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Old 08-20-2014, 08:51 AM   #81
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Did your students understand the point you were trying to make?

Actually,
what is the point that you're trying to make?
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:53 AM   #82
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Racism: glorified hyperbole in America

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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
Did you even read my post?



The question to the students was.... "might have ancestors who were slaves."



My point was to discuss how slavery has been practice by virtually all cultures and societies at one time or another throughout history.



So, yes. I think all of us could raise our hands.

You don't think it diminishes the impact slavery has on this country. If you even had slavery in your ancestry, it's so far removed that you are not affected. A black person in the US only needs to go back a few generations and know that it was still under this constitution, this country, there are still people in the south that try and defend the south's view, and that segregation was only a few decades ago. That all still has affect. It's fine to talk about the fact that the US is not the only country to have slavery, but what you're doing is completely irresponsible and historically inaccurate.


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Old 08-20-2014, 09:05 AM   #83
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I think this is pretty much spot on. I've stayed out of this convo for a while as I don't know the details, it's hardly on the news here (though did get some coverage in the newspaper), so I can't really say much.
But it strikes me as odd that in the US, there seems to be such a focus on the race part, it's just odd. Now I won't say there's no racism in the Netherlands at all, but I don't think we've had riots like that here, nor the portrayal on the news that seems to put black people in a more negative light. I reckon most don't really care where people come from, if they break the law, they break the law. Then again, we hardly ever shoot people so I guess that prevents that debate here.
It just seems so different in the US, when you see the news shows (we have CNN here), read the papers.. it's almost like there is an obsession with race. Whether it's white people being racist, or black people claiming they can't be racist because they're black, there's always something. For instance, I've never understood why a black person is supposed to be called an African American. What if he's not from Africa, but born in the US or anywhere else in the world? It makes no sense!
Where does this difference in perception of the US versus say, Europe come from? Historically, there were slaves all over the world, also in the Netherlands and other parts of Europe.. so we share that. Where did it differ?
Geert Wilders, though?
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:14 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
Did you even read my post?

The question to the students was.... "might have ancestors who were slaves."

My point was to discuss how slavery has been practice by virtually all cultures and societies at one time or another throughout history.

So, yes. I think all of us could raise our hands.
This remains one of the stupidest points I have ever heard made. It is beyond being disingenuous. Race was never an issue in slavery say with the Romans, it did not target a specific group of people and it was also of a much different form. There is no equivalence to the mass industrial capture and enslavement in the Atlantic Slave Trade, that has lasting repercussions til this day.

It boggles the mind how people can think that treating Black people as little more than animals for 400 years can be resolved in 50.


I wouldn't crow about race relations in Europe either, the problems aren't just necessarily close to the surface. You only need to look into some quite recent troubles in France with African populations to see it isn't all cosy, or the comments made by Italian government ministers about Black people that you would never here a US politician make and actually survive on in their jobs.
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:29 AM   #85
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I wouldn't crow about race relations in Europe either, the problems aren't just necessarily close to the surface. You only need to look into some quite recent troubles in France with African populations to see it isn't all cosy, or the comments made by Italian government ministers about Black people that you would never here a US politician make and actually survive on in their jobs.
Not to mention what looks to be a growing Neo-Nazi movement in Germany and parts of north Europe.
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:36 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Salome View Post
Did your students understand the point you were trying to make?

Actually,
what is the point that you're trying to make?
I'd like this answered too.
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:39 AM   #87
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EDIT: Diemen addressed my concern - thank you, Diemen.
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:41 AM   #88
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This remains one of the stupidest points I have ever heard made.
Your post would have been much better had you just omitted this sentence.
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:43 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by LJT View Post

It boggles the mind how people can think that treating Black people as little more than animals for 400 years can be resolved in 50.
Are you referring to the end of American slavery? It's been about 150 years since the end of the Civil War.

speaking of the Civil War - I'm so proud of my great-great grandfather who fought for the Union in a Kentucky (border state) Infantry Regiment.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting 150 years is enough time to undo the injustice of slavery. I just wanted to clarify that American slavery ended about 150 years ago.
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:43 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
Did you even read my post?

The question to the students was.... "might have ancestors who were slaves."

My point was to discuss how slavery has been practice by virtually all cultures and societies at one time or another throughout history.

So, yes. I think all of us could raise our hands.
IH, do you think that your family history of slavery affects your life today in the same way that an African American's family history of slavery affects theirs?
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:09 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Your post would have been much better had you just omitted this sentence.
Apologies and to IH.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:10 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Are you referring to the end of American slavery? It's been about 150 years since the end of the Civil War.

speaking of the Civil War - I'm so proud of my great-great grandfather who fought for the Union in a Kentucky (border state) Infantry Regiment.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting 150 years is enough time to undo the injustice of slavery. I just wanted to clarify that American slavery ended about 150 years ago.

