Racism: glorified hyperbole in America

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It is true that more than 80% of murders are by white people on white people.

I think there's value in demographics, positive or negative, but this particular term cannot be divorced from politics, nor is it applied evenly across all groups. Do we ever talk about white-on-white crime?

So talk about it! Meet someone who tries to use shady numbers with cold hard facts. Why are you telling me? I'm not using black-on-black crime as a defense for my racism. By all means, if the right talks about black-on-black crime, it's your/our job to talk back and say "look, these are the white-on-white facts, these are the black-on-white facts, and these are the white-on-black facts. And these are what they might mean and what supports that hypothesis. And this is why you're either racist or misinformed for saying that."

[iron yuppie]

I think the main issue is that using race as the demographic metric is superficial, as the underlying correlation is more accurately with poverty and other socio-economic factors.

[bobsaget77]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It is true that more than 80% of murders are by white people on white people.

Didn't know it was that high. Can you link a source for that? I'd be interested to see those numbers.



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[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I think the main issue is that using race as the demographic metric is superficial, as the underlying correlation is more accurately with poverty and other socio-economic factors.

A statistic is a statistic. It's not superficial. It's a correlation. I think the term you're looking for is underlying causation, not correlation. They're parallel correlations, but one is more likely to be the causing factor.

And I've yet to disagree with that. But this doesn't make saying "black-on-black" inherently racist. It just makes a person who tries to justify violence in the black community as a function of their being black as racist.

This reminds me of the time I got called sexist for saying that women should be allowed to play in the MLB, though biologically it would still be a league almost entirely dominated by males.

It's like I have to avoid descriptive facts and supportive evidence in the name of not hurting someone else's feelings. What's fucked up is I'm not even allowed to call someone out for being too "politically correct," because then I'll be automatically assumed and labeled as a right wing Trump supporter. They don't own/define the term "politically correct," and nor do racists own the term "black-on-black."

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by bobsaget77

Didn't know it was that high. Can you link a source for that? I'd be interested to see those numbers.



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I'm glad you posted -- I read/typed too quickly and was inaccurate. Whites are responsible for 84% of white murders. Essentially, people kill within their own ethnic group.

[iron yuppie]

I don't remember anyone saying the term "black on black" is racist. Just that it's not terribly useful in getting at the underlying problems.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I don't remember anyone saying the term "black on black" is racist. Just that it's not terribly useful in getting at the underlying problems.

I've said that the term is used by racists. It's use seems problematic at best, and it's usefulness seems to go about as far as to determine the fact that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups.

[iron yuppie]

Is there even a legal definition of black and white? I honestly don't know. It seems to me those things are primarily social constructs, and in that sense a statistic about a social construct is pretty useless unless it is based on self-identification.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I've said that the term is used by racists. It's use seems problematic at best, and it's usefulness seems to go about as far as to determine the fact that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups.

It's usefulness does indeed show that the rate of violence is higher in African American demographics. That IS important. It's important because it shouldn't be happening. I'm a perfect world, we wouldn't have crime. In a great world, crime would be color blind and equal regardless of race. But crime data is tracked by the FBI and probably other agencies within the federal government for a reason. We don't live in a great world in this context.

I would go so far as to say your assertion is wrong that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups. Well, depending on what you meant by it. I think that data suggests that people purely interact or live around their own ethnic groups.

But the correlation is important. We know it's not likely to be purely coincidence. Much like a college admission board, you want your admissions to match the demographics of both your state and your nation. It's just super important to establish the fact that just because two variables are correlated, does not mean one causes the other. There's no reason to suggest that being black simply makes you more likely to be violent. However, as we've all discussed, there is reason to suggest that poverty could/does influence crime. Both logically and quantitatively that can be supported. So, one rational conclusion to fight poverty in low income areas. What a surprise, those are disproportionately black!

