Men must speak up on abortion debate

[Canadiens1131]

If so, the question that is naturally begged is, what?

And down the slippery slope we go.

I think we're actually going UP the slippery slope.

 

[anitram]

And down the slippery slope we go.

Ah, the old slippery slope argument.

Maybe the weakest legal argument that you can make, and probably one that would get you a nice fat C on a law school exam.

Commonly used in the abortion, gay rights and human euthanasia arguments, with some ridiculous implications on occasion (what if you want to MARRY your FERRET?).

If you want to treat a fetus as a legal person with all the rights associated with a legal person, there will be some interesting conundrums. Can we jail a pregnant woman? Why are we illegally detaining a fetus who has its own rights not to be institutionalized?

In any event, this whole thing to me reeks of a war on women by the Republican Party and the teabaggers (whatever happened to them wanting less government - except when we need thousands of IRS auditors to audit abortions, then that's ok?).

 

[Irvine511]

I think we're actually going UP the slippery slope.

actually, if more people would just go down, rather than all the way, fewer straight people would get unintentionally pregnant.

/sorry

 

[kramwest1]

actually, if more people would just go down, rather than all the way, fewer straight people would get unintentionally pregnant.

/sorry

Going down on the slippery slope.

 

[yolland]

If you want to treat a fetus as a legal person with all the rights associated with a legal person, there will be some interesting conundrums.

Unfortunately 'fetal homicide' laws open the door to precisely that.

 

[nathan1977]

Sorry, I actually meant "opening can of worms." My bad. What I get, posting while writing on deadline.

 

[nathan1977]

But, while we're on the subject...

Selective Abortions Blamed For Girl Shortage In India : NPR

India's latest census revealed a disturbing trend: There are far fewer girls born each year than boys.

Activists say the disparity is deliberate.

Much of Indian culture regards boys as assets to families and girls as liabilities. Some families are using ultrasound technology to determine the gender of fetuses and then aborting the females.

...female feticide is becoming more common, despite the fact that Indian law makes it illegal to use ultrasound and other technologies to determine the gender of a fetus.

Why do families do it?

"The parents feel that the boy is a help for the future, where the girl is a liability," says Kailash Satyarthi, a founder of Global March, a group that focuses on human trafficking and child labor issues. "'If we spend money on her, then we have to spend money on her marriage, dowry probably, and then if something goes wrong, then we are always sufferers. So better that that girl is not born.'"

A counselor from the organization, Rekha Dubey, carries that message to a meeting of women in Channan Hulla, a village on the outskirts of New Delhi.

She tells a group of about 40 women gathered in a house there that female feticide is a "sin," a message that resonates with her mostly Muslim listeners.

Several of the women speak up to say that even if they could afford to use costly technologies such as ultrasound, they wouldn't do it.

When Dubey calls for a show of hands of women who are willing to fight to end the practice of female feticide, most women raise their hands.

"I think the more women become aware of their rights, the more they become stronger in terms of their economic rights, political rights," Kumari says, "then sure that women will not go for such abortions, because to save the women species, women have to come forward."

And she adds, to save themselves, men will have to come forward as well.

 

[mama cass]

^ this has been going on a long long time... it has been such a problem that doctors in the UK have been refusing to tell Indian patients the sex of their child on ultrasound scans for many years now...

i am half Indian, and when i asked what sex my baby was, 13-14 years ago in the UK, the ultrasound technician looked at me, hesitated, and then refused to tell me, even though she knew i was having a baby girl... i was a bit put out at the time, but understood why she felt she had to do that i guess, was apparently hospital policy even then...

 

[yolland]

Wow, I didn't realize they did that in the UK. There've been reports of skewed sex ratios in some South and East Asian immigrant communities here too, but I can't imagine any such hospital policy exists. Doesn't that violate antidiscrimination laws?

I too found it puzzling how the article seems to suggest this is a new problem. Presumably the new Indian census is the occasion for the topic, but...

 

[Irvine511]

But, while we're on the subject...

i fully agree with you on this ... as i've brought up before, if/when the genetic predisposition for being gay becomes known, and if/when there might be a way to likely "screen" your child for potentially being gay, there may be people who would rather have an abortion than a gay child.

however, the better way to address such potential issues isn't the banning of abortion but the changing of attitudes and economic circumstance that lead to attitudes like "boys=assets, girls=liability" and "gay=shame." as ever, the real evil here is not legal abortion, but the sexism and misogyny that render women powerless to control their own lives, particularly in more traditionalist cultures (even here in the US where unwanted pregnancies are much, much more of an issue in Red States than Blue).

