Israel attacks Gaza

[Irvine511]

I thought it was because of the gay sex and baby killing.

funny. i just call that "friday night."

 

[Dalton]

i hope Bono will give voice to my outrage on the new album.

That's never going to happen. I don't even think he's heard of Battlestar Galactica.

 

[Dalton]

funny. i just call that "friday night."

I don't often, but I laughed out loud.

 

[financeguy]

Venezuela Expels Israeli Ambassador , Chavez Fiercly Critical Of Gaza Conflict, Israel's "Barbarism" - CBS News

 

[financeguy]

Those crafty zionists control the media you know, thats the only explanation.

What is the basis for such a comment?

Has anyone in this thread even remotely implied that 'crafty zionists' control the media?

Do you believe that people who criticize Israel are Jew haters, is that seriously your contention?

 

[financeguy]

it's the lack of perspective and the bias in the American media that allows a story like this to be published. what about the dead kids? we need to see the dead kids so i can get upset and angry and rage against the (IDF) machine. understanding exactly *why* the IDF blew something up -- without actually excusing, justifying, or applauding the actual destruction -- is something that complicates my simplistic moral outrage, so i choose to ignore it.

i hope Bono will give voice to my outrage on the new album.

So wonderfully...nuanced.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What is the basis for such a comment?

Has anyone in this thread even remotely implied that 'crafty zionists' control the media?

Do you believe that people who criticize Israel are Jew haters, is that seriously your contention?

Do you think that the Israeli lobby influences public attitudes which are displayed in the media?

Do you think that stories which report on Hamas using human shields or abusing humanitarian resources (for instance using UNHRA ambulences to stage rocket attacks a few years ago) are given disproportionate attention for similar reasons?

Those are both perfectly defensible positions, ones which can be accepted or rejected on the basis of evidence.

Anti-zionists are having their cake and eating it too, on one hand Mearsheimer and Walt are trotted out as proof that Israel lobby has influence over the political landscape, that the Palestinians are caricatured as terrorists in a slanted media narrative because of these vested interests; on the other hand any criticism is dismissed as an ad hominem accusation of anti-semitism.

Anti-Zionism is distinct from anti-Semitism, pointing out that most anti-semites are anti-zionists and the causal arrow is one way is a legitimate point (this means that being an anti-semite may directly lead to anti-zionism much, much more than anti-zionism leads to anti-semitism).

Reflexive charges of anti-semitism or accusations of charges of anti-semitism are the most circular and stupid arguments and we ought to be able to divorce them from any discussion, my mistake was ironically alluding to attitudes which some people have (that the media denigrates Palestinians as terrorists because of Zionist interests, I think this is at best half true because the militant nature of Hamas and Islamic Jihad make it so simple).

 

[financeguy]

Do you think that the Israeli lobby influences public attitudes which are displayed in the media?)

Yes, of course it does. Or at least tries to. As does the Palestinian lobby. As does any lobby.

Do you think that stories which report on Hamas using human shields or abusing humanitarian resources (for instance using UNHRA ambulences to stage rocket attacks a few years ago) are given disproportionate attention for similar reasons?).

I suspect that they are given disproportionate attention in some media outlets, e.g., Fox. I suspect they are given little or no attention in others. I guess it depends to some extent on the outlook of the news media organisation in question.

Anti-zionists are having their cake and eating it too, on one hand Mearsheimer and Walt are trotted out as proof that Israel lobby has influence over the political landscape, that the Palestinians are caricatured as terrorists in a slanted media narrative because of these vested interests; on the other hand any criticism is dismissed as an ad hominem accusation of anti-semitism.

No, I don't really agree with that assessment. The Mearsheimer and Walt treatise was saying nothing that Noam Chomsky (who is ethnically Jewish) hasn't been saying for decades. Christ, most of the best and most nuanced critiques of Israel come from Jewish commentators. Of course, there are probably a few anti-semites who see a bandwagon approaching and jump on the bandwagon and agree with Chomsky on the specific issue of Israel. But that doesn't de-legitimise his commentary. It does, however, make it easier to dismiss the concerns raised. (Hey racists agree with that guy! He must be a racist too!)

The Mearsheimer and Walt treatise, regardless of whether it's completely right or completely wrong, said nothing that other researchers, including left-wing Jewish Israeli activists, haven't said previously. Indeed, read back to the research of the 1940's and 1950's, and criticism of Israel by anti-Zionist Jewish intellectuals was relatively commonplace. It's only more recently that anti-Zionist Jews, or even Jewish people who support the state of Israel but criticize some of its policies, are being told that they must shut up, or run the risk of being told that they are self-hating Jews. They are told by the right wing 'Likudniks' that they are race traitors, to put it bluntly.

And a lot of this reactionary type of agenda, in my view, is coming from an extreme pro-Zionist lobby mainly based in the US. We have seen anecdotal evidence of this right here in this very thread. We have also seen several links to commentary from journalists who are, in my view, part of this reactionary lobby. (e.g, Michael Ledeen, some of whose commentary regarding Iran is blatantly racist.) And this lobby is supported by some US Christianists for rather disgusting theocratic reasons. (Because they want to see the End Times happen, and they believe the Bible prophesize that a strong Israel is part of that. So, Israel must always be supported against any foe, in all circumstances, without exception, otherwise the Good Lord ain't coming back.)

