Random Music Talk CXX - Cobbler Returns to Amoeba

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Oh laz, always falling back on critics' rankings. :lol:

Suffice it to say Disintegration, not KMKMKM or THOTD, is viewed as The Cure's masterpiece. And I did not realise I was being contrarian about KMKMKM, since I never fucking hear anybody talking about it or many of the songs it contains. THOTD, sure, I've got some flak for thinking it really only has 3-4 great songs. But KMKMKM has always struck me as existing in the popular consciousness very much in a second tier of Cure albums below Disintegration, Pornography, and Wish.
 
The way I've heard it talked about I've always considered Disintegration to be their high-watermark. It's spoken of in the same way as other bands' masterpieces :shrug:
 
Axver said:
Oh laz, always falling back on critics' rankings. :lol:

Suffice it to say Disintegration, not KMKMKM or THOTD, is viewed as The Cure's masterpiece. And I did not realise I was being contrarian about KMKMKM, since I never fucking hear anybody talking about it or many of the songs it contains. THOTD, sure, I've got some flak for thinking it really only has 3-4 great songs. But KMKMKM has always struck me as existing in the popular consciousness very much in a second tier of Cure albums below Disintegration, Pornography, and Wish.
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It's called "consensus". Not one critic. And Disintegration, THOTD and KMKMKM all have a 4.5 star user rating on Amazon. What's so special about your opinion?

Yes, Disintegration is widely considered their best. That doesn't make the other two subpar or second-tier.
 
cobl04 said:
They're a pretty accessible band, right. I could have started with any of them.
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Sure...except:
Axver said:
Good lord no. Mediocre album.
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Don't start with KMKMKM...in fact...just avoid it until you have nothing else by the Cure to listen to.
cobl04 said:
The way I've heard it talked about I've always considered Disintegration to be their high-watermark. It's spoken of in the same way as other bands' masterpieces :shrug:
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Because it is. It's one of the greatest albums ever recorded. It's just a touch...dense? IDK, it's long, too, so there's that. You can't go wrong with most of their stuff, but if you're going to start with one of their longer ones, might as well make it the best one.
 
Ashley claiming KMKMKM is The Cure's worst is another boneheaded call for the ages.

Y'all read this from the Pitchfork review and tell me it's not persuasive:

But then there's Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me (1987), the place where every one of these things comes together. This band is best remembered for Disintegration, yes-- it's the kind of epic, single-minded "statement" that asks to be put up on pedestals. Thing is, you don't get the kind of teenage-bedroom devotion this band got by making epic, single-minded statements. In order to get people to dress like you-- to make a whole world out of your music-- you have to offer them a whole world, one that encompasses all of their moods, every waking moment of their days.

The 18 tracks of Kiss Me's double-LP do exactly that. Every major mode of the Cure is here, and sounding better than ever, each one a realm of its own. There's grand, tormented wailing ("The Kiss", "Fight") next to tender, sunny numbers ("Catch"). There are creepy-crawly Orientalist nightmares ("The Snake Pit", "If Only Tonight We Could Sleep") and slow, sparkling romances ("One More Time"). There are bitter shouts ("Shiver and Shake"), all-pop numbers ("Just Like Heaven"), and complex intersections between the two ("Hot Hot Hot", "Why Can't I Be You?"). Smith's lyrics even find, among the usual animals and anguish, a set of linchpin images that reflect in each of those directions. There is a mouth on the cover, and the songs are full of devouring-- both the devouring mouths of desire and the fear of being consumed. Christmas gets to evoke both gaudy colors and sad nostalgia. There's the deep, dark water that would soon be all over Disintegration, and there's an endless romantic push and pull: someone so perfect that Smith asks "Why can't I be you?" and someone else so perfect that Smith asks, "You want to know why I hate you?" Some of these songs play out mixed-up emotions-- weird crossovers of depression and joy, love and loathing, anger and resignation-- that we barely have names for. Bitter torture and giddy excitement and desire, desire, desire: They all come together into one almost maniacally impassioned thing.

This is the world of the raccoon-eyed, mumbling, moping, endlessly sensitive late-80s Cure fan in one gorgeous, totally immersive package, and it's one of the most convincing, emotionally whole, and individual albums of the decade-- an entire imagined land, complete with sounds, visions, and styles, huge on romance and drama. If you were only ever to buy one Cure album, most people would point you to that landmark Disintegration, and there's every chance you'd be amazed by it. But for the whole breadth of the Cure-- and what seems like the whole head of Smith-- in one glorious package, this is the one that matters.

BYE. :wave:
 
The usual claim thrown at decent but overlong double albums is that they could have been the artist's best work if trimmed down.

I honestly don't think KMKMKM's best 12 songs would come close to beating Disintegration's 12 songs. I don't even think its best 10 songs would beat THOTD's 10 songs. After several listens, I look at that tracklisting and it's difficult for me to remember how all of the songs go, let alone pull out even half a dozen really great songs.

There's a lot of good stuff, but nowhere near enough great stuff to justify a newbie sitting through 75 minutes of material.
 
