PopMart = U2's "Mr. Roboto?"

[wavesofregret]

Some guy said this to me the last time I was talking about U2 and it got me thinking. There are parallells:

Both were a huge visual and musical change for the bands

Both were concepts most fans didn't relate to

Both involved odd stage sets and garish costumes

Both shocked and drove away many fans- in Texas, vegetables were actually thrown at Styx.

Both tours hurt the bands' careers and damaged their credibility with the majority of fans, critics and the public in general and made them a running joke.

The only difference was U2 was able to salvage their careers and their reputations to become one of rock's legends, whereas Styx was washed up, broke up, and now must tour on a much smaller scale without the original lineup. (the drummer died and the singer claims he was stiffed. Tommy Shaw originally left the band due to his hatred for Mr. Roboto and the fans' rejection but is back now.)

 

[wavesofregret]

Which just goes to show "daring and experimental" is not always a good thing

 

[martha]

But there's one major difference here:

Styx suck and U2 doesn't.

 

[wavesofregret]

But see, a lot of Styx's earlier stuff was good, and their fans didn't think they sucked. But they hated Mr. Roboto. Just as multitudes of U2 fans who were devoted to U2 didn't like PopMart.

 

[Nate Dogg]

Pop was a good, dare I say, great album.

Mr. Roboto was a piece of shit.

 

[HelloAngel]

Mr Roboto makes me laugh when I hear it up against Show Me The Way. Sorry. It just reminded me of my very limited Styx knowledge.

 

[womanfish]

This is comparing apples to oranges. U2, argueabley one of the 5 greatest bands to ever walk the planet, 2 classic albums (3 if you include War) under their belt before Popmart. Pop was hardly experimentation in my book. Zooropa is much more of an "experimental" album. Pop is just a great rock 'n' roll album.
Popmart was not much different than ZooTV. A couple of muscle shirts and cowboy hats, but damn the Fly and Macphisto and Mirror ball man all were on ZooTV.

Popmart and Pop were maligned by critics who all jumped on a bandwagon and went with it because it was time for U2 to take a few lumps again. Every time they are on top, they get knocked down a few rungs and they get up and climb to the top again.
I remember an issue of Q Magazine with U2 on the cover and a Bono quote saying - "We were loved, then hated, then loved, and now we're hated again."

It's a cycle. A cycle that many artists can't handle and end up disintegrating.

Styx in my opinion was a so-so band with a few hits but nothing that made them stand above and beyond all other bands during their time. Their music now sounds dated and lame. These 2 bands shouldn't be mentioned in the same discussion.

 

[STING2]

wavesofregret,

"Both tours hurt the bands' careers and damaged their credibility with the majority of fans, critics and the public in general and made them a running joke."

This is false. POPMART is still the third highest Grossing tour worldwide in history! It Grossed over 171 million dollars.

U2 were selling out stadiums while, Styx were unable to sellout smaller arena's.

POPMART was the highest attended and highest Grossing tour in 1997, both in the USA and Worldwide. POP the album came in at #48 on the year end album list in the USA, but Worldwide, it was one of the top 20 albums of the year, with 6 million copies sold.

So this image of POPMART being a total failure is a false one on many levels. POPs album sales were very low in the USA but it did sell 1.5 million copies. The POPMART tour was an outstanding success over all and the band picked up more money (NET) than any tour they had been on to that point.

 

[U2Kitten]

Pop is just a great rock 'n' roll album.

It was?! Sounds like techno and dance bar influenced music, and a touch of electronica. That's what the thing with it was, it WASN'T rock and roll. They had gotten away from rock and were trying something else. There are way more whistles and noises than guitar. At one point, Adam and Larry joked they might be replaced by a drum machine. That's why ATYCLB was touted as 'getting back to what they do best', and 'stripped down.' (and I'm not talking about shirtless Bono at the Copenhagen show )

Popmart was not much different than ZooTV. A couple of muscle shirts and cowboy hats, but damn the Fly and Macphisto and Mirror ball man all were on ZooTV.