You might think it's as simple as shrugging it off, but having numerous variables in play and observing several correlations at once are what allow us to have quantitative evidence for our claims. You could either tell someone "you're a racist for using the black on black argument" and develop a qualitative assessment of someone's choice of words, or you can quantitatively show them they're wrong with numbers. I think the latter proves a point.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Is there even a legal definition of black and white? I honestly don't know. It seems to me those things are primarily social constructs, and in that sense a statistic about a social construct is pretty useless unless it is based on self-identification.

Legally, on the census, you do identify yourself. Again, one might say "that's racist, we shouldn't do that." But on the contrary, demographics help us understand where we should be focusing on fixing. Example: the disproportionate amount of poor communities by income that are largely black.

Or, the fact that we have communities that lack diversity.

[bobsaget77]

Several good posts here by Lucky.


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[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

It's usefulness does indeed show that the rate of violence is higher in African American demographics. That IS important. It's important because it shouldn't be happening. I'm a perfect world, we wouldn't have crime. In a great world, crime would be color blind and equal regardless of race. But crime data is tracked by the FBI and probably other agencies within the federal government for a reason. We don't live in a great world in this context.

I would go so far as to say your assertion is wrong that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups. Well, depending on what you meant by it. I think that data suggests that people purely interact or live around their own ethnic groups.

But the correlation is important. We know it's not likely to be purely coincidence. Much like a college admission board, you want your admissions to match the demographics of both your state and your nation. It's just super important to establish the fact that just because two variables are correlated, does not mean one causes the other. There's no reason to suggest that being black simply makes you more likely to be violent. However, as we've all discussed, there is reason to suggest that poverty could/does influence crime. Both logically and quantitatively that can be supported. So, one rational conclusion to fight poverty in low income areas. What a surprise, those are disproportionately black!

You might think it's as simple as shrugging it off, but having numerous variables in play and observing several correlations at once are what allow us to have quantitative evidence for our claims. You could either tell someone "you're a racist for using the black on black argument" and develop a qualitative assessment of someone's choice of words, or you can quantitatively show them they're wrong with numbers. I think the latter proves a point.

I think the issue is that the majority of those who use the term aren't thinking about it analytically, as you have here.

They see "black" as being the cause. So while the phrase in and of itself is descriptive and not necessarily racist, it becomes a lazy crutch for racists and those who just want to turn a blind eye to the real issues at hand (your subconscious racists, so to speak).

Both sides of the aisle be do this. It's not something that's unique to Republicans (or racists). We're a nation of extremes, where, for lack of a better phrase, it has to black or white, even if the reality is many shades of gray.

[LuckyNumber7]

I'm still pissed that Donald Trump and the new Repubes stole the term "politically correct."

[BoMac]

__________________

[deep]

That looks 100% wrong, sounds like that cop is unfit and that victim will get a decent settlement. Glad the man was not more seriously injured.

[PhilsFan]

Glorified hyperbole in America.

[DaveC]

if only these darn blacks would just listen to the police and do what they say, they won't get shot by the cops!



musta been "reaching for something in his waistband"

[Irvine511]

glorified. hyperbole.

During the incident, the patient had a toy truck; Kinsey says he had been worried for the patient's safety and was surprised that he himself was shot — he tells Channel 7 that he had his hands up as high as he could get them, and had obeyed an order to lie on the ground. In a segment of the encounter with police that apparently wasn't captured on video, Kinsey was shot in the leg.

"I'm like this right here, and when he shot me, it was so surprising," Kinsey tells Channel 7. "It was like a mosquito bite, and when it hit me, I'm like, I still got my hands in the air, and I said, no, I just got shot! And I'm saying, 'Sir, why did you shoot me?' and his words to me, he said, 'I don't know.'

Black Man Says He Was Shot By North Miami Police While Lying On The Ground : The Two-Way : NPR

again: glorified. hyperbole.

[anitram]

This honestly looks and reads like a parody. Except it's all too real.

[digitize]

Usually I like to try to wait for more details to come out before making snap judgments when these things happen (a strategy I've been less sure about lately), but, holy shit, this looks truly unbelievable. Thank God this poor man survived, but... what the hell?


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