Anti-Zionism is distinct from anti-Semitism, pointing out that most anti-semites are anti-zionists and the causal arrow is one way is a legitimate point (this means that being an anti-semite may directly lead to anti-zionism much, much more than anti-zionism leads to anti-semitism).

Agreed. And, of course anti-semitism exists. Of course it has not gone away.

Of course it should be condemned whenever and wherever it rears its ugly head (as for example with certain Labour and ex-Labour UK politicians that you have justifiably criticised on here.)

 

[financeguy]

Extracts from an interview with Chomsky (just for the nuanced amongst us) :

QUESTION: You've been very critical of the American liberal community and in fact you've said that they're contributing to Israel's destruction. Please talk a little bit about that.

CHOMSKY: The American liberal community since 1967 has been mobilized at an almost fanatic level in support of an expansionist Israel, and they have been consistently opposed to any political settlement. They have been in favor of the aggrandizement of Israeli power. They have used their position of quite considerable influence in the media in the political system to defeat and overcome any challenge to the system of military confrontation using all the standard techniques of vilification, defamation, closing off control over expression, etc. and it's certainly had an effect. I don't know if it was a decisive effect, but it had some noticeable effect on bringing about U.S. government support for the persistent military confrontation and U.S. government opposition to political settlement. For Israel that's destructive. In fact, Israeli doves constantly deplore it. They constantly refer to it as Stalinism. They refer to the Stalinist character of the support for Israel on the part of what they call the "Jewish community," but that's because they don't understand enough about the United States. It's not just the Jewish community, which is what they see; it's basically the intellectual community at large.

QUESTION: Edward Said, for example, has pointed out that there is much more pluralism in terms of the discussion, the debate, in Israel itself than inside the United States.

CHOMSKY: There's no question about that. For example, the editor of the Labor Party journal, the main newspaper of the Labor Party, has asked me to write regular columns. I won't do it because I'm concerned with things here, but that's totally inconceivable in the United States, you can't even imagine it, you can't even imagine an occasional op-ed. That's quite typical. Positions that I maintain, which are essentially in terms of the international consensus, they're not a majority position in Israel, but they're part of the political spectrum, they're respectable positions. Here it's considered outlandish.

Israel, the Holocaust, and Anti-Semitism, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Chronicles of Dissent)

 

[anitram]

Those crafty zionists control the media you know, thats the only explanation.

Nobody sane disputes that Hamas uses these tactics and most reasonable people would probably not be surprised by that story.

Nevertheless, if you have a headmaster who is in Islamic Jihad or you have a Hamas thug in the courtyard of a school full of refugees who is shooting his Kalashnikov, that does not justify shelling the civilians, nor is it consistent with the principles of public international law.

That's to say nothing of the bad PR that Israel brings on itself by choosing, for 60 years, to respond basically inappropriately almost every time.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The case of the school seems excessive, as do missile strikes which kill bomb makers and their entire families.

But what is the allowable response against an opponent who uses human shields?

Your argument seems to be that any attack which (knowingly?) kills civilians is unjustified and goes against the principles of international law. You cite an obvious example of disproportionate force.

The question must be framed in light of what the Israelis knew, or could have potentially known (even perhaps deliberately ignored), about the target and what went into the decision for the attack.

As obvious and unsurprising as Hamas using humanitarian resources as staging posts and stockpiles for rockets that should not exclude them from responsibility for the Israeli response (nor should it justify any and all violence against Palestinians; both sides being wrong is a truism).

What is a reasonable approach to an opponent which uses human shields, and is that approach a realistic one?

 

[anitram]

Your argument seems to be that any attack which (knowingly?) kills civilians is unjustified and goes against the principles of international law. You cite an obvious example of disproportionate force.

No that is not what my argument seems to be, and I have no idea how you concluded such a thing.

There are principles of international law respecting situations like this one, you can look them up if you wish. Even in the event that the IDF claims there were gunmen in the school, it is a clear violation of those principles to then shell the school.

You cannot apply generalizations; law is applied taking all the circumstances of a case into account. In the version of this account being peddled by the IDF itself, it is a clear and obvious violation. Period.

That is to say nothing of other incidents, which should be evaluated on their own, given their unique set of facts.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Agreed.

