Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[deep]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I saw your pre-edited post, deep... I rated it 2 stars out of 10. This was an improvement

that was just for you,
this one gets 2 1/2 stars, still it is one of the more credible posts in here

[deep]

as someone that was alive in the 70s and someone that actually went out with members of local chapter of National Organization for Women. (just for drinks)
I met them at demonstration against my Police Chief and one captain that had met with women police officers after hours and got them drunk and raped them. Anyways, I wanted these NOW members to explain their concerns and issues in their own words to me. It was very educational. None of them complained about the orgasm deficiency. I really think this latest turn has trivialized feminism.


the orgasm equality topic, not much to discuss there in regards to society, etc.

It simply comes down to evolution, and how the species propagates itself.

Men are not having more orgasms. They are releasing sperm where evolution wants them to, to meet with women's eggs.

If love making only consisted of each partner stimulating the other orally to climax, then we could have a discussion about equality.

[Irvine511]

It's so much less complicated having sex with dudes.

[jeevey]

You guys are inadvertently making my point over and over. Most people are not trying to make babies when they go looking for an orgasm. So why are a majority of people still having sex as if they were? Unless you're trying to conceive, than you have absolutely no reason to go along with that "simple biology" business. Why are we not much more dedicated to just making sure both partners have a good time? Defending this position also makes you look like uninteresting partners...

And "Dude, my GF loves hard thrusting" is not really an adequate way to address a cultural trope. Now, if you had a nice controlled study about how many US women report howling orgasms after hard thrusting or a survey of sex acts included in erotic fictions, then I could give that some time.

And if lovemaking did consist only of oral, we would have something a lot more like equality. Neato, eh?

As for the lots of book recommendations.... that's because actual information is useful when discussing a topic. Plus, you know, finding stuff out is kinda neat.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It's so much less complicated having sex with dudes.

I'm pretty sure this is why women like gay porn and read slash. Every possibility is absolutely reciprocal. There's no default power dynamic- they have to be decided on.

Well, it's one reason, anyway...

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally Posted by BVS

Because in essence what you are saying is that the woman as an individual has absolutely no responsibility at all in that scenario. That's rather anti-feminist of you.

I agree with that. I don't know how this turned into a sex topic, but anyway..it is feminist (but not necessarily- it can be just taking your own personal responsibility for your own satisfaction, happiness, whatever) to take that responsibility. If you're not getting what you want from a relationship or one night stand, whatever you're having-then take the control over that and don't be with those types of people. Change your patterns and outlook.

Women not being in control over all of that is a long gone thing of the past. Unless you have personal issues that cause you to be drawn to those sorts of people and unhealthy situations, that cause you to think you don't deserve equal pleasure, etc. That obviously exists, but it's up to that person to recognize it and to take the necessary steps to change that. No other person can take the responsibility or blame for that. Feminism means equal rights and equal personal responsibilities. Taking control over those things is very empowering.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

You guys are inadvertently making my point over and over. Most people are not trying to make babies when they go looking for an orgasm. So why are a majority of people still having sex as if they were? Unless you're trying to conceive, than you have absolutely no reason to go along with that "simple biology" business. Why are we not much more dedicated to just making sure both partners have a good time? Defending this position also makes you look like uninteresting partners...

When your only point seems to be "it's the fault of men", I hardly see any one here making your point "over and over"
I made it quite clear why biology is important. I won't spend any more energy repeating myself. And since you're throwing around insults, the way you've been defending your position makes you sound like you've got some personal issues with men you need to take care of before tackling any of this business.

And "Dude, my GF loves hard thrusting" is not really an adequate way to address a cultural trope. Now, if you had a nice controlled study about how many US women report howling orgasms after hard thrusting or a survey of sex acts included in erotic fictions, then I could give that some time.

Again, interesting light you've chosen to illustrate my comment with (not completely unexpected). If you can't address a point without resorting to caricaturizing it (especially a point made in a completely mature manner), maybe you need to reassess what your problem is with it in the first place. It seems you can't wrap your head around the fact that some women might actually like to have sex in ways that differ from you (is "hard thrusting" not in line with your 'feminist' ideals?). My comment to you was in response to you 'rolling your eyes' as if it was outlandish that a woman might like things a bit rough. And whats more, your whole point is that men don't listen to what women want. When I mention a scenario in which I did respond to a specific need, you turn your nose up and imply I'm some sort of mouth breathing dude-bro, because that sort of sex doesn't appeal to you personally. Completely ridiculous. A little more consistency might mask your real motivations

And if lovemaking did consist only of oral, we would have something a lot more like equality. Neato, eh?

You seem to have an issue with vaginal sex.

As for the lots of book recommendations.... that's because actual information is useful when discussing a topic. Plus, you know, finding stuff out is kinda neat.

You know what's also neat? Understanding what you read, internalizing it, and expressing it to others in your own words. You should try it some time. Otherwise you just come across as someone who desperately wants to come off as well read, but can't be bothered taking the time to actually be so


My advice to you: Take care of your personal issues first, then think about reaching outward

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Every possibility is absolutely reciprocal. There's no default power dynamic- they have to be decided on.

very revealing

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

Because in essence what you are saying is that the woman as an individual has absolutely no responsibility at all in that scenario. That's rather anti-feminist of you.