Have to disagree here too. While ZOOTV was 'cool', with the Fly and Edge's bedazzled pants, the Popmart costumes were seen as more 'geeky' and 'freaky' and comical to a lot of people. I'm not just talking about critics, but real fans, people I know. That was the difference there. (this from a person with a massive picture collection )

PopMart and Pop were maligned by critics who all jumped on a bandwagon and went with it because it was time for U2 to take a few lumps again.

I don't think they trashed it because it was 'time for U2 to take some lumps.' If it had been something else more palatable to the public I don't think it would have happened. It was no conspiracy to knock U2 down. They did it to themselves with their choice of musical style, which was of course a chance they took.

Personally I think Styx was one of the best bands of their time. I liked them when I was a kid, and if you look into their lyrics there is some profound stuff there that shouldn't be disregarded. But no, they are no U2.

 

[STING2]

Styx was alright. They get lumped together with all the "AOR Bands" from the late 70s and early 80s, like Foreigner, Journey, Loverboy, and REO Speedwagon.

Now that I think about it, their currently on tour with Journey and REO Speedwagon.

 

[cujo]

But there's one major difference here:

Styx suck and U2 doesn't.

I couldn't have said it more eloquently.

Thank you very mucho Mrs. Marthato.

 

[Kristie]

what womanfish said.

 

[martha]

I couldn't have said it more eloquently.

Thank you very mucho Mrs. Marthato.

Thank you, my dear.


Listen, I saw Styx live in my senior year in high school. It was 1979/1980, so you'll have to tell me what tour it was. They sucked. Big time. I liked them until that night. (I had the famous album, the one everybody had. I can't remember the name of it right now, but you know the one I mean. This was all before Mr. Roboto.) But after that concert, I realized how bad they were. No, it wasn't an off night. They bit.

U2, on the other hand, is pretty good live.

 

[Liesje]

It was?! Sounds like techno and dance bar influenced music, and a touch of electronica.

hmmmmm, no, Pop is definitely NOT techo.

Have to disagree here too. While ZOOTV was 'cool', with the Fly and Edge's bedazzled pants, the Popmart costumes were seen as more 'geeky' and 'freaky' and comical to a lot of people. I'm not just talking about critics, but real fans, people I know. That was the difference there. (this from a person with a massive picture collection )

All the real fans I know love Pop and Popmart, this is all very relative. And from one with an equally massive picture collection, if I'm not in the right mood, MacPhisto can sure come off as pretty geeky and freaky.

BUT, this is not one of those rediculous Pop threads or whatever....I agree with Martha and Womanfish. Well said, both of you

 

[Red Ships of Scalla-Festa]

It was?! Sounds like techno and dance bar influenced music, and a touch of electronica. That's what the thing with it was, it WASN'T rock and roll. They had gotten away from rock and were trying something else. There are way more whistles and noises than guitar. At one point, Adam and Larry joked they might be replaced by a drum machine. That's why ATYCLB was touted as 'getting back to what they do best', and 'stripped down.' (and I'm not talking about shirtless Bono at the Copenhagen show )

have you ever listened to pop?

pop wasnt techno, its not techno at all. do you have no idea what techno is? you really believe there are more bells and whistles (what is it with that term anyway?) than guitars? um, no.

pop is a kickass album, and it got shredded by the reviewers for what womanfish said. they got too big. just like their next album, i seriously wonder how it will be recieved because of the success of atyclb. a shame really.

 

[david]

Other than Discotheque and Mofo, POP pretty much sounds like a U2 album.

 

[jick]

I cannot fully digest this thread because I have never heard of Styx or Mr. Roboto. But based on what you guys have been posting, looks like Styx was a band of the 80's. And based on the title "Mr. Roboto" - it looks like Radiohead drew some influence from that album in making "OK Computer."

Popmart was a failure on the US only, and mostly due to the third leg. It was popular in Europe (thanks to the Sarajevo and Belfast publicity stunts), and in South America (because it was U2's first time there). I can guarantee you, U2 can put out the crappiest album of their careers, but if they tour Southeast Asia (especially the Philippines of course) the stadiums will be packed simply because U2 have never toured here.

