Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Misleading cartoon - most of the negative comments in the strip are the types of jabs that come from women toward other women.

Men don't talk like that.

[LJT]

I've heard plenty of these comments from blokes, and I would say even when coming from women they are informed by what has generally been a male dominated culture, a culture that expects certain things of women (and men), housewife (or say stay at home husband) vs breadwinner, but it has had much more of a negative and nefarious effect on the opportunity of women to be who they just want to be.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

Misleading cartoon - most of the negative comments in the strip are the types of jabs that come from women toward other women. Men don't talk like that.

Sorry, but many do. And women wouldn't say such things to each other if men didn't say it first.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by AEON

Men don't talk like that.

Maybe you should hang out with men more. I've heard them plenty.

[jeevey]

My feminist find of the day: the word I've been needing for quite a while.

A concern troll is a person who participates in a debate posing as an actual or potential ally who simply has some concerns they need answered before they will ally themselves with a cause. In reality they are a critic. Concern trolling in geek feminism communities can result in continual reversion to Feminism 101 discussions in attempts to appease the troll's concerns, frustrating attempts at more serious discussion. Concern trolls are not always self-aware, they may also view themselves as potential allies who have just, oddly, never met a feminist opinion they liked.

Concern trolls can be identified primarily because they will retreat from, rather than engage with or be convinced by, answers to the questions they pose. They may repeatedly ask a certain question in feminist discussions without ever absorbing or replying to answers from previous discussions. They will often back into typical anti-feminist arguments, such as expressing concern that an argument is too "extreme" or a feminist too "strident" or even "hysterical". Another common tactic is insisting that some subjects are more important than others, for example, that media depictions of women shouldn't be criticised while violence against women continues.

Concern troll - Geek Feminism Wiki

[jeevey]

Also I liked this one for identifying a very common phenomenon.

Feminism 101 discussions are discussions in which the elementary ideas of feminism are discussed, often to sceptics or critics but sometimes to potential allies who simply have not been exposed to these before or have never discussed feminism with an identified feminist.
The metaphor generally does not literally mean that the discussion is equivalent to an introductory Women's Studies or Gender Studies course at undergraduate level, more that it's the level the first sets of discussion or reading one might do about feminist ideas.


Because of the potential for education of allies, feminism 101 discussions are not always harmful. However, continual insistence on receiving Feminism 101 education has these problems:

• it frustrates detailed specific discussion of issues between feminists
• it continually centres the discussion around the experiences, perspectives and beliefs of men
• it plays into a sexist societal pattern of women needing to educate everyone around them on morality and etiquette on demand as a matter of thankless duty
• it plays into a sexist societal pattern of ignoring the existing hard work of women (who have written more feminist-perspective resources for men than one could get through in a lifetime)
• it allows concern trolls to take over a discussion space

All of the above can be exhausting and demoralising for feminists and allies. Some feminist discussions limit Feminism 101 discussions to particular threads or boards, or ban it altogether. There are some dedicated Feminism 101 resources which are designed to act as a magnet for this kind of discussion to stop it taking over all feminist discussions.

Feminism 101 discussions - Geek Feminism Wiki

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

Maybe you should hang out with men more. I've heard them plenty.

No way. Men are crass in many ways. But these comments above are not your typical male comments.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Sorry, but many do. And women wouldn't say such things to each other if men didn't say it first.

That's not entirely true. Women can be much meaner to each other - than men are mean to them.

I am surrounded by women in my life - sisters, wife, sister-in-laws, daughter, aunts, nieces...they constantly complain about the viciousness of other women. And for the most part - each of them generally prefer discussions with other men than with other women.