 

[A_Wanderer]

 

[yolland]

Extracts from an interview with Chomsky

I don't agree with the generalization that 'the American liberal community' is 'fanatically mobilized in favor of expansionism,' and I think plain old cynical apathy is a much bigger factor than Chomsky apparently perceives. The effective discipline and PR savvy of US neoconservative foreign policy lobbyists is painfully obvious, but I think a problem that's perhaps not so apparent from the outside is the exasperatingly whiny, self-pitying resignation of much of the American left on this issue. I'm not a Middle East expert, but as an academic and a political scientist, I do come into contact with more people who are reasonably well-informed and highly opinionated on Israel policy than the average American does (in the classroom, at panel discussions and conferences, in casual discussions with other scholars etc.), and it's been apparent to me for years now that there are many, many progressives out there who whine endlessly about the evils of AIPAC and the indignation of imputations of anti-Semitism, but when asked about their own experiences with these obstacles, it immediately becomes clear that in fact they don't do shit about it, ever--they don't contact their elected officials in Washington, they don't write letters, donate to or sign petitions for any of the many pro-peace organizations some of us have been supporting for decades, they don't contribute to the progressive Israel policy PAC, they don't do even the most basic local-level stuff, like engaging otherwise-inclined friends, families, fellow churchgoers etc. in constructive debate on the issue or attending peaceful coalition protests. In short, apparently all they really want to do is retreat to the sidelines and whine about being unfairly stigmatized (indirectly, of course--meaning, some pundit they admire who actually has the balls and ambition to say things they won't got slammed), rather than taking a chance on personally butting heads on understandably and predictably touchy issues which inevitably, because of the history behind them, stir up strong emotions, anxieties and resentments. I really do understand the intimidations here (from firsthand experience), but, sorry--grow the hell up. We're a multiethnic, multireligious, democratic society, and a socially and politically mature citizen should be able to calmly but critically analyze and rebut arguments that recognizably stem from a historically emotionally charged perspective (and as such, yes, can sometimes slip into paranoia or manipulativeness, whether strategically or not), without developing overblown neurotic complexes about the kinds of resistance you're likely to encounter and requiring chronic reassurance that, Yes indeed, you're the most fair and enlightened advocate any reasonable party to a dispute could ever ask for! If nothing else, it ain't that hard to write letters to politicians, sign petitions, and donate to advocacy groups whose stances you support. The more grassroots support they get, the harder they'll be to marginalize.



That's not to say that American foreign policy progressives should aim to carve out a stance just like those of Israeli or British or Canadian progressives, and certainly not a thumbs-up to countering neoconservative arguments by screeching about 'bloodthirst' or 'Likudnazis' etc., which is of course a dead-end route to achieving meaningful influence on any issue. It's just that all the self-defeating whiny cynicism from the American left about this is singularly exasperating, at least to me. As the Stephen Zunes article AliEnvy posted earlier points out, unfortunately the opposition is much, much bigger than 'the Israel lobby'--it's also the arms industry, the evangelical right, and more broadly the general American distrust of Arabs--but, we have to start somewhere.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Last night on our news they showed the absolute horror of what is going on over there and two images stood out to me.
The first one was a group of Palestinian people wailing and thrashing around while a father held a baby in his arms. The baby was obviously dead. Standing with the wailing women were around 5 or 6 young children. They camera showed a close up of their faces. They were absolutely terrified, crying and hanging on to their mothers veils.

The other image was of an israeli family praying together. The son was kneeling eyes closed whispering words of a prayer. his father is a soldier and they were praying for his safety and success in the fighting.

I realised. Its never EVER going to end. Those Palestinian children are going to grow up with hatred and revenge in their head and hearts. Family memebers have been murdered, they have no proper water/food/gas/electricity. They are mentally exhausted, frightened and fucking ANGRY. They will grow up and want to fight, to carry on from their father and so on.

The israeli family will support their soldier father. The son will no doubt grow up and become a soldier (ISrael has compulsary joining don't they?) and continue the fight for more land and complete ownership of the area.

It just makes me sad, and worried. The problem is too big for anyone, any prime minister or president to sit down and have talks and nut it out. The anger and hatred runs far too deep on either side. Not only from the bombings and the killings and the difficult time in actually LIVING, but that these two people fundamentally are different. Different religions, customs and worlds. And they've been squashed into an area the size of a peanut.

IT scares me.

 

[yolland]

Egypt floats truce plan after 42 killed in Gaza school

by Nidal al-Mughrabi (Reuters)


GAZA, Jan 7 - Israel and Hamas studied an Egyptian proposal for a ceasefire in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday that won immediate backing from the United States and Europe, hours after Israeli shells killed 42 Palestinians at a UN school. However, Israeli officials also said ministers would discuss a major escalation of their 12-day-old offensive that would push troops deep inside Gaza's cities and refugee camps in their bid to end rocket salvoes into Israel by Islamist militants.

A Palestinian official said Gaza's Hamas rulers, who want an end to Israel's blockade of the enclave, had been briefed in Egypt by President Hosni Mubarak and were debating the proposal. More than 600 Palestinians have been killed in the offensive. In New York, where the UN Security Council met on Gaza, Israeli Ambassador Gabriela Shalev told reporters: "I am sure that (Egypt's proposal) will be considered and you will find out whether it was accepted. But we take it very, very seriously." Israel, which has lost seven soldiers and four civilians in the conflict, wants any end to hostilities to satisfy its demand that Egypt cut off Hamas's supplies of smuggled weapons.

