the only answer I have that makes the most sense. Why are 200,000 people dying in Darfur while I have a nice -- albeit expensive -- apartment? Why is the biggest problem in my life right now the fact that my job sucks? I dunno.

Maybe that's the conclusion of this thread: we don't have answers, we just try to find answers to better explain our surroundings, our life. It's alot easier to say "God's will be done" than to say "Fuck you" to the world I guess. But I can accept that.

 

[deep]

se7en,

I hear you,

In so many of these stories the protagonists seem to think they are the center of the universe.

Every time I hear things like this said I imagine the less fortunate people, those that do not survive.

Why is god with one person while abandoning the other?

My answer, he is with neither.

God does not play favorites. Life happens. And he just loves us.

 

[deep]

we just try to find answers to better explain our surroundings, our life.

i agree.

 

[Se7en]

Why are 200,000 people dying in Darfur while I have a nice -- albeit expensive -- apartment? Why is the biggest problem in my life right now the fact that my job sucks? I dunno.

i'll give you a hint. it has to do with the inherent exploitation in the global capitalist system. you were just lucky enough to be birthed into a first world country that is the exploiter, rather than the exploitee.

It's alot easier to say "God's will be done" than to say "Fuck you" to the world I guess. But I can accept that.

i guess what i'm suggesting is that neither one of these are acceptable.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Dafour has another little hint - Imperialism care of the RoP.

 

[Se7en]

RoP? pardon my ignorance.

 

[sharky]

i'll give you a hint. it has to do with the inherent exploitation in the global capitalist system. you were just lucky enough to be birthed into a first world country that is the exploiter, rather than the exploitee.

But did I choose to be born here? and does that mean money is the answer? nope and nope.

btw, thanks Dread.

 

[Se7en]

But did I choose to be born here? and does that mean money is the answer? nope and nope.

btw, thanks Dread.

no, you didn't chose to be born here. nor did that child choose to be born in the sudan. doens't mean we should just say oh well and be done with it.

money isn't the answer. but a more equitable distribution of wealth would solve a lot of problems i reckon. for one, that child wouldn't have starved to death.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I do not think that having everybody be equally poor will help anything. Aid helps in the short term but in long term it is about good governance and economic integration.

 

[Dreadsox]

I had the MOST moving class tonight. I wish I could share the information that was shared in class but we are not supposed to share the personal things that we share with each other.

I can inform you that I am the youngest person in the class. The oldest person shared her Spiritual Autobiagraphy with us. She was born before WWII. My goodness what a life. She fought against racist politics in South Africa in 1953! Think about that! The other things she shared about her life are incredible. Nothing was easy, living through air-raids in WWII. Not seing her father because he was fighting WWII for SIX YEARS.

Throughout her story, all I could think of was this thread. You want to get a grasp of the answer to this question, sit down and listen to someone who is two times your age. The things I thought were significant seem so much less.

 

[starsgoblue]

what happened to the god debate?

Why do you want to hear it? I thought you already made up your mind.... I'm not going to post about faith in something if someone's waiting in the wings to pick me off--self defeating. If you have an openmind then I'd love to go down that road.

 

[Se7en]

Why do you want to hear it? I thought you already made up your mind.... I'm not going to post about faith in something if someone's waiting in the wings to pick me off--self defeating. If you have an openmind then I'd love to go down that road.

i think its interesting. and i haven't so much made up my mind about the exsistence or nature of a god as i have about its role in our lives. just because i don't think it is present on this earth doesn't necessarily mean i don't believe in one, nor that i'm bitter and angry at it. i just want to have a clearer understanding of why things happen.