[jeevey]

Aeon, what you are describing is a phenomenon common not just to women, but to people of minoritized status in general. I think you are misunderstanding what the patriarchy is. It's not just the acts of individual men who dislike women, it's a whole social and ideological structure that accepts the male (and a specific, truncated version of the male) as normal, the base model so to speak, and the female as other, a secondary variation needing special accommodation. It's one of many ways that our society implements social stratification. Both men and women are affected by it. In any situation where power, status, autonomy, legitimacy and so on are granted by some to others, the tension within the non dominant group is going to be fierce. All women (and other minoritized groups) sense that there are ways to please the dominant power structure and ways to alienate it, and all sense that their current achieved position is fragile. So yes, there will always be these sorts of tense discussions among women (and others. For example think of the many tensions among black Americans about who is a "real" black person.) This does not prove that women are their own worst enemy. It demonstrates that patriarchy is a cultural power structure that is negotiated at all times by all people, and that women in particular have a lot to gain or lose from it.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by AEON

No way. Men are crass in many ways. But these comments above are not your typical male comments.

How are they not, when I've heard them plenty? It's not per se the comments that are said. It's the general train of thought of society.
Sure, women can be absolute bitches versus each other, with the petty jealousy and everything, but deep down that's rooted in jealousy and competition. While for men, it's still the age old looking down on a woman. Both sexes have the comments, but the reasons behind it are different.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

No way. Men are crass in many ways. But these comments above are not your typical male comments.

No, they are typical. I've heard many men make these comments.

Originally Posted by AEON

That's not entirely true. Women can be much meaner to each other - than men are mean to them.

I am surrounded by women in my life - sisters, wife, sister-in-laws, daughter, aunts, nieces...they constantly complain about the viciousness of other women. And for the most part - each of them generally prefer discussions with other men than with other women.

You may be surrounded by women in your life, but that doesn't mean you understand them or their world much. As both jeevey and Galeongirl pointed out, we women have to deal with being marginalized by society - which was built by men. If men weren't so cruel to women for millennia, perhaps women wouldn't be so cruel to each other.

You really need to stop downplaying what women go through, and try to walk in our shoes for a moment.

[Irvine511]

Info think that inter-minority group viciousness is a real thing and needs to be examined.

That said, the cartoon doesn't specify whonis saying these things to the woman depicted, so I think the comments can and do come from either gender.

[AEON]

In High School I lived in Boy's Homes, as a late teen I joined the Navy, I later served in the Army Infantry - and I've spent 20 years in IT (very few women). Safe to say - I've heard almost every "guy" comment out there. I promise you - most of the comments on the list I've never heard a man say...ever: You'll Never Get Laid, Fake Geek Girl, She Want to Impress Boys, Be More Feminine, You'll Never Get Laid with That Look, What Are You Wearing, Says Birth Dates of All The Members of the Band..., Was It Worth It BabyMaker.

Yes, I've heard women called whores and sluts - usually after the woman has rejected the man. And I've heard some couples struggle with a woman's career and parenting. But I've heard these comments equally from both sexes. The other comments are either made up or coming from women.

If you are going to make the human male into a caveman - then you need to be accurate about how a caveman thinks. A caveman could care less about these things in women - he just wants to have sex with whatever female is close by and get back to hanging out with the other cavemen.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

You really need to stop downplaying what women go through, and try to walk in our shoes for a moment.

Downplaying is not the same as asking for a bit of accuracy.

[AEON]

I think we can all safely assume cartoons are propaganda, right? I mean - the cartoon isn't going be emotionally charged if it showed women wearing a slightly longer dress, jeans and a sweater, or workout clothes.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

In High School I lived in Boy's Homes, as a late teen I joined the Navy, I later served in the Army Infantry - and I've spent 20 years in IT (very few women). Safe to say - I've heard almost every "guy" comment out there. I promise you - most of the comments on the list I've never heard a man say...ever: You'll Never Get Laid, Fake Geek Girl, She Want to Impress Boys, Be More Feminine, You'll Never Get Laid with That Look, What Are You Wearing, Says Birth Dates of All The Members of the Band..., Was It Worth It BabyMaker.