So I think it is unfair to generalize Popmart as a failure, but it is very safe and fair to call POP a commercial failure for U2 standards.

Cheers,

J
The King Of POP

 

[jick]

pop is a kickass album, and it got shredded by the reviewers for what womanfish said. they got too big. just like their next album, i seriously wonder how it will be recieved because of the success of atyclb. a shame really.

Pop was never shredded by the reviewers when it first came out. Pop was too difficult to understand and digest for the reviewers that they thought it must be art. So they praised it to the high heavens. It was only when the smoke cleared and Pop tanked commercially that the reviewers retracked their statements and gave POP bad year-end reviews, or looking back reviews.

Hmmm ...now that I think of it, Pop actually got a bad rap only in the ATYCLB reviews!

Cheers,

J
The King Of POP

 

[U2Kitten]

Um, okay, if some of you people really believe that Pop was dumped on because of some kind of conspiracy by the media that they were 'too big'- well, if it makes you feel better, hold onto that. But that may just be the worst attempt at justification I have ever seen, and I've seen my share, not just for this album but for other things, even political stuff.

Remember, most of the critics didn't even know each other, so it's not like they all got together and plotted to drag U2 down. Yeah sure, they called up each other like "Psst, hey Jake, this U2 band is too big so let's trash their next album" "Gotcha, "I'm on it!" Please!! Imagine if they had tried that with ZOOTV. They were 'too big' after the JT era, wouldn't that have been a better time to try to 'give them lumps?' It wouldn't have worked, because ZOOTV and AB were TOO GOOD and too many people liked them. Do you really think fans would fall for that crap anyway? But it doesn't matter, because it didn't happen. Jick is right that the initial Pop reviews were not bad, it was only later, so there goes the theory of it being time to make them take lumps and knock them down! I'm sorry but that conspiracy theory is just flat out ridiculous for so many reasons!

I found parts womanfish's post laughable, and to see so many of you agree, it only shows me you are desperately looking for any justification as to why this album you love so much wasn't loved by enough others. Why should it matter? If you like it, just enjoy it and don't worry about it. You don't have to rationalize it that there was something wrong with the critics and other fans who didn't care for it. A lot movies I like close the first week, but I don't hate every critic and fan who didn't like it and try to make excuses.
We all like different stuff, that's not a bad thing!

Well, whatever gets you through the night

 

[Blue Room]

U2Kitten, I agree with some of what you are saying. There was no conspiracy. But at least in the U.S., the media loves to build up a celebrity and then rip them the next go round. Its good publicity for the media and makes a good story for them, this is nothing unique to U2, you can point to alot of celebrities and artists and see the same thing happen. So when POP started to not do so well, alot of critics did pile on. Why? because it is a good story for them. Critics talked about the failure of the Popmart tour because it was good press for them and made a good story. However, as pointed out Popmart was no failure commercially and speaking as a fan I thought it was one of their best tours. So no, critics didnt call each other and set up U2. But alot of them do read the others columns and reviews. It doesnt take much to have a snow ball effect and if they think it makes a good story they will run with it. The same works in reverse also.

Regarding POP the album. I'am kind of on the fence with it. I loved it during the Popmart tour. However, for me, the test of album is if I'am still listening to it frequently a year or so later. Honestly, I dont listen to POP much. If I want to hear any POP songs I put in a bootleg of the tour over listening to the actual album. Its not a bad album, but definately not U2s best effort. They were rushed to get it out and I think it shows.

I also agree that Zoo TV was way more out there than Popmart. Popmart was sort of an extension of Zoo though. But MacPhisto was WAY more over the top than anything on Popmart. For Zoo, Bono was basically acting playing characters (ie The Fly and MacPhisto). There was none of this on Popmart. Based on this, Zoo was way more like Mr. Roboto. Although, I agree with most, there is no comparison between U2 and Styx. Its not even apples to oranges to me. Its more like apples to grape fruit pits.

 

[U2Kitten]

U2Kitten, I agree with some of what you are saying. There was no conspiracy.

Thanks, I was really starting to worry there for awhile!

