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Old 11-12-2012, 05:09 PM   #41
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There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:14 PM   #42
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Could a bra-burning man hater have a valid point?
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:28 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by nathan1977
There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.
I just don't think all women should be held responsible for that and/or suffer as a result. By "suffer" I mean being perceived as a certain stereotype that isn't accurate, or being labeled a man hater or worse because you hold certain views. Kind of like saying all Republicans are the same as ultra conservative Republicans, or as the rape knowledge challenged men of recent history .. just to give one example among many possible ones.


I have no issue with those bra burning women/ so called man haters. I think I owe them quite a bit, I thank them for what they did, and I admire them.

Feminists come in all forms. The old image has just morphed into what all women can be in 2012. A stay at home Mom can be a feminist, a CEO can be one. I think that's how it should be, those are the choices that all that work made possible.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:00 PM   #44
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I think extremism was probably necessary at first, in order to get anyone to pay attention.
But let's look at all other groups when applying this line thinking... Don't you think PETA said the same thing? And don't you think it's hurt the cause?

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I just don't think all women should be held responsible for that and/or suffer as a result. By "suffer" I mean being perceived as a certain stereotype that isn't accurate, or being labeled a man hater or worse because you hold certain views.
I think we all agree about this, but we're saying that no matter if it's fair or not, this is what happens. I mean look no further than this board and see how warped some posters knowledge of the Muslim religion is based on extremism.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by nathan1977
There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.
But all this talk of the bra-burning only makes the point about conservative propaganda all the more relevant, as the bra-burning never actually happened in any of the places that original critics of feminism claimed. The "extremist" element within feminism is largely an invention of the right. So when young women say they are not feminists, a lot of times they are relying on a fabricated depiction.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:14 PM   #46
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I was just going to point that out as well, iron yuppie. I'd heard in recent years how that image was often exaggerated. Which wouldn't surprise me-people get confronted with something that upsets and challenges the status quo, they'll try and exaggerate how crazy the movement is as a means of fighting back against this challenge.

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I've seen woman fighting against woman and sexism even between females as we seek to degrade others based on what our idea of a good woman is. "Slut" is thrown around an awful lot.
Yeah, this is something that is REALLY bothering me. I'm sick of turning on the TV and seeing commercials for shows where women are getting into smackdown fights all the time, or hearing stories of women attacking each other over a guy, or that sort of thing. First off, because fistfights are always obnoxious and stupid in and of themselves, and people will always look really pathetic when they get caught up in that crap. But second, because seeing women pitting themselves against each other is just...depressing. We're much better than stupid "catfight" behavior, women.

And I don't like hearing women calling each other "sluts" or "whores" or whatnot, either. I hear women complain all the time about how degrading it is to hear men use those words against women, and I fully agree, it is very degrading.

But then we turn around and use those same words on each other. What? Why? I don't get it. I don't like those words. I wouldn't want anyone calling me them. So I'm not going to call other people those words.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:38 PM   #47
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Speaking about sexism in the workplace, there's still a belief that if a woman is a boss, she is automatically a bitch and is impossible to work with. Sure, there are some female bosses who get big egos when promoted to a managment position, but so do men. The difference is, a man with a big ego is simply a jerk. But a woman with one is not only bitchy, but is not a real woman at all.
I think this is a way too generalized to really be a fair comment. I'm sure some people more people than there should be believe that, and it really is unfortunate if that's been your experience, but I really don't think it's fair to make that broad a statement as if it's just the way it is, period.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:47 PM   #48
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I think this is a way too generalized to really be a fair comment. I'm sure some people more people than there should be believe that, and it really is unfortunate if that's been your experience, but I really don't think it's fair to make that broad a statement as if it's just the way it is, period.
Sorry, making generalizations again
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:37 PM   #49
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But let's look at all other groups when applying this line thinking... Don't you think PETA said the same thing? And don't you think it's hurt the cause?
Absolutely. It undermines the ability to be taken seriously
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
But all this talk of the bra-burning only makes the point about conservative propaganda all the more relevant, as the bra-burning never actually happened in any of the places that original critics of feminism claimed. The "extremist" element within feminism is largely an invention of the right. So when young women say they are not feminists, a lot of times they are relying on a fabricated depiction.
This is interesting, iYup. I had never heard this before. moar infoz plz
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:41 PM   #51
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There's no doubt that you have to shout incredibly loud to be heard -- but the problem is when the loud shouters become the perception of the movement. So what I hear from younger voices is not really that they're not feminist -- they're just not bra-burning man-haters. I seem to remember Drew Barrymore saying something similar about ten years ago.
With all due respect (and I do respect you) that was 40 years ago. I don't think many women look to NOW, even feminists like me who were coming of age then, for any guidance. Perhaps looking back to them with a nod to its history, for its contribution.

I like the ring of feminist, but, hey, maybe the younger women can be womanists or Non-Bra-Burning, Non-Man-Hating Double X Chromosomists or something. But they will need to find their own path, their own voice.

We're not loud shouters anymore and haven't been for decades. Hell, we're barely whisperers.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:44 PM   #52
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With all due respect (and I do respect you) that was 40 years ago.
Maybe, but when was the last time you heard the term feminazi? Probably much more recently than that. The perception still exists
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:52 PM   #53
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Well, I've really only heard that from Rush Limbaugh and those who rely on him for their perception of reality and their language. Rush Limbaugh is a very good propagandist. He understands that he who controls language controls thought, but he's still fringe. Well known fringe, but fringe nonetheless.

Of course, this is the man who loves the women's movement, "especially from behind." I'm hard pressed to look to him for any serious analysis.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:58 PM   #54
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I don't know. I pay no mind to Rush Limbaugh and he gets relatively little coverage over here, but I've certainly heard the work thrown around every now and again
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:07 PM   #55
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I listen to Rush Limbaugh. Like I said, I think he is an excellent propagandist. But if you are interested, here is a little history of Rush Limbaugh and use of feminazi and the reason it is hard for me to take the term seriously.

"Feminazi": The History Of Limbaugh's Trademark Slur Against Women | Research | Media Matters for America
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:32 PM   #56
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Interesting. But my point had less to do with that specific term than it did with the prevailing perception
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:40 PM   #57
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Can't help the prevailing perception. What's done is done.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:59 PM   #58
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Which is why Nathan was speaking the truth
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:05 AM   #59
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Sure he was to an extent. But really the fact the the perception is as it may be is irrelevant. The problems persist and the journey continues. It's a battle worth fighting, like any marginalized segment of the population that may have come across as angry at some point. It's not my method, but I'm not going to apologize for it. Just improve on it. As far as the thread is concerned, I think the question is what now, not what then.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:13 AM   #60
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Sure he was to an extent. But really the fact the the perception is as it may be is irrelevant. The problems persist and the journey continues. It's a battle worth fighting, like any marginalized segment of the population that may have come across as angry at some point. It's not my method, but I'm not going to apologize for it. Just improve on it. As far as the thread is concerned, I think the question is what now, not what then.
Well said

I thought that was the question too. It's like the gay rights movement, and still having the perception that it is like it was when it first started. Both groups were angry, and I don't see what's wrong with that. Back then it might have been threatening to some people, don't see why it would be now. In my view equality for women and for gay people benefits everyone. How those groups have gone about trying to achieve that in the past is what it is. Whispering never really got anyone anywhere. When you're talking about all these different marginalized groups are you going to say that they all should have been nicer, less strident, more deferential? Don't see how you don't have to say all.
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