Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Pearl

And I don't understand why you get so riled up when someone points out that rape jokes are offensive to many women.

I'm not riled up. I just find it self absorbed that some people seem to think the offense they take is somehow special and that they should go through life without ever having to hear something that's offensive to them. And if they do hear something offensive, it needs to be apologized for and never done again. There are plenty of things that offend other people that rape-joke offendees wouldn't find offensive. And they should be treated in exactly the same way; by doing nothing.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Pearl

If a comedian is going to mock both the perv/pedophile/what have you and the rape, fine. But some rape jokes I have heard over the years gear it toward the victim rather than the rapist. They usually were the context of "she actually liked it" sort of thing.

The joke shouldn't need context of other jokes told by the same person.
Not thinking a joke is funny is fine, but I can't get my head around something thinking their consciousness is so special that something would need to be done about it.
"she actually liked it" isn't even really a joke. And if it was supposed to be, it wasn't clever.
These rapeface memes aren't going after a victim. Quite the opposite, they're making fun of the perpetrator

[Jive Turkey]

And rape jokes don't treat rape as if it's no big deal. They're jokes and jokes most often deal with serious issues in a satirical way. Murder jokes. Dead baby jokes. Catholic Priest jokes. Cancer jokes. AIDS jokes. Everyone knows these things are serious. The thing that makes it funny is the juxtaposition between the seriousness and the absurdity. It's how jokes function.

For example:

What's the difference between a Ferrari and a pile of dead babies?
There's no Ferrari in my garage.

Doesn't work so well when you substitute dead babies for a pile of bananas

[Pearl]

I get your point, JT. I do, especially since I tend to like satire. But its just knowing that there are some people out there who blame the victim and think rape is no big deal doesn't make rape jokes work well with me. There have been a rare few that I did find humorous (they were from The Onion, actually), but often I can't help but cringe.

[Jive Turkey]

That's perfectly reasonable. It's when people take it the next step and say "well, rape jokes don't work for me. I'm going to write an article about how I don't like them and how I don't think anyone should make them anymore" that I find self absorbed. But your personal reaction to the jokes is just as valid as the person's who thinks they're funny. I'm not trying to take that away from anyone

[BonosSaint]

Kathy Ritvo became the first woman trainer to train the winner of Breeders' Cup Classic, North America's richest purse for thoroughbred horse racing, when Mucho Macho Man won the race.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

not to relive the Miley Cyrus VMA debacle, but she's said that she modeled her partially great, partially embarrassing "wrecking ball" video on "nothing compares 2 U."

this is the rather awesome response from Sinead to Ms. Cyrus, and it ties in notions of patriarchy and power and sexual exploitation that have come up in this thread:






i think "wrecking ball" is a surprisingly powerful song, btw.

Only just read this, pretty impressive! Go Sinead!

Makes me wonder how Miley would respond to reading this though...

[jeevey]

Oh, they had a long back and forth that basically devolved into just name calling. Miley making fun of Sinead's mental health struggles and Sinead getting snarky and insulting.

Honestly I had mixed feelings about this response. For a woman who has a lifelong opposition to the Catholic Church Sinead's attitudes are still surprisingly Catholic. There's a lot of patriarchal prescription in there- like the belief that the choice to be publicly sexual is inherently demeaning, and that "your body is for yourself and your boyfriend". I'm not saying that Miley is right, just that Sinead's responses are complex, and open to examination themselves.

[Galeongirl]

Yeah it is a bit condescending, but I reckon there is a lot of truth in what Sinead says about the way media and the big bobos make money off women's sexuality. Sex sells, yet you don't see many videos with shirtless guys doing manly stuff!

Is it just me or was that whole thing about the body for her boyfriend weird. So when your'e someone's boy/girlfriend you now automatically gain ownership of the other's body?

[jeevey]

That was weird. I think probably what she means is that her sexuality should be private- another Christian notion, and one of those things that I think needs examination rather than being accepted by default.

[Galeongirl]

Yeah I reckon that's what she meant too, but it sounds just odd. Though I would agree that I really don't get the obsession these days with all the famous women getting naked, sex videos etc. I couldn't be further away from being a Christian, yet I do think that sexuality and especially your body is a private thing. No need to flaunt it to the world...

[anitram]

I'm just kind of bored with the Mileys and the Rihannas trying to outdo one another.

Have you seen Rihanna's "Pour it Up" video? I mean, if you thought that she had no class before, this one takes it to a new level.

It's not about feminism, it's really about art and taste and class and these girls don't have any of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehcVomMexkY

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

Yeah I reckon that's what she meant too, but it sounds just odd. Though I would agree that I really don't get the obsession these days with all the famous women getting naked, sex videos etc. I couldn't be further away from being a Christian, yet I do think that sexuality and especially your body is a private thing. No need to flaunt it to the world...

Originally Posted by anitram

I'm just kind of bored with the Mileys and the Rihannas trying to outdo one another.

Have you seen Rihanna's "Pour it Up" video? I mean, if you thought that she had no class before, this one takes it to a new level.

It's not about feminism, it's really about art and taste and class and these girls don't have any of it.