So when POP started to not do so well, alot of critics did pile on. Why? because it is a good story for them. Critics talked about the failure of the Popmart tour because it was good press for them and made a good story.

Now I can't disagree with that. It happens. Unfortunately, it is human nature. It does happen with other celebrities, with athletes, and in real life- in school, work, neighborhood gossip fences, internet message boards Many people do enjoy finding someone who appears to be down and jumping on them, joining in and bashing them. It's sad, but it seems some find it entertaining, and maybe a boost to their own questionable self esteem.

But the thing is, that's when the critics dumped on it, AFTER it
was already down (or down by U2's lofty standards) and not in the beginning. Therefore, they did not influence or brainwash anybody against it, so it wasn't the media's fault, which is what I've been trying to say. Even the band and Paul McGuniness have been quoted as saying Pop was rushed and they were not pleased with some of the results of the album and the tour, so no need for fans to get so defensive about it. It's okay, all is well in U2 land and the legend lives on!

 

[Blue Room]

Hmm, I havent heard the band say bad things about the Popmart tour. I'am curious, what did they say bad about it? They were not ready to start the tour because the album got pushed back, but that was nothing against the concept or overall tour? Interesting.

I agree that the critics began to jump all over it with Pop "the album". So it was on its way down already. But I also think they took that and carried it over to the tour which wasnt fair or correct. But it made for a good story in their eyes.

 

[womanfish]

I'm not sure where to start with you U2Kitten. I am honestly asking myself if you have ever heard POP or went to see Popmart?!?!? Please go through the tracklisting of POP and tell me where the "techno" songs are???? Discoteque is straight rock with one of the greatest guitar riffs of all time (and that comes from a reviewer who ripped on the album as a whole). Do You Feel Loved?, Gone, Staring at the Sun, If God Will Send..., Please, Miami, Playboy Mansion, Velvet Dress, Wake UP Dead Man..... All rock my friend. Mofo was the only song IMO that had any major influence of techno or trip hop. But even with that song, those drums are played by Larry (he said it was one of his most challenging ever) and what you might think are strange bells and whistles is actually the sound of Edge's 747 guitar. Throw that in with incredible lyrics and Mofo is one of my all time faves.

If you saw Popmart you know that it was huge and full of lights and some funky getups that the guys wore. It was also a ton of fun. And still packed with feeling. They brought me to tears every time with Please - into - Streets. Bono's voice was hurting a bit that tour which did distract a little, but other than that, the 5 shows I saw were awesome.

As for critics. I never said it was a "conspiracy", but Blue Room said it well. Critics pile on. You say that critics "don't all know eachother" but I'll tell you from having some inside knowledge of this - critics are LAZY. They don't take the time to listen to every album several times getting their own perspective on it. They say, "oh I've heard this album sucks and they didn't sell out their concert here, and U2, God, they are so full of themselves, always acting like they are the biggest and the best."

Next thing you know, bad review, and the chain reaction starts. I've seen it happen to Pearl Jam, REM, Oasis, Metiallica, the list goes on and on.... And you're wrong that POP was trashed only after it was "down". Remember that the tickets for the tour went on sale BEFORE the album even came out! ticket sales were sluggish in many markets around the country compared to ZOOTV. This was when I saw the first attack from the critics. There were some initial good reviews which there always are because, lets be honest, big publications don't always have the balls to rip on a big band like U2, until it's fashionable, then they jump right in. (ie. Rolling Stone and Spin both did a 180 on Pop and trashed it after giving it good reviews)

I think the reason some people get defensive about POP is because they feel it's misunderstood, and personally I had to listen to so many so-so U2 fans bitch about that album only to find out they only heard Discoteque and never actually bought the album. It's frustrating, especially when POP is the one album I find myself going back to again and again. It is still sounding fresh in my opinion.

 

[wavesofregret]

Good God! How can you completley disregard this because YOU think "Styx sucks" and make that the 'end of story?' It's NOT 'apples and oranges' it's the same thing, a band and their fans vs. a band and their fans! It could have been a rap band or a country band and it would be the same idea!