Mubarak made his ceasefire call at a joint news conference in Egypt with French President Nicolas Sarkozy. He gave little detail, but diplomats have described a process that would focus on bringing in foreign forces to seal the Egypt-Gaza border against Hamas arms smugglers while easing other trade routes. Sarkozy, winding up a two-day tour of the Middle East, said: "I am confident the Israeli authorities' reaction will make it possible to consider putting an end to the operation in Gaza." With Washington in a transition period ahead of the Jan. 20 inauguration of President-elect Barack Obama, France and its European partners, with backing from US allies in the Arab world, have been pushing hard for Israel to cease fire.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice endorsed the Mubarak proposal and said a "sustainable" ceasefire should involve both closing off Hamas's ability to rearm through tunnels from Egypt and easing the lives of the 1.5 million people of Gaza by reopening trade routes. "We need urgently to conclude a ceasefire that can endure and that can bring real security," Rice told the Security Council. She welcomed an offer by Israel to open what it called a "humanitarian corridor" that would let aid agencies more easily distribute food and medicine around Gaza while it continues its military operation.

For all the talk of a truce, however, Israel is still demanding a stop to all rocket fire--more than 30 hit the Jewish state on Tuesday--and guarantees Hamas cannot rearm. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's security cabinet, due to convene on Wednesday, would debate whether to order their armed forces to storm into the Gaza Strip's urban centres, the planned culmination of the offensive, political sources said. They said ministers may defer a vote on approving the plan. "The plan is to enter the urban centres," one source said, noting the first phase was an air campaign launched on Dec. 27 and the second a ground invasion that began on Jan. 3.

After nightfall on Tuesday, fighting eased to a sporadic explosions and gunfire across Gaza. On Tuesday, 77 civilians were killed, taking the total Palestinian death toll to 631.

Israel says it has killed dozens of militants this week. Arab and widespread international anger mounted on Tuesday when Israel acknowledged hitting a UN school where hundreds of people were taking refuge. Medics said 42 people were killed. Israel accused Hamas of using civilians as "human shields" and said troops had been returning mortar fire from the school.

An aide said Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, a bitter foe of Hamas, had ordered officials to look into taking Israel to international courts over the incident. A UN spokesman said the world body wanted an inquiry into both the incident and Israel's allegations about militants firing from schools. The school killings could intensify pressure on Israel for a ceasefire. During Israel's 2006 war against Hezbollah, the deaths of 28 unarmed Lebanese in shelling at the village of Qana intensified world pressure on Israel to negotiate a truce.

The deaths in the school prompted Obama to break his silence on the Gaza offensive and to say the loss of life among civilians was "a source of deep concern" for him. Obama said he would not engage in policy until he was in office but vowed to work rapidly thereafter to secure peace in the Middle East.

Al Qaeda's second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahri called on the Internet for Muslims to "hit the interests of the Zionists and Crusaders wherever and in whichever way you can".

Washington's allies in Arab governments have condemned the Israeli assault, which has contributed to rising oil prices.

Hamas, which has rebuffed Western demands to recognise the Jewish state, end violence and accept existing interim peace deals, has demanded a lifting of the blockade of Gaza in any truce. It seized the territory in 2007, 18 months after it won a parliamentary election. That created a schism with Abbas's Fatah faction that helped kill off the outgoing US administration's efforts to broker a peace with Israel that would have created a Palestinian state.

 

[AchtungBono]

Really wonder what the Israeli excuses will be for two hits on UN run schools. The latest killing at least 40. BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Strike on Gaza school 'kills 40'

This is just another perfect example of Hamas using their own people as human shields - as they've done so many times before.

The UN school was proven to be a launching site of Hamas for missiles and quassams against us. They hid their weapons in bunkers under the school, right under wear the children were sitting. They thought that they were safe to launch their attacks against us from there - but they were wrong and, again, innocent children were killed because Hamas didn't care about them.

As for the cowardly Hamas "leadership" - where are they now? The Palestinians in Gaza are helpless, without basic necessities, without electricity, with sewage running through the streets, with hundreds of people who have no shelter to run to......and where are the leaders? They're in their ratholes underground, shaking in their boots, hiding from us like the cowards that they are, hiding in hospitals among the doctors and patients and also hiding in ambulances - putting yet MORE civillians in danger.....and basically leaving their people to fend for themselves when their people need them the most.

The most ironic thing about this situation is that it is ISRAEL who will be providing the aid needed for the Palestinians in Gaza. Israel is allowing supply trucks with humanitarian aid to cross into Gaza to relieve some of the pressure. Do you get the irony? ISRAEL is providing the services that Hamas (as the rulers in Gaza) should be providing.

Hamas is a pathetic terrorist organization that has brought nothing but death and destruction to the Palestinian people and very soon they will be brought down to the gutter where they belong and the Palestinian people will FINALLY be free.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053455.html

 

[AchtungBono]

Venezuela Expels Israeli Ambassador , Chavez Fiercly Critical Of Gaza Conflict, Israel's "Barbarism" - CBS News

LMAO!!
Chavez....another GREAT humanitarian!
Even now he's trying to twist the arms of his legislatures in order for him to be president (i.e. DICTATOR) for life......
I think he's the LAST person to be talking about barbarism.
As for our ambassador - he'll be back.

 

[popshopper]

The case of the school seems excessive, as do missile strikes which kill bomb makers and their entire families.

But what is the allowable response against an opponent who uses human shields?

