abortions

[whammy]

Originally posted by Angell:
Haven't been in forum for a while, but I have to jump in on this with my 2 cents.

One point about rape (which is the only touchy thing I see about this): Would you punish the child for the sin of the father? What if a woman is repeatedly abused by her husband and leaves him, only to find that everytime she sees her children she is reminded of him, so she kills them. Would that hold up in the court that allows abortion today?

Out of all the people who crunched numbers and did the math, when calculating how to get to the moon; I wonder how many of them actually had the guts to try?!

YOU HAVE KNOW IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

You must be a Jewel fan.

------------------
GOD BLESS AMERICA!

P.S.-When I say "God Bless America", I mean just that,....."God Bless America."
Just like when I was kid and said it every morning.
There is no hidden, over-educated, or abstract meaning. Just "God Bless America."


[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 12-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 12-09-2001).]

[Klodomir]

Angell, I'm okay with your second explanation. I still don't agree, but I respect your opinion.

Whammy, what are you on about?

+Laura+... I can't believe I'm actually ending up playing Devil's advocate on this one, but are you saying that people who are pro-choice/abortion/whatever is the correct term these days don't love children? Or maybe even that they hate children?

[Angell]

Yes, whammy...what is it exactly that I don't know about?

------------------
"Love is a verb..."

[WildHoneyAlways]

I am pro choice. I respect the Supreme Court and its ruling. I am also in favor of euthanasia.

[speedracer]

I think abortions should be legal in cases of rape, incest, danger to the mother's life, severe birth defects, and possibly in cases of *extreme* hardship.

However, I think that the notion of a *right* to have an abortion is terrible.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by whammy:


Out of all the people who crunched numbers and did the math, when calculating how to get to the moon; I wonder how many of them actually had the guts to try?!

YOU HAVE KNOW IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!
You must be a Jewel fan.

whammy, I thought you were pro-life? Maybe you misinterpreted Angell's post. It is very pro-life.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 12-10-2001).]

[whammy]

Originally posted by Angell:
Haven't been in forum for a while, but I have to jump in on this with my 2 cents.

One point about rape (which is the only touchy thing I see about this): Would you punish the child for the sin of the father? What if a woman is repeatedly abused by her husband and leaves him, only to find that everytime she sees her children she is reminded of him, so she kills them. Would that hold up in the court that allows abortion today?

NO! I don't think I misunderstood you Angell.
I see that you’re pro-life. And so was I and I still am ............................EXCEPT FOR ONCE.


When you yourself or someone close to you(immediate family) has to deal with being pregnant from a violent life-threatening rape, then I might not get so hostile when I hear textbook/chalkboard opinions!



------------------
GOD BLESS AMERICA!

P.S.-When I say "God Bless America", I mean just that,....."God Bless America."
Just like when I was kid and said it every morning.
There is no hidden, over-educated, or abstract meaning. Just "God Bless America."


[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 12-10-2001).]

[pax]

Okay, I'm gonna jump in. Here we go.

I have to probably side with the less-popular faction here and say that I think abortion ought to be legal, accessible, and in the hands of medical professionals all over the world.

And I also believe in the absolutely unalienable right of women, all over the world, to have access to safe, reliable birth control. Period. End of story. The Pope is a great guy and I know he and Bono hang out, but I don't think that he's infallible, and I don't agree with him on birth control. Never have and never will.

When a woman's access to safe, confidential abortion is taken away, a woman is more likely to attempt to abort the child herself, or to seek an unclean, unsafe abortion. It happened, and it happens today where abortion is illegal. A tragic situation becomes ten times worse.

I hope to God that when I become pregnant, I will be able to support the child, or that if I am not, I will be able to give it up for adoption. I'm very afraid of being raped; it happened to a friend of mine in high school and, more recently, to another friend on the very campus on which I go to college. I have no idea how I would handle that, and I sincerely doubt that anyone who hasn't gone through it could have an idea.