 

[corianderstem]

The Elaborate Charades of the Planned Parenthood Defunding Debate.

Another good (read: horrifying) article from the same site:

What It Takes To Get An Abortion in South Dakota

 

[nathan1977]

Here is a good (read: horrifying) article on the procedures and costs of wisdom teeth removal.

Cost of Wisdom Teeth Removal - Get Information and Prices - CostHelper.com

Typical costs:
A simple wisdom tooth extraction (where the tooth is fully erupted from the gums and has simple roots) using a local anesthetic starts around $75 -$200 per tooth, or $300 -$800 to have all four removed as simple extractions.
For an impacted tooth (there's not enough room on the jaw so the wisdom tooth doesn't properly erupt through the gums), extraction costs can run $350 -$600 per tooth. General anesthetic (IV sedation to make you dopey or put you to sleep during the procedure) can add $250 -$500. With the more complicated procedures required for impacted teeth, some dentists or specialists (called oral and maxillofacial surgeons) offer a package deal for extracting all four wisdom teeth at once. In lower-cost regions the total for four extractions plus sedation can be $1,000 -$1,650, but nationwide the average cost for removing four wisdom teeth using general anesthetic runs around $1,500 -$2,300, and it can run $2,500 -$3,000 for extremely complex cases in high-cost regions. Oral surgeons typically charge at the higher end of the local price range.

Generally these fees include a follow-up office visit to check healing or remove sutures. Some dental insurance may cover 50-80 percent of the extraction costs if the procedure is considered medically necessary and not merely cosmetic.

What should be included:
It's believed that wisdom teeth are left over from a time when a rough diet and excessive wear meant primitive people lost their permanent teeth at an early age, and the wisdom teeth became replacements. Today wisdom teeth are often growing into a jaw that's too small for them and they come in at an angle or never break through the gums. These teeth are considered to be impacted, and may be subject to recurring infections, a tendency to cavities, gum disease and (more rarely) cysts and tumors. Animated-Teeth.com provides an illustrated overview of impacted wisdom teeth, as well as reasons why they might need to be removed.

Dentists can remove wisdom teeth, but often they will refer patients to an oral surgeon. Typically wisdom teeth will be removed in a dentist's or oral surgeon's office, but in some cases the procedure might be done in a hospital (if you are having four extremely impacted teeth pulled at once or have a high risk of complications).

After numbing the area around the tooth and/or administering general anesthetic, the oral surgeon/dentist will open the gum tissue above the wisdom tooth and remove any bone covering the tooth, separate the tissue connecting the tooth to the bone and remove the tooth. The area is then closed with stitches, which may dissolve over time or need to be removed after a few days. In most cases, the recovery period lasts a few days, although it can take a few weeks. Typically you will need to eat liquid or extremely soft foods for several days. WebMD.com provides an overview of the process.

Additional costs:
Related costs may include an initial consultation ($50 -$135) and X-rays ($13 -$135); check in advance to see if these costs are included in your total price.

Discounts:
Dental college clinics may offer reduced rates for work by supervised students or faculty; check DentalSite.com for school locations.
State dental societies sometimes provide financial assistance for low-income patients.

Shopping for wisdom teeth removal:
A dentist or oral surgeon will need to examine your mouth to be able to give an opinion about the need to remove one or all of your wisdom teeth, and whether to use local anesthetic or sedation. You may want to get more than one opinion and price quote. Check with the American Dental Association or the American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons to find members in your area. If you have dental insurance, the company will list approved dentists and oral surgeons.


...Should it be cheaper and easier to get an abortion (generally accepted to be a more difficult and more controversial surgical procedure) than to get your wisdom teeth out?

 

[corianderstem]

Never mind.

Have fun with that wisdom tooth analogy.

 

[nathan1977]

I'm reading your opening line as a snarky comment on my previous post, and I don't even know what point you're trying to make other than "medical care is expensive and the cost varies by procedure." Yes, welcome to the weird and problematic state of health care in America.