I agree that taste is really the issue here. But I've noticed with the arguments regarding Miley is that some women say if you complain about her, or any woman, being tasteless or disrespecting herself, you are slut-shaming and telling her what to do with her body. I completely disagree with that sentiment because it sounds like some people think there should no limits on what a woman does with her sexuality, and any criticism or observation is harmful towards women. For example, if I were to say women shouldn't walk around in the summer with their butt cheeks hanging out of their ultra short shorts because its trashy, does that mean I'm hurting the women's movement? Of course not. It is tacky to show that much, and I'm not a prude either. The same goes if I were to say that it really isn't a good idea to have nothing but one night stands or go into porn. Yes, I know some people go through that stage in their lives and not all porn stars are damaged. But if I were to say those choices aren't the wisest or healthiest, I fail to see how I'm tapping into patriarchal beliefs and trying to control women's bodies. I'm doing neither because I'm noting that such decisions can be quite harmful for emotional, physical, and mental reasons.

Also, the problem with Miley, Rihanna and many women in the music industry is that they treat sex like it is something gross and nasty, at least to me. Why can't they celebrate sexuality in all it's beauty? Why do they have to get so sleazy about it? I know, its about money and shock. But still...

[Galeongirl]

Yeah, you're not slut-shaming them... as it's not un-slutty to have some public decency for feck's sake.

You may be on to something there Pearl, that they treat it like something dirty. Because that's what sells, and if it's the more decent, romantic sex idea it's suddenly not interesting anymore. Not all about money and shock, but I do think that's also a part of the male dominated world. There's a reason why there's now special porn for women, that's softer and more on the romance side, and male directed porn is usually the complete oposite... different tastes.

[jeevey]

I have to add here that words like decency, taste and sleaziness are also constructs of the same world of gender and sex ideas that we all live in. They are a product of our cultural history, not essential timeless qualities. While I'm not saying that I love Miley and Rhianna, I do think the idea that public sex or sexuality is inherently dirty or demeaning needs to be examined like everything else. I have a feeling the problem is less about the publicness of the sexuality and more about the commodification, the linking of the performance of sexuality with money.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

Yeah, you're not slut-shaming them... as it's not un-slutty to have some public decency for feck's sake.

You may be on to something there Pearl, that they treat it like something dirty. Because that's what sells, and if it's the more decent, romantic sex idea it's suddenly not interesting anymore. Not all about money and shock, but I do think that's also a part of the male dominated world. There's a reason why there's now special porn for women, that's softer and more on the romance side, and male directed porn is usually the complete oposite... different tastes.

While there are some women who like raunchiness as much as men, I do agree that the more shocking sexuality is portrayed the better, because that means more money. After all, look at fashion ads. If there was one ad that was all sensual while another was raunchy (remember that Gucci ad where the model had her pubes shaved to form a "G"?), which one would generate the most attention and therefore the most sales?

Originally Posted by jeevey

I have to add here that words like decency, taste and sleaziness are also constructs of the same world of gender and sex ideas that we all live in. They are a product of our cultural history, not essential timeless qualities. While I'm not saying that I love Miley and Rhianna, I do think the idea that public sex or sexuality is inherently dirty or demeaning needs to be examined like everything else. I have a feeling the problem is less about the publicness of the sexuality and more about the commodification, the linking of the performance of sexuality with money.

Everyone had their own standards on what is demeaning or not, but I'm sure many could agree that what the music, film and other creative industries produce is too raunchy for the average person's tastes. I have yet to find someone who thinks Miley's VMA performance was awesome, in terms of artistic quality and taste.

[Galeongirl]

It's kinda funnny, in a fucked up way, how this worked out. Everyone agrees how shite that performance was, and how it was so low in all those terms you mentioned. Yet when we think of what the purpose of the whole performance was, it hit the nail right on the head. EVERYBODY talked about that performance for weeks after it happened, it had gigantic press coverage, attention everywhere. So in that case, it would seem like a brilliant move. Sadly I would reckon this means it won't be the last thing we see of these kind of performances. As it's top busine$$.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

It's kinda funnny, in a fucked up way, how this worked out. Everyone agrees how shite that performance was, and how it was so low in all those terms you mentioned. Yet when we think of what the purpose of the whole performance was, it hit the nail right on the head. EVERYBODY talked about that performance for weeks after it happened, it had gigantic press coverage, attention everywhere. So in that case, it would seem like a brilliant move. Sadly I would reckon this means it won't be the last thing we see of these kind of performances. As it's top busine$$.

Oh jeez, I know! Especially this past Halloween. I saw a lot of Miley Cyrus costumes, plus Robin Thicke costumes and the two people involved would mimic their performance. Its totally sick that Miley got what she wanted - and here in this thread, we're giving that little brat what she wanted

Yeah, someone would try to outdo Miley someday. If I were to attend the VMAs as a performer, I would dress as a nun or in a burqa. Whenever asks me why I am dressed that way, I'd say, "I want to shock people and be controversial". Too bad I'll be laughed at and forgotten in a few days.

[Galeongirl]

Yup, it's mindboggling really. On one side we're all disgusted and outraged.... yet on the other side there's people revering these actions.

[The Sad Punk]

New Zealand teen sex ring 'Roast Busters' name and shame victims

Throw these dickbags off a cliff