I wish that I lived in a world in which abortion was not necessary. How will pro-lifers win their war on abortion? It's doable, I think, in just a few simple steps:

1.) Stand united, as an entire anti-abortion community, unequivocally, 100% in opposition to the bombing of clinics and the murder of doctors. You know and I know that the vast majority of people who consider themselves pro-life abhor these tactics, but some people still equate "pro-life" with "doctor killer." Just like people equate "pro-choice" with "baby killer,"

2.) Demand, with the pro-choice community, safe, affordable, and universal access to birth control.

3.) Get serious about opposition to the death penalty. Bush is laughable as a figurehead for the pro-life movement. He is, to say the least, a bit trigger-happy when it comes to capital punishment.

4.) Promote family planning awareness through methods other than abortion all over the world. Demand funding for women's health clinics worldwide.

5.) Stop making women feel guilty about their sexuality and their bodies. Guilt isn't going to help. Support will.

6.) Create a true "culture of life" by working for equality in education, career advancement, health care, and civil rights. Show respect for the life that's already here so a woman can feel good about bringing a child into the world, even if she's not going to keep it.

Sorry to rant. It's a big rant-prone subject for me, though. I guess I'm a pro-life pro-choicer, if that's possible. I want to see a world in which abortion is made obsolete, a world in which men respect women's bodies and a woman has so much control over her sexuality and her body that abortions are unheard of. But until that world gets here, abortion will remain an ugly necessity.


------------------
If you cannot live together in here, you cannot live together out there, let me tell ya. --Bono

You've got to cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice... --Bono

[speedracer]

Originally posted by paxetaurora:
Sorry to rant. It's a big rant-prone subject for me, though. I guess I'm a pro-life pro-choicer, if that's possible. I want to see a world in which abortion is made obsolete, a world in which men respect women's bodies and a woman has so much control over her sexuality and her body that abortions are unheard of. But until that world gets here, abortion will remain an ugly necessity.

One more thing--governments really need to lay the smackdown on deadbeat dads.



[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 12-11-2001).]

[80sU2isBest]

paxetaurora said:
"I wish that I lived in a world in which abortion was not necessary."

You do. Abortion is not necessary in most cases. Wish granted.

paxetaurora said:
"Stand united, as an entire anti-abortion community, unequivocally, 100% in opposition to the bombing of clinics and the murder of doctors. "

Okay, I think we should not bomb clinics or kill doctors (pity the doctors don't feel the same compassion for the innocent baby). Now, how do you expect me to change the minds of people who want to bomb a clinic? I'm not Mr. Spock. I can't do a Vulcan mind-meld.

paxetaurora said:
"Get serious about opposition to the death penalty. Bush is laughable as a figurehead for the pro-life movement. He is, to say the least, a bit trigger-happy when it comes to capital punishment."

I am against the death penalty, because innocent people do get executed. But I don't care about the lives of people who DID actually do the crimes they were convicted of. If I could be 100% sure that no innocent people would be executed, I would support the death penalty. However, the two are not the same at all, and it is not correct to equate them. Babies are completely innocent. Everyone who has received the death penalty has been convicted of a crime, and most are guilty.

paxetaurora said:
"Promote family planning awareness through methods other than abortion all over the world. Demand funding for women's health clinics worldwide."

Have you never heard of Crisis Pregnancy Center? There are Christian-run and prolife-run clinics like this all over the place, that offer counseling. But no, I will not demand government funding for women's health clinics worldwide, because most do indeed condone and promote abortion.

paxetaurora said:
"Stop making women feel guilty about their sexuality and their bodies. Guilt isn't going to help. Support will."

I don't know where you're coming from on this one.

paxetaurora said:
"Create a true "culture of life" by working for equality in education, career advancement, health care, and civil rights. Show respect for the life that's already here so a woman can feel good about bringing a child into the world, even if she's not going to keep it."

Do you realize how much pro-lifers have done for the world? Most missionaries are pro-life. And they don't just preach the word. These people go into the remote parts of the world and bring food and clothing to needy people. They stay with them for years, and help them grow their own food, and build their own houses. They help them survive. Do you call that helping the world? I do. Plus, there are many many social programs trun by Christian pro-lifers that help people here in the states. Jesus People USA is an organization in the heart of Chicago run by prolife Christians. They share the gospel with and work for and with the downtown people, providing food and shelter.

paxetaurora said:
"I want to see a world in which abortion is made obsolete, a world in which men respect women's bodies and a woman has so much control over her sexuality and her body that abortions are unheard of. But until that world gets here, abortion will remain an ugly necessity."

