Jive Turkey
ONE love, blood, life
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
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This is your evidence?
Where are the statistics we were giving you a bit to get together?
Where are the statistics we were giving you a bit to get together?
So here's my original quote, with the implied grammar expanded a little bit to make clear what I was trying to say.
Okay, so the first part- women are targeted for hate speech and violence based on sex.
A quick survey of the FB memes on the link I posted and a few places can demonstrate hate speech.
Another study shows that gaming has a sexist problem - Destructoid A female-voice player receives 3 times as many negative comments as a male voice player in online gaming, many of them including slurs like slut and whore.
Zerlina Maxwell, after saying on Fox that we should focus on telling men not to rape rather than telling women not to get raped, was inundated with racist, sexist rape and death threats. A few nice examples here. Fox News Guest Receives Racist Rape And Death Threats After Arguing Guns Aren't The Solution To Rape | ThinkProgress
Sexual Threats Stifle Some Female Bloggers Female participants received 25 times as many sexually explicit and malicious messages as males.
Someone created an online game that allows you to put bruises on the face of a blogger running a kickstarter campaign.This is what online harassment looks like Links to other stuff in there too.
A stroll through the results on "online harassment women" indicates that female bloggers experience sexual harassment almost universally, with comments ranging from opinions on their fuckability or appearance to repeated threats to rape both them and their mother, and posting the woman's home address. There is a ton of info on this, mostly anecdotal but all pretty depressing.
I think maybe two separate points are getting muddled.
As far as people getting offended by a rape joke, that's fine. You're allowed to be offended. It's when people then take their personal reaction to a joke or comment and act as if it's somehow exceptional. The idea that, because they felt offended, something must be done about it, is completely self absorbed. And specifically trying to ban one particular 'brand' of joke implies that their offense is more important than anyone else's. If we're going to make anything the topic of a joke, we must make everything fair game.
There are two academic studies in there.
In the first, two players, one experienced and one not, played Halo online, using both male and female voices. The female voice received much higher rates of negative comments regardless of which player was actually using it. The second is a broad survey of internet comments. The methodology is good, and the studies are linked in the articles.
Okay, that clarifies things. But what is the number of offendees that must makes themselves known before the offender faces some type of ramifications? Let's say a comedian starts throwing around racial epithets, and twenty or twenty-five people get offended. Are those people justified in calling out the comedian?
There are two academic studies in there.
In the first, two players, one experienced and one not, played Halo online, using both male and female voices. The female voice received much higher rates of negative comments regardless of which player was actually using it. The second is a broad survey of internet comments. The methodology is good, and the studies are linked in the articles.
That said, there is certainly a difference between jokes and outright racism or sexism. Any functioning adult should be able to tell the two apart. I touched on that in a couple posts. There has to be a joke. A lot of the pictures being referenced here aren't even jokes. Hitler wasn't telling Jew jokes.
So in your estimation, something cannot be simultaneously comedic and bigoted?
Gamers and those that comment anonymously on YouTube videos? A real slice of humanity, right?
You know what happens when I play Call of Duty? I get called a faggot, a ****** (even though I'm white), a bitch, etc. It should come as no surprise that someone who is immediately singled out from the predominantly male voices would attract more attention. Same goes for a person with a foreign accent in a sea of North American ones. I hear it all the time. The study is flawed because they only tested one unique voice quality, then attributed the cause to sexism. That most certainly doesn't qualify for good methodology.
It should also come as no surprise that words like 'whore' and 'slut' pop up. In every other aspect of speech, we have words relating to women and words relating to men. Why, when it comes to profanity, is this suddenly always an issue? You know what those female gamers won't get called? Dickhead, asshole, fuck face, faggot, and any other number of names more commonly associated with men.
And yes, those words are highly sexual in nature. The majority of English profanity is highly sexual in nature. How is any of this not obvious?
And as BVS pointed out, a survey of behaviour on the internet is hardly representative of normal, everyday behaviour. The language used on line and especially in gaming is more about eliciting a response than it is about any personal beliefs behind what is being said. You're being successfully trolled.
And you still haven't demonstrated how women are less protected than minorities. You haven't even tried
The interesting thing about the slurs you mention, Jive, is that they are not specifically related to sex as part of your identity, and they don't imply someone else's access to your body the way slut and whore do. There's quite a lot loaded into those little words that male or gender neutral slurs do not. They make you feel vulnerable in ways the fuckface and dickhead do not.
I lost track with this thread, but what about stuff like this?
Louis CK - Rape - YouTube
I think this is hilarious. I really like Louis CK, he's one of the comedians pushing boundaries.
Going back now to the other parts of my sweeping assertions, part 2- women are targeted for violence based on sex.