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

Women not being in control over all of that is a long gone thing of the past.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

I agree with that. I don't know how this turned into a sex topic, but anyway..it is feminist (but not necessarily- it can be just taking your own personal responsibility for your own satisfaction, happiness, whatever) to take that responsibility. If you're not getting what you want from a relationship or one night stand, whatever you're having-then take the control over that and don't be with those types of people. Change your patterns and outlook.

Women not being in control over all of that is a long gone thing of the past. Unless you have personal issues that cause you to be drawn to those sorts of people and unhealthy situations, that cause you to think you don't deserve equal pleasure, etc. That obviously exists, but it's up to that person to recognize it and to take the necessary steps to change that. No other person can take the responsibility or blame for that. Feminism means equal rights and equal personal responsibilities. Taking control over those things is very empowering.

I totally agree with you that women need to take part in educating their partners about what they want. I do think though, that each partner receiving satisfaction should be assumed. The question should not be "if" but "how".

I don't have issue with vaginal sex- I have issues with the assumption that it's good enough all by itself, when for many women it's not. The assumption should be that both people are satisfied every time. The imagination might need to get a little larger and the partners more generous, brave or conscious to make that happen.

And again, Jive, the initial 'multiple O from hard thrusting' comment was about a cultural trope- how acts are used in fiction. I was rolling my eyes not at the huge variation of acts which people sometimes enjoy, but at the over representation and idealization of this certain mode of female sexuality. There are lots of unrealistic tropes we could laugh at that are unfair to both men and women.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by jeevey

I'm pretty sure this is why women like gay porn and read slash. Every possibility is absolutely reciprocal. There's no default power dynamic- they have to be decided on.

this i agree with. i find the power imbalance of hetero porn uncomfortable at times, as well as some depictions of hetero intercourse in media.

[Pearl]

Not to disrupt the debate here, but I just wanted to post this before it becomes old news:

The Futile Quest To End Rape Jokes On The Internet Continues - Forbes

Seriously, I just don't understand such vile hate some men guys have towards women. What is it about us that makes these shits hate us so much?

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Not to disrupt the debate here, but I just wanted to post this before it becomes old news:

The Futile Quest To End Rape Jokes On The Internet Continues - Forbes

Seriously, I just don't understand such vile hate some men guys have towards women. What is it about us that makes these shits hate us so much?

That is interesting. I just started following the whole wrap and tap thing a day or so ago.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Not to disrupt the debate here, but I just wanted to post this before it becomes old news:

The Futile Quest To End Rape Jokes On The Internet Continues - Forbes

Seriously, I just don't understand such vile hate some men guys have towards women. What is it about us that makes these shits hate us so much?

There are funny rape jokes. There are funny cancer jokes. There are funny priest jokes. There are funny blonde jokes. There are funny atheist jokes. There are funny Christian jokes. There are funny old people jokes.
None of these groups are special or immune to having jokes made about them. It doesn't mean all jokes about these things are funny; there has to be a joke. It also doesn't mean anyone has to be hated to have a joke made about them.

The mere act of trying to get any kind of joke censored is an act of superiority.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

There are funny rape jokes. There are funny cancer jokes. There are funny priest jokes. There are funny blonde jokes. There are funny atheist jokes. There are funny Christian jokes. There are funny old people jokes.
None of these groups are special or immune to having jokes made about them. It doesn't mean all jokes about these things are funny; there has to be a joke. It also doesn't mean anyone has to be hated to have a joke made about them.

The mere act of trying to get any kind of joke censored is an act of superiority.

I have to strongly disagree, Jive. I'm OK with a meme joking that women belong in the kitchen, but memes that show a woman with a black eye and the caption says she should've stayed in the kitchen, are not funny at all. Those are hateful and frightening to me, and plenty of other women. And I fail to see how rape can be humorous when "done correctly".

[deep]

until yesterday, I would have said 'rape' is never a joking matter
and then I started watching an old TV series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=qpivx9UTzt4

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I have to strongly disagree, Jive. I'm OK with a meme joking that women belong in the kitchen, but memes that show a woman with a black eye and the caption says she should've stayed in the kitchen, are not funny at all. Those are hateful and frightening to me, and plenty of other women. And I fail to see how rape can be humorous when "done correctly".

You have every right to not think they're funny. But your offense isn't special or more important than say, someone offended by a dead baby joke. It's not the fact that some people don't think they're funny that I have a problem with; it's the idea that, because those people don't think they're funny, they need to be censored. But rest assured, the vast majority of people making those jokes don't hate you. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people making those jokes also suck at making jokes

I'm getting some serious deja vu. We definitely all talked about this not too long ago. But hey, when has that ever stopped us before?

[Jive Turkey]

David Cross - Date Rape Tips - YouTube

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I have to strongly disagree, Jive. I'm OK with a meme joking that women belong in the kitchen, but memes that show a woman with a black eye and the caption says she should've stayed in the kitchen, are not funny at all. Those are hateful and frightening to me, and plenty of other women. And I fail to see how rape can be humorous when "done correctly".

Yeah. I've laughed at rape jokes before but the Facebook memes you're talking about go way over the line.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by cobl04

Yeah. I've laughed at rape jokes before but the Facebook memes you're talking about go way over the line.

Agreed. If there was, say, a photo of a black man gagged, bound and tied to the back of a truck with a caption like "Time to go for a walk," that wouldn't be a race joke, that would be hate speech. And those FB memes that are being targeted are not at all different.