Here in the United States, you have that. Women have control over their own bodies. How in the world is that supposed to decrease abortions? It hasn't since abortion became legal in 1973.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 12-11-2001).]

[pax]

You do. Abortion is not necessary in most cases. Wish granted.

Then again, I suppose it depends on how you define necessary.

Now, how do you expect me to change the minds of people who want to bomb a clinic? I'm not Mr. Spock. I can't do a Vulcan mind-meld.

The same way you're trying to change my mind about being pro-choice, I guess.

Everyone who has received the death penalty has been convicted of a crime, and most are guilty.

I guess it also depends on how you define "most."

I will not demand government funding for women's health clinics worldwide, because most do indeed condone and promote abortion.

*Promote* abortion? How is abortion promoted? I certainly have never seen abortion *promoted* anywhere. I don't know how aware you are that in MANY 3rd world countries, women have little or no control over their own bodies. They don't have access to condoms or Depo-Provera, to say the least abortion, except through dangerous and unsanitary means.

Do you realize how much pro-lifers have done for the world? Most missionaries are pro-life. And they don't just preach the word. These people go into the remote parts of the world and bring food and clothing to needy people. They stay with them for years, and help them grow their own food, and build their own houses. They help them survive. Do you call that helping the world? I do. Plus, there are many many social programs trun by Christian pro-lifers that help people here in the states. Jesus People USA is an organization in the heart of Chicago run by prolife Christians. They share the gospel with and work for and with the downtown people, providing food and shelter.

Okay, you have me here. I am sorry for not making myself more clear on that. Many people who are pro-life are also serious about justice, equality, and eradicating poverty. My bad. What you mention IS helping the world, and I should have taken that into account. But there are some who call themselves pro-life who aren't as serious; unfortunately, I seem to know a lot of them.

Here in the United States, you have that. Women have control over their own bodies. How in the world is that supposed to decrease abortions? It hasn't since abortion became legal in 1973.

Unfortunately, no, in the United States, all women do *not* have "that." And it's even worse in other parts of the world.

80sU2isBest...I don't want to offend anyone, and you seem a bit offended, so I am sorry. The abortion debate, I fear, is eternal, and we could argue with each other about it until the cows come home, probably.

Incidentally, I have much less of a problem with individual pro-lifers--I'm friends with many--than I do with the "movement" as a whole. But I find that with a lot of "movements." I feel the same way about libertarians.




------------------
If you cannot live together in here, you cannot live together out there, let me tell ya. --Bono

You've got to cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice... --Bono

[80sU2isBest]

paxetaurora:
Then again, I suppose it depends on how you define necessary.

80sU2isBest:
The way I define necessary? To save the life of the mother. And that's not often. What other definition of "necessary" is there?

paxetaurora:
The same way you're trying to change my mind about being pro-choice, I guess.

80s:
I think you miss my point. In your "simple steps", you called on pro-lifers to stand 100% against people who bomb clinics, and then said that most people do stand against it. So my question was, since you ask 100% of us to stand against it, I'm asking you how can I force those who don't stand against it to change their minds?

paxetaurora:
Promote* abortion? How is abortion promoted? I certainly have never seen abortion *promoted* anywhere.

80sU2isBest:
Abortion is "promoted" by groups like Planned Parenthood, who support the rights of a minor to have an abortion w/out consulting the parents. Remember that at the same time, teenage girls can't get a tattoo without a parent's consent. Planned Parenthood and its ilk "promote" abortion by not presenting the horror stories of trauma experienced by women who have had abortions.

paxetaurora:
80sU2isBest...I don't want to offend anyone, and you seem a bit offended, so I am sorry. The abortion debate, I fear, is eternal, and we could argue with each other about it until the cows come home, probably.