My point is that I don't think it's "horrifying" that, if you want to get an abortion, you need to wait three days, be advised of all your medical options, and pay for it. You have to jump through a lot more hoops and pay a much higher price to get your wisdom teeth out, and generally speaking, abortions carry much more significant physical ramifications, for both the woman and unborn child.

 

[corianderstem]

I'd say that speaks more to the weird and headache-inducing state of health care in the US.

There are risks with any medical procedure, and it's my understanding that the anti-abortion folks have played a little fast and loose with the "dangers" to women of a safe and legal abortion. Unsafe, illegal abortions have far more significant physical ramifications for the woman and unborn child than the current safe and legal abortions.

Sorry to turn tail and run, but I can't continue this discussion (I already edited my previous comment), because the last time I did, I went to bed upset, my anger just churning through my brain for hours. I'm not doing it again.

I've reached the point where I find it very difficult to have a rational conversation because I feel passionately about this and it makes me so aggravated I lose my ability to remain polite and rational.

I don't know how to continue to be polite with people who would take away my control of my own body.

Maybe I shouldn't even bother sharing links to what I think are good links. I feel the need to share my outrage, I guess.

 

[BVS]

Now we're arguing price in the abortion debate? Really?

 

[nathan1977]

I don't know how to continue to be polite with people who would take away my control of my own body.

If we're going to be grossly reductionist (and overly simplistic) about it, I don't know how to continue to be polite with people who are okay with murdering babies, but I'm trying. There is passion on both sides of the aisle on this issue, and neither is as black and white as the other would like to admit.

 

[corianderstem]

Believe me, I'm not keen on murdering babies and/or fetuses, either. I am all for keeping abortion safe and legal and reducing the need for abortion. But they must remain legal. Making abortion illegal will not stop abortions.

Okay, I'm out now. Have a nice weekend.

 

[Irvine511]

My point is that I don't think it's "horrifying" that, if you want to get an abortion, you need to wait three days, be advised of all your medical options, and pay for it. You have to jump through a lot more hoops and pay a much higher price to get your wisdom teeth out, and generally speaking, abortions carry much more significant physical ramifications, for both the woman and unborn child.

we do need to help women really think through these decisions. they do have a tendency to be emotional about their decision making and not stick to cold, hard facts. often, external factors, like having a headache or being hungry, can cloud their judgment. for example, i had a friend who wanted to get an abortion, but had to wait three days and good thing, too -- it turned out, she was just really thirsty.





(thanks to Sarah Silverman)

 

[BVS]

Here's how it comes down for me.

If you believe that abortion should be allowed for cases of rape, incest or a mother's life is at stake then abortion has to remain legal. PERIOD! There is no testing if the woman was really raped or making her go through a trial before you allow her an abortion, just plain and simple you have to keep it legal.

If you don't believe in abortion for any circumstance then you really have to question your own morality, why is it you hold the unborn above the living?

So now that we know we need to keep abortion legal let's stop having this debate, it's a waste of time. Let's focus on education, information, and doing everything we can to reduce the number of abortions.

 

[nathan1977]

we do need to help women really think through these decisions. they do have a tendency to be emotional about their decision making and not stick to cold, hard facts. often, external factors, like having a headache or being hungry, can cloud their judgment. for example, i had a friend who wanted to get an abortion, but had to wait three days and good thing, too -- it turned out, she was just really thirsty.

Sarcasm aside, generally speaking, when it comes to invasive, surgical procedures for non-life-threatening situations, especially ones that carry an element of risk, second opinions and waiting periods are a fact of life. Should abortion be any different?

I tend to agree with cori about abortions being safe, legal, and rare. I also don't have a problem with procedures to regulate abortions, as well as making sure that women are aware of all their options.

Is that a problem?

 

[Irvine511]

Sarcasm aside, generally speaking, when it comes to invasive, surgical procedures for non-life-threatening situations, especially ones that carry an element of risk, second opinions and waiting periods are a fact of life. Should abortion be any different?

I tend to agree with cori about abortions being safe, legal, and rare. I also don't have a problem with procedures to regulate abortions, as well as making sure that women are aware of all their options.