There is lots and lots of male violence in the world. Guys hurt and kill each other for all sorts of reasons. But when women are victims it is very often on the basis of her sex- rape and domestic violence.
85% of domestic violence victims are women. Almost one third of female homicide victims are killed by an intimate parter, as compared to 3% of men. http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder. U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics state that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of arrestees for rape are male. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF
As for the protection women receive, that's actually the easiest part of the whole thing. In the US 23 states have hate crime laws protecting race, relgion and ethncity from hate crimes, but only 13 list gender. http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/state_hate_crime_laws.pdf
Gender was added to the federal list of protected groups in 2009, in the same bill that added sexual orientation and gender identity. Civil Rights Division Home Page. However, rape and sexual assault are not classified as hate crimes, even then they include group-specific slurs which would trigger a hate crime investigation if the word was kike instead of whore. Sigh.
I'm definitely with you on this one IWB. What Tosh said was bad, although like you I wasn't offended by it. I just cannot stand him because I don't think he's funny, and that's one example of why.
Also worth thinking about - why does the amount of left-wing comedians thoroughly outweigh the right-wing ones? I actually couldn't name a right-wing comedian.
Maybe I should just stop talking, but I think he makes some great (and funny) points here as well.
Louie CK: Faggot, Cunt, ****** - YouTube
The interesting thing about the slurs you mention, Jive, is that they are not specifically related to sex as part of your identity, and they don't imply someone else's access to your body the way slut and whore do. There's quite a lot loaded into those little words that male or gender neutral slurs do not. They make you feel vulnerable in ways the fuckface and dickhead do not.
It's true that gaming is a very sexist subculture, but internet trolling can be and is done by anyone. The anonymity of the internet allows for what's called dissociative anonymity- a security that your real identity is not known and you literally take on another one. It's the same phenomenon that allows for a huge range of surprising people to be collectors child porn. Once people start getting outed it's pretty devastating, because they really rely on that safety. Even the famous reddit troll Violentacrez was devastated when he was outed, and insisted that really he's a good guy.
I will stand with you and argue that these are truly horrific numbers. But I'm still having a hard time with your assertion that this shows they are "targeted based on sex", especially when you're discussing domestic violence and intimate partners. This shows me we have a male aggression issue, rather than a "targeted" victim. Love, sex and relationships spark heated emotions and anger; the problem here lies in that that anger is transferred into violence. The only reason that the numbers are shockingly one-sided is due to the fact of physical size and aggression, not targeting.Going back now to the other parts of my sweeping assertions, part 2- women are targeted for violence based on sex.
There is lots and lots of male violence in the world. Guys hurt and kill each other for all sorts of reasons. But when women are victims it is very often on the basis of her sex- rape and domestic violence.
85% of domestic violence victims are women. Almost one third of female homicide victims are killed by an intimate parter, as compared to 3% of men. http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder. U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics state that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of arrestees for rape are male. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF
I think hate crimes are difficult, in fact we've had full threads dedicated to them. But I think some of what you're arguing here is blurring the lines. Rape is violent, and most would say all of rape is hate, but by the definition of a "hate crime" would all rape fall under that category? Would all sexual assault fall under that category?As for the protection women receive, that's actually the easiest part of the whole thing. In the US 23 states have hate crime laws protecting race, relgion and ethncity from hate crimes, but only 13 list gender. http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/state_hate_crime_laws.pdf
Gender was added to the federal list of protected groups in 2009, in the same bill that added sexual orientation and gender identity. Civil Rights Division Home Page. However, rape and sexual assault are not classified as hate crimes, even then they include group-specific slurs which would trigger a hate crime investigation if the word was kike instead of whore. Sigh.
It's interesting that people feel the things we've been discussing- gender portrayal in the media, mutual pleasure and rape culture, have no bearing on whether feminism is still relevant. To me that the fact these issues exist and that we still have to discuss whether they are important, is evidence that it is.
And "rape culture"? I'm not even sure I know what that is, but I honestly think that not all rape has to do with sexism. So I really think you're being too broad and trying to cast too big of a net on this one. I think most criminal psychologists would disagree with your "other than that they feel entitled to because she is a woman" statement.
Rape culture is very real. Think Steubenville. It is also a term being used more on feminist blogs and a few news outlets.
Here are some links to get you started on understanding it:
Sabrina Nelson: Slut-Shaming and Rape Culture
Rape Culture
Steubenville Rape Case: Does America Have an Unadmitted Rape Culture Problem?
Rape has a lot to do with sexism. Any man who sees women as equals and does not think women must be obligated to have sex with him, and no doesn't mean she's being coy, will almost never rape a woman. How often do you hear about rapists telling their victims once they're done, "thanks bitch!" or "you must've really wanted it".
I don't think a wide net is being casted here. There are real gender issues involving rape, and there's no way to avoid that.