80s:
What upset was the tone in which you presented it; made it seem like you blame pro-lifers for not taking enough action to prevent the symptoms that would lead a woman to abortion. And that's just not the case. most pro-lifers are loving, compassionate people who want to help. That's the nature of being pro-life...wanting to save babies.

[Not George Lucas]

I have to probably side with the less-popular faction here and say that I think abortion ought to be legal, accessible, and in the hands of medical professionals all over the world.

I disagree. I don't think it should be legal.

And I also believe in the absolutely unalienable right of women, all over the world, to have access to safe, reliable birth control. Period.

How is this an absolutely inalienable right?

End of story. The Pope is a great guy and I know he and Bono hang out, but I don't think that he's infallible, and I don't agree with him on birth control. Never have and never will.

You obviously have a lot to learn on the infallibility of the Pope.

When a woman's access to safe, confidential abortion is taken away, a woman is more likely to attempt to abort the child herself, or to seek an unclean, unsafe abortion.

True.

It happened, and it happens today where abortion is illegal. A tragic situation becomes ten times worse.

I could use the same argument for heroin use or slavery.

I hope to God that when I become pregnant, I will be able to support the child, or that if I am not, I will be able to give it up for adoption. I'm very afraid of being raped;

After all, being sucked through a vaccuum and shredded to death is better than rape.

it happened to a friend of mine in high school and, more recently, to another friend on the very campus on which I go to college. I have no idea how I would handle that, and I sincerely doubt that anyone who hasn't gone through it could have an idea.

So, you would prefer your friends to be dead over them being rape victims? That doesn't sound right.

I wish that I lived in a world in which abortion was not necessary.

Hey, look at that! Abortion isn't necessary! Never has been! If it were necessary, it wouldn't be a matter of choice, now, would it?

How will pro-lifers win their war on abortion?

Well it helps to not deceive ourselves.

It's doable, I think, in just a few simple steps:

1.) Stand united, as an entire anti-abortion community, unequivocally, 100% in opposition to the bombing of clinics and the murder of doctors. You know and I know that the vast majority of people who consider themselves pro-life abhor these tactics, but some people still equate "pro-life" with "doctor killer." Just like people equate "pro-choice" with "baby killer,"

You mean like self-righteous fundamentalist fanatics? I assure you every pro-lifer I know is pro-life. Not just anti-abortion, but pro-life. All life. Hell, I don't even kill bugs.

2.) Demand, with the pro-choice community, safe, affordable, and universal access to birth control.

I have no moral problems with birth control. I think it takes away a lot of the intimacy, but that really falls under personal taste.

3.) Get serious about opposition to the death penalty. Bush is laughable as a figurehead for the pro-life movement. He is, to say the least, a bit trigger-happy when it comes to capital punishment.

I agree with you completely, there. Like I said, I don't even kill bugs.

4.) Promote family planning awareness through methods other than abortion all over the world. Demand funding for women's health clinics worldwide.

I'm all for that, too.

5.) Stop making women feel guilty about their sexuality and their bodies. Guilt isn't going to help. Support will.

Agreed.

6.) Create a true "culture of life" by working for equality in education, career advancement, health care, and civil rights. Show respect for the life that's already here so a woman can feel good about bringing a child into the world, even if she's not going to keep it.

No problems there.

Sorry to rant. It's a big rant-prone subject for me, though. I guess I'm a pro-life pro-choicer, if that's possible. I want to see a world in which abortion is made obsolete, a world in which men respect women's bodies and a woman has so much control over her sexuality and her body that abortions are unheard of. But until that world gets here, abortion will remain an ugly necessity.

I still don't see how it's a necessity. Sure the world sucks, but I really believe that everyone should have a chance at life. Not just the people we pick.

Anyway, on a bit of another note (but still on topic), I hate when people argue that a fetus isn't human, but just a parasitic lump of cells. Yes, I've heard that one on more than one occasion. I've also heard the argument that since a fetus doesn't look like a person, it should count as one. Riiight....

Obviously, I'm very pro-life. I don't view abortion as a right at all. Nor do I consider it a privlege. I know that word is spelled wrong.

The way I see it, the "right to abortion" is nothing more than the governing state burdening women with God-like responsibility.