So, Sheer Heart Attack absolutely kicked my ass. What a great album. Killer Queen was the only track I knew. It's an awesome pop song but close to the worst song here, such is the strength of the rest of it.

It's such a rocking album. I've really underrated Queen thinking they were just a great pop-rock band; they actually fucking cook. So much dirty, bluesy, sweaty goodness all over this thing. There's The Who in there, Bowie (Tenement Funster is kind of like Led Zeppelin doing Moonage Daydream), even pre-empts Metallica at some points.

I love the suite of songs that runs from Tenement Funster through Lily of the Valley. In the Lap of the Gods is an absolutely wonderful song. Everything on the record is great, there's not a bad song. I think I'm gonna dig Queen :up:
 
LemonMelon said:
The usual claim thrown at decent but overlong double albums is that they could have been the artist's best work if trimmed down.

I honestly don't think KMKMKM's best 12 songs would come close to beating Disintegration's 12 songs. I don't even think its best 10 songs would beat THOTD's 10 songs. After several listens, I look at that tracklisting and it's difficult for me to remember how all of the songs go, let alone pull out even half a dozen really great songs.

There's a lot of good stuff, but nowhere near enough great stuff to justify a newbie sitting through 75 minutes of material.
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Yep. Laz's militancy about this album - and the supposed consensus, citing fucking Amazon scores - is positively bizarre.

Hell, even KMKMKM's most notable song was done a thousand times better by Dinosaur Jr.
 
It will definitely inspire the wrath of Ashley, but she's wrong.
 
Quoting reviews and posting user review scores to justify your opinion on music and "prove" you're right is fucking strange and not how this actually works.

I mean, we don't accept album sales
as the end all be all for music quality because Nickelback, ffs. Why would this be objective data?
 
I grew up on Queen, but The Cure are so much better it's not funny.

Too many Queen songs now strike me as a bit goofy.
 
Not a fan of Dinosaur Jr at all, but I really like the new Band of Horses song that J. Macsis (sp) sings on.
 
Axver said:
Yep. Laz's militancy about this album - and the supposed consensus, citing fucking Amazon scores - is positively bizarre.

Hell, even KMKMKM's most notable song was done a thousand times better by Dinosaur Jr.
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I mention the critical consensus, you turn your nose up. Then I try to show the audience's consensus. That's not good either.

You have the most obscure taste of anyone on here, most people haven't even heard of the shit you listen to, let alone enjoy it. So how you think you're some kind of arbiter of quality is beyond me.

Is Cobbler supposed to take the word of a handful of people on a U2 message board over an album that appears to have a lot of fans in both the public and the critical establishment? Don't make me fucking laugh. I was in high school when KMKMKM came out, everyone I knew who was into anything alternative/college rock was into the album. Maybe some think it's a mainstream sellout for The Cure, who knows. But I imagine that it's not the worst entry point for someone who doesn't know much about the band, just as it was 30 years ago.

IWasBored said:
Quoting reviews and posting user review scores to justify your opinion on music and "prove" you're right is fucking strange and not how this actually works.

I mean, we don't accept album sales
as the end all be all for music quality because Nickelback, ffs. Why would this be objective data?
Click to expand...

I guess most of the above can apply to you as well.

It's not about just sales. It's not about just critics. It's not just about user reviews. When you have all 3, maybe it's worth heeding. And certainly has more weight behind it than someone whose musical taste isn't very compatible.
 
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I think we all need to remind ourselves from time to time that none of us take this shit that seriously. Axver is really not claiming he's some sort of superior being, just a dude sharing his opinion, no different to what I posted about Star Wars.

let's all just take a chill pill and not get personal, it's pretty lame and tiresome. If we all got in a room together we'd be fine. Let's remember that.

Anyone else got opinions on Sheer Heart Attack? I feel like you'd be a fan Laz. Listened to it again this morning.
 
I listened to Sheer Heart Attack last night for the 3rd or 4th time after reading your post, Cobbler, and was reminded of how much I enjoy the medley route they take on that album. None of the songs are dull and the momentum the album has is pretty incredible.

A Night at the Opera is better though.
 
lazarus said:
I mention the critical consensus, you turn your nose up. Then I try to show the audience's consensus. That's not good either.

You have the most obscure taste of anyone on here, most people haven't even heard of the shit you listen to, let alone enjoy it. So how you think you're some kind of arbiter of quality is beyond me.
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Where did I say that I was some arbiter of quality? I was just questioning your claim that KMKMKM is somehow a better entry route than Disintegration. And I find it both specious and odd that you so often fall back on critics and other external measures rather than making your own argument about why you think something is superior. Don't you ever feel just a little boring that your opinions always seem to - need to? - align with some vague critical consensus? For a person who's one of the most distinctive personalities on this forum, you build up your opinions in such a bland way.

It's not about just sales. It's not about just critics. It's not just about user reviews. When you have all 3, maybe it's worth heeding. And certainly has more weight behind it than someone whose musical taste isn't very compatible.
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Yeah nah.

If I met somebody whose music collection was just the RYM top 100, sure they'd have sales, critics, and user reviews on their side, but they'd also be fucking generic and boring. I'd rather some personality, you know.
 
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