Your argument seems to be that any attack which (knowingly?) kills civilians is unjustified and goes against the principles of international law. You cite an obvious example of disproportionate force.

The question must be framed in light of what the Israelis knew, or could have potentially known (even perhaps deliberately ignored), about the target and what went into the decision for the attack.

As obvious and unsurprising as Hamas using humanitarian resources as staging posts and stockpiles for rockets that should not exclude them from responsibility for the Israeli response (nor should it justify any and all violence against Palestinians; both sides being wrong is a truism).

What is a reasonable approach to an opponent which uses human shields, and is that approach a realistic one?

The Geneva conventions are pretty clear on this. The use of Civilian Shields is prohibited, but their use in no way absolves the attacker from his obligation to protect civilian life. Israel's actions (and Hamas's) are war crimes, however as Israel is the aggressor in this instance their crime is greater.

And as stated, if you think a UN manned installation is a Hamas weapons dump then you are fool. The Israeli's either intentionally attacked the school which would be foolish (and a war crime) as it was being used as a civilian shelter and this media flap would always have happened, or some tank operator got over-excited and their covering it up (which they've done on lots of occasions when snipers have went a bit mental, the Israeli's have lots of inquiries but few result in anyone being blamed other than the poor sod who gets shot).

 

[popshopper]

This is just another perfect example of Hamas using their own people as human shields - as they've done so many times before.

The UN school was proven to be a launching site of Hamas for missiles and quassams against us. They hid their weapons in bunkers under the school, right under wear the children were sitting. They thought that they were safe to launch their attacks against us from there - but they were wrong and, again, innocent children were killed because Hamas didn't care about them.

As for the cowardly Hamas "leadership" - where are they now? The Palestinians in Gaza are helpless, without basic necessities, without electricity, with sewage running through the streets, with hundreds of people who have no shelter to run to......and where are the leaders? They're in their ratholes underground, shaking in their boots, hiding from us like the cowards that they are, hiding in hospitals among the doctors and patients and also hiding in ambulances - putting yet MORE civillians in danger.....and basically leaving their people to fend for themselves when their people need them the most.

The most ironic thing about this situation is that it is ISRAEL who will be providing the aid needed for the Palestinians in Gaza. Israel is allowing supply trucks with humanitarian aid to cross into Gaza to relieve some of the pressure. Do you get the irony? ISRAEL is providing the services that Hamas (as the rulers in Gaza) should be providing.

Hamas is a pathetic terrorist organization that has brought nothing but death and destruction to the Palestinian people and very soon they will be brought down to the gutter where they belong and the Palestinian people will FINALLY be free.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053455.html

See my previous response even if it's a legitmate miltary target the fact that civilians were known to be present (and it was known as the IDF had the GPS coordinates of the school and knew it was being used as a shelter) then the burden on the Israelis to prevent loss of civilian life is clear. In the US or UK (you know a civilised country) the officer ordering the attack would be undergoing a courtmartial by now. And it's not proven, just because the IDF (who are not neutral) say it is. The UN school was a designated shelter and was manned by UN personnel, who say it wasn't a weapons dump, the UN are far more neutral than the Israeli's who'll say anything to cover up (remember the USS Liberty and the UN observation post in 2006)

 

[AchtungBono]

See my previous response even if it's a legitmate miltary target the fact that civilians were known to be present (and it was known as the IDF had the GPS coordinates of the school and knew it was being used as a shelter) then the burden on the Israelis to prevent loss of civilian life is clear. In the US or UK (you know a civilised country) the officer ordering the attack would be undergoing a courtmartial by now. And it's not proven, just because the IDF (who are not neutral) say it is. The UN school was a designated shelter and was manned by UN personnel, who say it wasn't a weapons dump, the UN are far more neutral than the Israeli's who'll say anything to cover up (remember the USS Liberty and the UN observation post in 2006)

Popshopper,

The bodies of Hamas militants that were hiding in the building were found in the rubble.

I assume they WEREN'T there to seek shelter.........

 

[popshopper]

Popshopper,

The bodies of Hamas militants that were hiding in the building were found in the rubble.

I assume they WEREN'T there to seek shelter.........

Says who? The IDF and the Israeli and US media who get their information from the IDF. There are no independent sources allowed in the region. And even if they were, it's still a FUCKING war crime, the Geneva Convention is clear, I know the Israeli's haven't signed up to it. The UN have said there weren't "Unwra spokesman Christopher Gunness said the agency was certain Hamas militants were not using its school to attack Israeli troops." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814772.stm and Hamas have also said they werent there(although I'd trust those murderers as much as I'd trust the IDF).

And by the way when the IDF shelled the UN outpost Qana in Lebanon in 1996 (killing 100 civilians) it said the same thing then came out and apologised when the heat died down. And again when they bombed Qana in 2006. And when they bombed the UN observation post in 2006, initially it was a Hezbollah target, then suddenly when the international media outrage subsided they again apologised. And there's always the sinking of the USS Liberty. The IDF have a easily documented history of lying to cover up atrocities and then later saying "oops, sorry".