Is that a problem?

the problem is thinking at a 3-day waiting period might somehow influence a decision is really patronizing. most women don't take abortion lightly, and they don't decide to have one on a whim that might somehow be altered by an arbitrary deadline.

i also understand and actually find the pro-life position quite coherent -- so long as that pro-life position is against abortion in all circumstances (it's when the exceptions come up that the anti-woman, anti-sex, pro-punishment impulses reveal themselves). however, until these same people are going to fight for federal funding for contraception as well as single payer universal health care, then there's really no avoiding the sneaking suspicion that concern for the unborn is little more than a smokescreen for slut-shame and using children as punishment -- consequences that men, incidentally, never have to bear.

i am not looping you in with the above paragraph. it's intended to be a broader point, particularly as Planned Parenthood -- the very people who provide women's health (the pill, pap smears, etc.) to the most vulnerable women -- is under attack.

it really reminds me of the same-sex marriage debate, in a way. the people who slam gay men for being too promiscuous and/or unhealthy (STDs, substance abuse) then turn around and deny them the very tools they'd need to be less promiscuous and less substance-dependent. same situation. let's defund the very people who actually help women NOT get unintentionally pregnant.

it makes me want to slam my head against the wall in frustration.

 

[yolland]

I have a problem with cloaking a state-mandated trip to a pregnancy care center in the euphemism "medical options." That is blatantly not the purpose and it's deeply insulting to women seeking abortions to talk as if it were. A woman seeking an abortion obviously doesn't want to stay pregnant, which is the only situation pregnancy care centers serve to address.

 

[nathan1977]

the problem is thinking at a 3-day waiting period might somehow influence a decision is really patronizing.

We have waiting periods for all kinds of surgical procedures as well as real or perceived Constitutionally-protected rights (handguns, anyone?). And there are enough stories of women who have changed their minds about getting an abortion that it would seem unfair not to present them with other options.

 

[coolian2]

i have no issue with a 3 day waiting period, as long as said waiting period does not make the abortion illegal or whatever.

 

[martha]

You guys need to stop arguing with nathan. The only things that'll satisfy men like him are Pregnancy Gulags, where the women who are pregnant are to remain under suitable (male) guard until they successfully deliver. Then, after the men in control are assured the fetus has survived the dangers of the womb, both mother and child are put back into their previous situation, with no damn state-sponsored welfare, health care or anything else. It's only important to save the fetus, not the infant.

 

[martha]

Sarcasm aside, generally speaking, when it comes to invasive, surgical procedures for non-life-threatening situations, especially ones that carry an element of risk, second opinions and waiting periods are a fact of life. Should abortion be any different?

There are state-mandated waiting periods for prostate surgery? Penile implants? That's news to me.

You are insulting, condescending, and no longer worthy of anyone's time in any debate.

 

[nathan1977]

You guys need to stop arguing with nathan. The only things that'll satisfy men like him are Pregnancy Gulags, where the women who are pregnant are to remain under suitable (male) guard until they successfully deliver. Then, after the men in control are assured the fetus has survived the dangers of the womb, both mother and child are put back into their previous situation, with no damn state-sponsored welfare, health care or anything else. It's only important to save the fetus, not the infant.

Wow. Just...wow.

God bless, Martha.

 

[yolland]

I'd prefer to say good to hear from you, martha, because it's been a while, but the tone of discussion in this thread was fine until you posted just now.

If you find nathan so undeserving of your attention, then I strongly suggest you put him on your ignore list, and let others make their own decisions whether to participate in this discussion or not.

 

[anitram]

Is that a problem?

Yeah, you know what, it IS a problem.

First of all, that 72 hour period doesn't even START until after you've had your "pregnancy care center" appointment. So it is a 72-hour wait AT BEST. Why don't you go tell a woman who was raped that she should sit around for 3, 4, 5 days and meditate on just what a wonderful situation she's found herself in.

Second, the "pregnancy care center" is absolutely outrageous. It is NOT a matter of presenting women with a "second opinion" as you claim is customary with surgeries that carry risk. I'm sorry but that's total bullshit and we all know it. A second medical opinion and medical options are outlined by objective medical professionals, not a cabal of individuals who are set on promoting a certain social view.

I would like to know when men who masturbate are going to have to submit themselves to a "sacred sperm center" where they can be advised that they are potentially killing half a life every time they whack off. Or when men who want a vasectomy will have to go to a pregnancy care center where they'll have to sit and listen to ultrasounds of fetal heartbeats before their Johnny is tied off.

Never. I thought so.

I really do feel that there is an increasingly concerted war on women in America.