I was also afraid this would turn into a massive defending of Pop and how great it was and how everybody who hated it is stupid, who's a 'real' fan, etc. I give up. I'm sorry I tried to have a sensible discussion.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

All the real fans I know love Pop and Popmart, this is all very relative.

whoah. are you trying to say that only real fans like pop? i'm not sure.

this thread really needs to get back on topic. this thread was started to discuss if U2's popmart was styx's mr. roboto. it wasn't intended for people to argue whether or not pop is techno or how great or horrible the popmart tour is.

 

[Salome]

Discoteque is straight rock with one of the greatest guitar riffs of all time (and that comes from a reviewer who ripped on the album as a whole).

if you rip on the entire POP album you might just be dumb enough to claim that Discotheque (I like that song though) has one of the greatest guitar riffs of all time

POP was rushed
POPMart (at least the show that I saw) had a lot of heart and soul

and critics are ... well ... critics

 

[Blue Room]

LOL waves, settle down. It was a joke. It is my opinion, but I meant it tongue and cheek. You somehow completely disregarded my part of the post though that indicates why I dont think Popmart is anything near what Mr. Roboto was for Styx. The Zoo Tour concept was closer to the Roboto deal. I think the consensus here is that Popmart were not that much alike and not very comparable. I guess you dont like that people feel that way because you seem to think so. But you dont need to get upset about it.

Khanada, I disagree. The thread was about whether there are comparisons to the Styx Roboto tour (which was a disaster) and U2's Popmart tour. So indicating what the Popmart tour was about and the fact that it actually was successful and alot of the fans that attended it, liked it, is very relevant to the discussion. I think the consensus here is that they were nothing alike and not very comparable.

 

[womanfish]

if you rip on the entire POP album you might just be dumb enough to claim that Discotheque (I like that song though) has one of the greatest guitar riffs of all time

POP was rushed
POPMart (at least the show that I saw) had a lot of heart and soul

and critics are ... well ... critics

First I think that rushed is sometimes a good thing for U2. When they have too much time to "perfect" things they sometimes come out a little to polished for their own good.

Secondly, I think the riff in discoteque, particularly the really distorted one towards the end is so completely fantastic. We're talking one of the great riffs, no solos.

Third - no one is saying that you aren't a "real fan" if you don't like POP. It is just inconceivable to me when I hear people say that it is a techno/dance album. It's completely off base. In fact I remember a bono quote saying that they used more electronic gadgetry in Beautiful Day than most songs on POP.

And Waves, I think the problem you are running into is this. Styx and U2 are very different bands with different fanbases. I see your comparison, but the same comparison could be put to 'nsync when they did the whole Pop Odyssey tour that sold poorly and the album sold about half of the previous one. Sure there are similarities with "fans" not being as enthusiastic about an album or tour, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare the two IMO. Especially for the fact that U2 has gone on to further success and Styx hasn't. Mr. Roboto & tour was a career ender and Popmart was just a bump in the road.

 

[MaPhisto]

Styx was alright. They get lumped together with all the "AOR Bands" from the late 70s and early 80s, like Foreigner, Journey, Loverboy, and REO Speedwagon.

Now that I think about it, their currently on tour with Journey and REO Speedwagon.

haha...yea, I'll be see'ing Journey, Styx, and REO this coming tuesday in Buffalo NY...I'll let you know how it was

 

[Salome]

First I think that rushed is sometimes a good thing for U2. When they have too much time to "perfect" things they sometimes come out a little to polished for their own good.

Secondly, I think the riff in discoteque, particularly the really distorted one towards the end is so completely fantastic. We're talking one of the great riffs, no solos.

POP was not rushed in a sense that it could have been more polished,
it's rushed in a sense that it's not a really cohesive album (I know that's what some people like about it but it feels too much like 4 ep's thrown together for my personal liking) and some of the songs could have used another look at to make them more interesting musically (I think the production on POP is far more interesting than the actual music, but that is just my opinion I guess)
Discotheque is a nice example
that riff does sound very cool because of the production
the riff itself doesn't make my mouth water though