 

[AchtungBono]

Says who? The IDF and the Israeli and US media who get their information from the IDF. There are no independent sources allowed in the region. And even if they were, it's still a FUCKING war crime, the Geneva Convention is clear, I know the Israeli's haven't signed up to it. The UN have said there weren't "Unwra spokesman Christopher Gunness said the agency was certain Hamas militants were not using its school to attack Israeli troops." BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Pressure grows for Gaza ceasefire and Hamas have also said they werent there(although I'd trust those murderers as much as I'd trust the IDF).

And by the way when the IDF shelled the UN outpost Qana in Lebanon in 1996 (killing 100 civilians) it said the same thing then came out and apologised when the heat died down. And again when they bombed Qana in 2006. And when they bombed the UN observation post in 2006, initially it was a Hezbollah target, then suddenly when the international media outrage subsided they again apologised. And there's always the sinking of the USS Liberty. The IDF have a easily documented history of lying to cover up atrocities and then later saying "oops, sorry".

Look, this argument is futile. I can argue our side from here to tomorrow and my point just won't get through.

I truly value and respect every single opinion on this board - even those who condemm my country as war criminals, that is the nature of free discussion and debate. However, the fact remains that you don't live here and you can't possibly understand the terrorism that we've faced from Hamas in the 21 years since it's founding. They began with sparadic attacks against individuals and then they "graduated" to suicide bombings, perfecting their deadly methods with each passing year, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of innocent Israelis (who were TARGETED).

From 2001 they started shooting short range home-made Quassam rockets at the cities and areas around the Gaza strip, causing damage and injuries. When Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip in 2003, Hamas used the abandoned lands as launching areas to move the missiles closer to the cities of Sderot and eventually extended their range till Ashkelon. After Hamas seized power of Gaza in 2007, there was nothing standing in their way of obtaining more missiles with longer ranges - now reaching the city of Ashdod (where I live) and beyond.

As well as their missiles, Hamas built an underground network of tunnels which are used to smuggle in explosives from Egypt (with the help of Al Qaida cells in the Sinai) and to carry out attacks against our soldiers (one of which resulted in the abduction of our soldier Gilad Shalit who is still being held captive).

All through the years, Israel has endured these countless attacks with little response. In order to stop the smuggling of arms and terrorists across the borders, Israel has sealed the passes to the Gaza strip, allowing only humanitarian aid through. Hamas used this to its advantage to portray Israel as ruthless and cruel and the world (of course) bought into this propaganda - totally ignoring the CAUSE of Israel's actions.

In June of 2008 Israel and Hamas reached a "truce" which was to end the rocket attacks and allow for some sort of negotiations to go forth (with the mediation of Egypt). Naturally, Hamas took every opportunity to break the truce and continued firing at us......and still we did NOTHING. They used the so-called cease fire to re-arm themselves with longer range missiles and were just waiting for the chance to use them. That chance came on December 17th when they officially announced the end of the "truce" and commenced firing on our cities - firing over 85(!!) missiles in one day.

.....well, that was the LAST straw as far as Israel was concerned.

We knew that we couldn't keep living like this and subjecting our citizens to endless bombardments from Gaza and that's when we decided to take action.

I am NOT ignoring the plight of the Palestinian people in this regard - they are as much victims as we are. They are also captives of a brutal regime that doesn't care anything about them and their problems. Do you think that Ismael Haniya (the Hamas prime minister) actually CARES that his people are out of work, have no basic necessities, no electricity, no food? What does HE care? As long as he spends millions of dollars on arming himself against us rather than take care of his own people.

Hamas could have ended the seige of Gaza a very long time ago - it is their blind hatred and stubborness that keeps the Palestinian people in darkness and without any hope for the future.

The fact remains that we are NOT the "bad guys" in this war. We had no choice but to put an end to the reign of terror that we've been under since 2001. Our southern cities have been held hostage for long enough and the time has come to free them from this burden and hopefully, as a result, the Palestinians in Gaza will be free too.

 

[anitram]

I said this when it began - it is extremely troubling to me that Israel has prevented journalists from going in there and continues to prevent them. It's suspicious, it looks bad, and it makes me not believe a single thing Israel or Hamas say, since there can be no believable, objective third party to verify or document it.

 

[AchtungBono]

I said this when it began - it is extremely troubling to me that Israel has prevented journalists from going in there and continues to prevent them. It's suspicious, it looks bad, and it makes me not believe a single thing Israel or Hamas say, since there can be no believable, objective third party to verify or document it.

There is a good reason for this. It's not because we have anything to hide but rather to keep our soldiers safe.

Unlike the United States, who had embedded journalists when they went to war in Iraq, Israel does not have journalists tagging along with the tanks and armored carriers. The element of surprise is crucial against the enemy and to have journalists covering and reporting their every move would jeapordize the safety of the soldiers and the mission in general.

Furthermore, the soldier's cellphones were confiscated because their movements could also be pinpointed by the signals they put out.

As for information, the IDF spokesman gives briefings to the journalists and I've already posted the address of the YouTube channel started by the IDF spokesman in order for people to know what's going on.

So you see, we're not hiding anything - we're just very careful and cautious about the safety of our fighters in an ongoing campaign.

 

[popshopper]

Look, this argument is futile. I can argue our side from here to tomorrow and my point just won't get through.