Yes, I've heard women called whores and sluts - usually after the woman has rejected the man. And I've heard some couples struggle with a woman's career and parenting. But I've heard these comments equally from both sexes. The other comments are either made up or coming from women.

If you are going to make the human male into a caveman - then you need to be accurate about how a caveman thinks. A caveman could care less about these things in women - he just wants to have sex with whatever female is close by and get back to hanging out with the other cavemen.

That's your experience, which is not the same as everyone else's. I've had "men" say those things to me. I once had a male co-worker tell me I wasn't a "real" woman. I have a few female geek friends and they get those comments from guys about trying to impress the boys and not being real geeks. So just because you haven't heard it does not mean it has and never will happen to others.

Originally Posted by AEON

Downplaying is not the same as asking for a bit of accuracy.

We're giving you accuracy here, but you keep downplaying it or blowing it off as propaganda.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by AEON

In High School I lived in Boy's Homes, as a late teen I joined the Navy, I later served in the Army Infantry - and I've spent 20 years in IT (very few women). Safe to say - I've heard almost every "guy" comment out there. I promise you - most of the comments on the list I've never heard a man say...ever: You'll Never Get Laid, Fake Geek Girl, She Want to Impress Boys, Be More Feminine, You'll Never Get Laid with That Look, What Are You Wearing, Says Birth Dates of All The Members of the Band..., Was It Worth It BabyMaker.

Yes, I've heard women called whores and sluts - usually after the woman has rejected the man. And I've heard some couples struggle with a woman's career and parenting. But I've heard these comments equally from both sexes. The other comments are either made up or coming from women.

If you are going to make the human male into a caveman - then you need to be accurate about how a caveman thinks. A caveman could care less about these things in women - he just wants to have sex with whatever female is close by and get back to hanging out with the other cavemen.

Wanna take a trip down my childhood to prove you wrong?

I've heard comments all my life that I'm supposed to be more feminine, wear better clothes, more female looking clothes, that I don't know shit about my favourite band when I wear their tshirts because I"m far too young...

Yes I am somewhat tomboyish, don't wear make up or dresses, I don't do girly shit like talk about nail polish or shopping, I despise that. I'd rather play videogames with my mates or go have a drink. Plus I'm physically stronger than any woman I know, I am good with technology and fix stuff around the house. I wear Converse because they're pretty much the only shoes that fit my feet, having small feet and size fuckin' 43(US mens 11). Yes I wear more comfortable clothes, jeans and shirts or a tshirt rather than tight fitting 'sexy' clothes. Because I prefer being comfortable and don't give a damn about fashion.

Primary and highschool kids can be ruthless. I've been bullied my whole life. Being called a man, ugly, loser.

Most of the people calling me this were men. Guys that told me I was far too hideous to date. That they were not gay. That I would, indeed, never get laid.

So don't fucking ever try to tell me again that men don't say these things.
YOU ARE WRONG.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

So don't fucking ever try to tell me again that men don't say these things.
YOU ARE WRONG.

Translation: your personal experience means everything and mine means nothing. Which of course - only highlights the danger of bringing in subjective data into a discussion. I guess if we had the time, we could take a worldwide poll of the "things men say about women"...

In the meantime, if you're getting your data from cartoons and memes, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by jeevey

It demonstrates that patriarchy is a cultural power structure that is negotiated at all times by all people, and that women in particular have a lot to gain or lose from it.

And what is the ultimate solution here? Matriarchy or equality? If matriarchy, how would society be better? If equality - what does gender equality look like to you? Is it more than legal equality? Are genders still allowed to be unique, yet remain equal in your eyes?

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

Translation: your personal experience means everything and mine means nothing. Which of course - only highlights the danger of bringing in subjective data into a discussion. I guess if we had the time, we could take a worldwide poll of the "things men say about women"...

In the meantime, if you're getting your data from cartoons and memes, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.

In the meantime, if you're getting your data from your own personal experience, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the female perspective on this issue

Your lack of empathy and poor sensitivity is appalling.