I am broadly including up until the civil rights era, just because slavery ended at that point with the civil war (plus not all of it ended with it), real progress wasn't made until much more recently.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:12 AM   #93
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Are you referring to the end of American slavery? It's been about 150 years since the end of the Civil War.
Probably referring to civil rights movements of the 60s.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:17 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by LJT View Post
I am broadly including up until the civil rights era, just because slavery ended at that point with the civil war (plus not all of it ended with it), real progress wasn't made until much more recently.
Thanks for clarifying.

Also - are you referring to regional race issues - or the entire country? I think we're all aware of the problems in the South until the Civil Rights Era, but I'm not really aware of systemic oppression in other parts of the country.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:59 AM   #95
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You do have Geert Wilders though.
Fair enough. But most of us also think he's an idiot, so there's that.




I think I actually understand the point IH is trying to make, and I kind of agree with it. Sure, racism is still there, but aren't we partially keeping it up by still putting so much emphasis on it? It was hundreds of years ago, maybe the reason why it impacts Europe less is that it's not actually covered in the media here as much with the emphasis on race.

When there's a news story and someone is shot by someone, the race of those person aren't headlines. Sure, they're mentioned in the articles.. but when I see stuff like has been pointed out here that when it's about black people there's negative associations everywhere, stuff like that, I don't think our press is quite like that.

I''m not really sure how to explain myself very well here. Maybe an example, some people here still think that the Dutch should officially apologize and pay the ancestors of the people we've hurt over the WW and at the Indonesian colonies. First things first, what happened over there was horrible and should never, ever happen again. But then that immediately raises a question in my head. Why should WE pay for something our ancestors have done? I mean, we acknowledge that part of history and that they were bad.. but isn't this something like saying the great grandchildren of the nazis should still pay for the mistakes of their ancestors?
I hope I'm not rubbing people the wrong way by making these comparisons, but I do think that part of the problem is that some people victimize themselves far too much.

Just to make clear, I'm absolutely not stating racism isn't a big issue in the US or anything like that. I just think there are two sides of the problem and both need to be adressed and fixed before things can change properly.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:07 AM   #96
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Why should WE pay for something our ancestors have done? I mean, we acknowledge that part of history and that they were bad.. but isn't this something like saying the great grandchildren of the nazis should still pay for the mistakes of their ancestors?
I am by no means an expert on this but it is my impression that reparations are generally supported by a small number of fringe factions and not really seen as a viable solution. What may be more viable is some sort of financial assistance, nation-to-nation. The thought there is that countries which have a colonial history of oppression and profit are partly where they are due to that profit, and consequently should repatriate some of it or maybe provide favourable loans or trade agreements to these nations, etc. These are complex issues and I haven't really had the time or inclination to think them through completely, just wanted to point out that generally most serious and educated people aren't talking about YOU compensating some individual across the world, but some indirect ways in which reparations could take place.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:15 AM   #97
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I think we're all aware of the problems in the South until the Civil Rights Era, but I'm not really aware of systemic oppression in other parts of the country.
The Case for Reparations - The Atlantic

Beware, it's a really long article, but an excellent read and really made me think about my own perceptions and opinions.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:12 PM   #98
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The Case for Reparations - The Atlantic

Beware, it's a really long article, but an excellent read and really made me think about my own perceptions and opinions.
I will try to set aside the alarms the immediately go off when I read the title...I will do my best to remain objective. If it's that long of an article, I may not get to it until later.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:12 PM   #99
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But then that immediately raises a question in my head. Why should WE pay for something our ancestors have done? I mean, we acknowledge that part of history and that they were bad.. but isn't this something like saying the great grandchildren of the nazis should still pay for the mistakes of their ancestors?

Because the mistakes of our ancestors are still having a lasting effect on the descendants of those discriminated against. Someone posted the "Case for Reperations" which is an excellent article and points out all the ways that blacks have been discriminated against throughout the US's history. It wasn't just slavery and Jim Crow in the South. It was redlining in the North which meant that blacks missed out on the largest accumulation of wealth in post-WW2 America. The War on Drugs and the mass incarceration of young black males is another example. Discrimination still occurs due to the mistakes of our ancestors.


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Old 08-20-2014, 12:37 PM   #100
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I will try to set aside the alarms the immediately go off when I read the title...I will do my best to remain objective. If it's that long of an article, I may not get to it until later.
Please do. It really is worth the time.
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