I truly value and respect every single opinion on this board - even those who condemm my country as war criminals, that is the nature of free discussion and debate. However, the fact remains that you don't live here and you can't possibly understand the terrorism that we've faced from Hamas in the 21 years since it's founding. They began with sparadic attacks against individuals and then they "graduated" to suicide bombings, perfecting their deadly methods with each passing year, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of innocent Israelis (who were TARGETED).

From 2001 they started shooting short range home-made Quassam rockets at the cities and areas around the Gaza strip, causing damage and injuries. When Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip in 2003, Hamas used the abandoned lands as launching areas to move the missiles closer to the cities of Sderot and eventually extended their range till Ashkelon. After Hamas seized power of Gaza in 2007, there was nothing standing in their way of obtaining more missiles with longer ranges - now reaching the city of Ashdod (where I live) and beyond.

As well as their missiles, Hamas built an underground network of tunnels which are used to smuggle in explosives from Egypt (with the help of Al Qaida cells in the Sinai) and to carry out attacks against our soldiers (one of which resulted in the abduction of our soldier Gilad Shalit who is still being held captive).

All through the years, Israel has endured these countless attacks with little response. In order to stop the smuggling of arms and terrorists across the borders, Israel has sealed the passes to the Gaza strip, allowing only humanitarian aid through. Hamas used this to its advantage to portray Israel as ruthless and cruel and the world (of course) bought into this propaganda - totally ignoring the CAUSE of Israel's actions.

In June of 2008 Israel and Hamas reached a "truce" which was to end the rocket attacks and allow for some sort of negotiations to go forth (with the mediation of Egypt). Naturally, Hamas took every opportunity to break the truce and continued firing at us......and still we did NOTHING. They used the so-called cease fire to re-arm themselves with longer range missiles and were just waiting for the chance to use them. That chance came on December 17th when they officially announced the end of the "truce" and commenced firing on our cities - firing over 85(!!) missiles in one day.

.....well, that was the LAST straw as far as Israel was concerned.

We knew that we couldn't keep living like this and subjecting our citizens to endless bombardments from Gaza and that's when we decided to take action.

I am NOT ignoring the plight of the Palestinian people in this regard - they are as much victims as we are. They are also captives of a brutal regime that doesn't care anything about them and their problems. Do you think that Ismael Haniya (the Hamas prime minister) actually CARES that his people are out of work, have no basic necessities, no electricity, no food? What does HE care? As long as he spends millions of dollars on arming himself against us rather than take care of his own people.

Hamas could have ended the seige of Gaza a very long time ago - it is their blind hatred and stubborness that keeps the Palestinian people in darkness and without any hope for the future.

The fact remains that we are NOT the "bad guys" in this war. We had no choice but to put an end to the reign of terror that we've been under since 2001. Our southern cities have been held hostage for long enough and the time has come to free them from this burden and hopefully, as a result, the Palestinians in Gaza will be free too.

Bullshit, Israel were bombing the crap out of Gaza and the West Bank before Hamas even existed so it's a bit rich to blame everything on them. When the IRA and ETA were attacking the UK and Spain respectively, neither the UK nor the Spanish governments were dropping bombs on Dublin or San Sebastian either. The latest ceasefire ended when the Israel bombed and killed 6 people in early December, an act set up to precipate this response to allow cover for the current action which are basically to give the current coalition a shot of maintaining control after the election they were about to lose.

Israel stole their land, locked them in desolation, control their movement, bomb them continually, failed to meet your agreed obligations under international treaty and UN resolutions. You fail to even give back the extra land you stole in 1967 offering 91% of it in staged amounts as long as the you get the airspace and are able to put military bases where ever you like.

And you've let on average 3 truckloads of humanitarian supplies a day in December when there's 1.5 million people to feed, very big of you.

You act like Israel has never done anything wrong and the big bad terrorists are cause of everything...need I remind you how Israel was founded? Hotel bombings and civilian massacres where ok back then I take it.

 

[popshopper]

There is a good reason for this. It's not because we have anything to hide but rather to keep our soldiers safe.

Unlike the United States, who had embedded journalists when they went to war in Iraq, Israel does not have journalists tagging along with the tanks and armored carriers. The element of surprise is crucial against the enemy and to have journalists covering and reporting their every move would jeapordize the safety of the soldiers and the mission in general.

Furthermore, the soldier's cellphones were confiscated because their movements could also be pinpointed by the signals they put out.

As for information, the IDF spokesman gives briefings to the journalists and I've already posted the address of the YouTube channel started by the IDF spokesman in order for people to know what's going on.

So you see, we're not hiding anything - we're just very careful and cautious about the safety of our fighters in an ongoing campaign.

You've got the 5th biggest standing army in the world, complete air control, funded with US's taxpayers money and all the latest technology against an enemy who doesn't even have 1 tank. Hamas are of little threat.

You don't let Journalists in because it makes killing civilians easier.

 

[AliEnvy]

There is a good reason for this. It's not because we have anything to hide but rather to keep our soldiers safe.

I don't buy into this as a good reason. The end result is that on the world stage, it demonstrates that Israel can't be trusted which further complicates negotiations.