------------------
It's the Bono Action Figure!

[This message has been edited by Not George Lucas (edited 12-13-2001).]

[whammy]

Originally posted by Not George Lucas:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope to God that when I become pregnant, I will be able to support the child, or that if I am not, I will be able to give it up for adoption. I'm very afraid of being raped;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After all, being sucked through a vaccuum and shredded to death is better than rape.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it happened to a friend of mine in high school and, more recently, to another friend on the very campus on which I go to college. I have no idea how I would handle that, and I sincerely doubt that anyone who hasn't gone through it could have an idea.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, you would prefer your friends to be dead over them being rape victims? That doesn't sound right.

So you mean to tell me LUCAS;

After my wife's face was beaten to a mess(61 stitches), she was then held down with a knife to her throat and told, "if you move I'll cut your throat."

She got pregnant! Do you have any idea what her and myself went through morally, spiritually, and mentally?

She felt like she couldn't scrub her skin hard enough and yet she had his DNA growing inside her.

So your telling me she should of had the baby?

Every American is entitled to his or her opinion but UNTIL YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY GO THROUGH RAPE, don't you dare judge!

My wife and me are proud to say that we were, are, and always will be pro-life.


------------------
GOD BLESS AMERICA!

P.S.-When I say "God Bless America", I mean just that,....."God Bless America."
Just like when I was kid and said it every morning.
There is no hidden, over-educated, or abstract meaning. Just "God Bless America."


[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 12-13-2001).]

[UV2001]

I personally would NEVER have one as I just couldn't. In certain situations like rape or if the child will die before birth because it has a fatal abnormality and it's just trying to atleast be able to control when in the pregnancy the child dies or if continuing with the pregnancy would risk the mothers life considerably then I can understand. I think it is the mothers choice however I would have to say I am opposed to abortions in general.

It is still taking a life MURDER only the unborn child has no chance because it can't even fight back

[This message has been edited by UV2001 (edited 12-14-2001).]

[V Nura]

If i speak my mind..I'll explode
A friend of my dad's was an abortion doc who was killed...so in short...I really am in favor of any institution that angers people that woud murder a man who was performing a legal service...and was just making a life for his family.

[This message has been edited by Arun V (edited 12-14-2001).]

[joyfulgirl]

For me it's a spiritual issue that only I can decide. Who is to say exactly when the soul enters the body anyway? I had an abortion 22 years ago. It was absolutely the right decision for me. If you want to call me a murderer, go ahead. It was a legal procedure and I have always been at peace with it and the many blessings in my life everyday show me that the Powers That Be support me.

If the Christian-right really wants to do something positive about unwanted pregnancies, then how about an aggressive campaign to get condoms and other forms of birth control advertised on network TV.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
If the Christian-right really wants to do something positive about unwanted pregnancies, then how about an aggressive campaign to get condoms and other forms of birth control advertised on network TV.

Because taht would be selling out our beliefs. We don't want to have any part of promoting promiscuity.

[joyfulgirl]

I think it's also interesting to note that most insurance companies cover Viagra but not birth control for women. Much is done to assure that men can get off, but little is done to protect women.

I am not a Christian but follow another spiritual practice. Pro-life Christians should follow their hearts and not have abortions and allow everyone else to follow theirs as well.

Peace.

[Angela Harlem]

Whammy, you are such an incredible man, and your wife must be too (woman that is), from the way you write. Really, to have such strength after something so uncomrehendably tragic. I have so much admiration for you.


This topic is perhaps over, and tempers have flared, but one thing that came to my mind over and over again with regard to the rape issue is the attitude toward the baby. Yes, an innocent little baby. But to think a woman should go through with the pregnancy even if it means adopting it out at the end...A woman is raped, she is carrying a child that is the flesh and blood of a man that raped her...innocent? To a scared and battered vitim of rape, the child is a product of evil. Argh, I'm not explaining this clearly. I dont think I can. But I hope you can read the point I am trying to make. Everything you are you get from the man and woman that create you. Nurture plays its part later in life, but the child is still part of that evil.

I need sleep or something.