I'm glad you're posting again and hope that you and your family stay safe.

Your comments on Hamas leadership failures due to violent tactics are completely valid and criticism of Israel's actions does not somehow make Hamas "good guys" or less than "bad guys".

What has been bothering me through this is to get past the propaganda terrorist fear manipulation and sentimental bullshit and get to the root of why it is in the strategic interest of the US and Israel to occupy the West Bank and run Gaza as an abused ghetto against international law. Adding to that gross human rights violations and war crimes.

It seems clearer to me now that for the US and Israel, Palestinians are simply used as canon fodder as a perceived necessity to keep Iran and Syria at bay.

Unacceptable.

 

[AchtungBono]

Bullshit, Israel were bombing the crap out of Gaza and the West Bank before Hamas even existed so it's a bit rich to blame everything on them. When the IRA and ETA were attacking the UK and Spain respectively, neither the UK nor the Spanish governments were dropping bombs on Dublin or San Sebastian either. The latest ceasefire ended when the Israel bombed and killed 6 people in early December, an act set up to precipate this response to allow cover for the current action which are basically to give the current coalition a shot of maintaining control after the election they were about to lose.

Israel stole their land, locked them in desolation, control their movement, bomb them continually, failed to meet your agreed obligations under international treaty and UN resolutions. You fail to even give back the extra land you stole in 1967 offering 91% of it in staged amounts as long as the you get the airspace and are able to put military bases where ever you like.

And you've let on average 3 truckloads of humanitarian supplies a day in December when there's 1.5 million people to feed, very big of you.

You act like Israel has never done anything wrong and the big bad terrorists are cause of everything...need I remind you how Israel was founded? Hotel bombings and civilian massacres where ok back then I take it.

You're right. Our conflict with our Palestinian neighbors started before this campaign.....like 60 years(!!) or so ago. We have never had a moment's peace since the Jewish people returned to its ancient homeland and established the state in 1948. The very next day we were invaded by all of the neigboring Arab states who, even then, refused to accept our existance - and this was BEFORE Israel had any land to give back. They just didn't want us here and tried time and again to erase us from existance. The conflict didn't start in 1967 and it certainly won't end with this campaign.

Here's a brief history:

The Palestinian problem could have been solved 60 years ago if the Arabs living in Palestine had accepted the UN partition plan and put down their arms against us. The Palestinian state would have been created 60 years ago alongside Israel and the Palestinian people could have been ruling themselves and providing for themselves.

There were so many missed opportunities to solve the middle-east crisis - just to name a few:

1. After the six-day war in June 1967 when Israel captured the west bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai Penninsula. These terrirotories were captured in a defensive war which we won by the grace of G-d. These territories were never officially annexed by Israel and we've always said that we're waiting to negotiate their return in exchange for peace - which of course was out of the question for the Arab countries, until Egypt took the bold step of making peace with us in 1979 - and as a result we gave back the Sinai Penninsula.

2. Another missed opportunity (in a chain of missed opportunities) came in 1993 when Israel recognized the PLO and the Oslo agreements were signed, granting the Palestinians autonomy leading up to an eventual Palestinian state which was supposed to be established by 1998. While the Fatah party laid down their arms, Hamas raised the mantle of radical Islam and waged a murderous campaign of suicide bombers against our population.

3. In 2000, Israel reached an unprecedented decision to sign an agreement which would effectively return 97% of the west bank to the Palestinians, including dismantling the settlements. Yassar Arafat turned us down cold and missed a true once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

4. In August 2005, after realizing that we had absolutely no one to talk to on the Palestinian side after Hamas took power in Gaza, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip, dismantling settlements and relinquishing the land to the Palestinians. Israel left all the infrastructure intact and the Palestinian government could have used the land to resettle the poor people of Gaza City and to take them out of the squalor of the refugee camps…but no….they preferred to use perfectly good land to place rocket launchers and fire them into the nearby city of Sderot – it was much more important for the terrorist government to fight us instead of taking care of the needs of their own people.

5. Iran is pledging hundreds of millions of dollars to the Palestinians. Do you think it’s for food and medicine? Think again. The Hamas government will use this money to arm themselves with more sophisticated weapons and long-range missiles that will put us AND them in grave danger.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. Time after time after time Israel has tried to reach agreements with the Palestinian governments, to no avail.


You're also right about Israel being founded on violence and bloodshed - as was every other country in the world (including the United States). Independence isn't achieved by folk dancing and cotton candy - it is won by the blood of the people and the courage of knowing that our cause is just.

As for bombing hotels......I would suggest that you read this account of the bombing of the King David hotel in Jerusalem by the Jewish resistance and then tell me that it's the same thing as strapping bombs on people to blow themselves up in restaurants and stores and busses.

The Bombing of the King David Hotel

As for civillian massacres, I assume you're referring to Dir Yassin - here's something else for you to read and see:

Israel Matzav: The truth about Dir Yassin


I suppose the United States won it's independence by having tea and crumpets with the British, right?

EVERY country is founded in violence and struggle - the only difference being that Israel is STILL locked in a daily struggle for survival and we are still defending ourselves against our enemies.