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Old 07-15-2008, 06:03 AM   #41
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fuck me is that HAIR under that hat?!
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:17 PM   #42
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I think in his heart Bono's against these things still, but has silenced himself to get moneys for Africa. The problem is he went over the line in saying Blair and especially Bush, Karl Rove, Condie Rice and Cheney were well-intentioned toward the Middle East, when the record doesn't show that at all.


Fastforward to 2001, and Bono's all gung ho on the Tonight Show about how Afghanistan is the unequivocally right kind of war. What about all those people in Guantanamo and secret prisons, being tortured.


In all seriousness I would love for you to direct me to these interviews that you paraphrase from here if you have the info handy. I don't say quote because you didn't represent it as a quote so I am not assuming these were the exact words. I would love to read, or hear these for myself as they don't sound like any that I've heard or run accross before. I'm not disbelieving I just try to read all that I can and I don't think I've seen these. I quite understand if you don't have the info because I can't always reference specifics on what I've read.

As for several of the things you claim that Bono has not said one word about, I have heard plenty. I'd love to reel off a bunch of links for you but I can't off the top of my head and my schedule may not permit me to find examples. But understand this, there are always trade offs involved in life. Had Bono done what you keep saying he should have done all along then there is little likelyhood that anywhere near as much progress would have been made on debt cancellation and AIDS funding as has been. I am not taking Bono's word on this but rather the word of others involved in the process who said that without Bono the U.S. share of the debt cancellation would not have happened and without the U.S. moving other countries would not have done as much as the did. Millions of lives have been saved and something like 29 million children now go to school who couldn't before. No, Bono didn't do this by himself but he is much more than a figure head for a photo op and those involved say it wouldn't have happened without him. Sure it would have been better for his image to do what you say, but his impact on the world would have been negligible. If you think that Bono speaking out could have done anything to change what is happening in Iraq then I think you are overestimating his powers. He chose to work on an issue that he could actually have an impact with and his is willing to give credit where credit is due. In the interviews that I have seen the only time he says things close to what you are suggesting is when the reporters have tried to get him to jump on the bash Bush bandwagon. He refuses to do that not because he personally benefits but because he has to work with these people to advance the agendas for the poor. I fail to see how this is something to be look down at.

You say that he used to be against the IRA but again you miss the point, he was not against a united Ireland he was against violence as a solution and the IRA used violence. He condemned BOTH sides for the violence used. He did not say one was right and the other wrong so he was not taking sides. Which is the point I was making. In the 80's he both praised and condemned America. He actually did talk about how in some ways Reagan was good for America but there was another side of the coin as well. His main thrust has always been not to tell people what to believe or do but to get them to pay attention and then act however they see fit. You say Bono has not been critical of the Bush administrations yet I have heard him many times speak out about Abu Ghraib(sp?) and against torture most especially when he accepted the Liberty Medal last summer. Did you not hear that speech? I have seen him say that the only word for the way the Palestinians are being treated is Aparthied, and this was within the last two years. Bono simply refuses to join those who demonize people. I have never heard him say anything that could be construed as trying to stop the American people from questioning Bush's policies. As for saying someone was well-intentioned, that is not defending them because we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions. What I have heard is Bono saying about Blair was that he was sincere. He also said he thought Blair was sincerely wrong. It is too easy to throw around the term evil and say people are evil for certain things that they do. While Bono acknowledges that evil exists in the world and that he has had to deal with people who make his skin crawl he is not going to jeapordize his work for the dubious pleasure of calling these people out in public. There are plenty of other people willing to do those things but there wasn't anyone working on debt cancellation and AIDS that could bring the kind of attention to it that he could and his little black book of contacts was invaluable to the behind the scenes effort. He has also said that he would be more than willing to go back to the standing at the barricades kind of "cool" activism that he used to do if anyone will step up to the plate and take his place. He hasn't had any takers so far.

I don't expect to change your mind but I do think that you forget that Bono doesn't have to do any of this. Many people go through an activism phase in their twentys and then just drop it and get on with living. Especially to think of Bono as in any way cynical for the stirring up shit stuff seems way off the mark to me. One of the reasons that U2 has always gotten lots of press has been Bono's penchant for saying things that rile people up and start shit. The journalists love that about him and will give him coverage any chance they get because that's what the press lives for. Bono's ways of stirring things up are so far removed from the type of bashing that the Gallaghers engage in that it isn't even funny. And actually most of the over the top boasts that Bono has made in his career in order to stir things up he has ended up delivering on, so maybe he wasn't so boastful after all.

Have you read 'Celebrity Diplomacy' by Andrew F. Cooper? Maybe it would give you a better perspective on Bono's place in the political world and his effectiveness on his chosen issues. Also keep in mind that U2 have always been cautious as to what issues they get involved with or speak out on. Contrary to popular belief they don't get involved with everything they are approached with. They have to choose what to speak out on or not. I read an interview with Ian Flooks I believe who was an agent or promoter I think in the early 80's and even before War came out he said that U2 was getting an incredible number of requests for charity involvement. More than any other band he had worked with. He said they fielded something like 150 request a week for appearances or donations. So the idea of them always speaking out on everything without any reservations is wrong. They have always carefully weighed what impact they can expect to have on an issue before getting on board with it.

Dana
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:42 PM   #43
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i much prefer the Bono of today. he's vastly smarter and actually gets things done.

had i been an adult in the 1980s, i would have found him incredibly pompous.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:42 AM   #44
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haha, yeah...I love re discovering U2 songs or albums, gaining a new perspective, etc....it keeps me interested in songs even if I've heard them countless times...

And yeah I've watched the majority of U2 interviews on youtube...I just forget sometimes how enjoyable and interesting certain interviews are....I love when they get into the actual music...a good example is the Off the Record interview on HBO from 2006 I believe....they talk about how songs came about and the meaning of songs, songs like Bullet, Bad, Acrobat, and One, and it's just so lovely to watch and listen to.
Oh, man, I've been avoiding anything after Popmart because I hated what I'd seen on TV. I didn't realize the band were doing quality interviews anymore, in part because of the increasingly commercialized music TV "journalism". I'd better look out for that one! Thanks.
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fuck me is that HAIR under that hat?!
Sorry, what?


*I'll try to answer your post later, if that's okay, Rihannsu. I'm a bit tired at the moment.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:35 AM   #45
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I don't know. I used to get into the political views of bands and it would bother me when I disagreed with them (I usually do). I don't really care anymore what bands think. I don't see why I should let U2's beliefes bother me too much (as long as they're not Satanists or something). I couldn't really care less.
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:46 AM   #46
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In all seriousness I would love for you to direct me to these interviews that you paraphrase from here if you have the info handy.
You won't find them, because they don't exist, Muldfeld is just making up shit again.
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Old 07-18-2008, 08:34 AM   #47
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they should do some research on how it's possible the human brain makes up shit when someone's music doesn't appeal to you anymore

dana, great post as always
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:43 AM   #48
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In all seriousness I would love for you to direct me to these interviews that you paraphrase from here if you have the info handy. I don't say quote because you didn't represent it as a quote so I am not assuming these were the exact words. I would love to read, or hear these for myself as they don't sound like any that I've heard or run accross before. I'm not disbelieving I just try to read all that I can and I don't think I've seen these. I quite understand if you don't have the info because I can't always reference specifics on what I've read.

As for several of the things you claim that Bono has not said one word about, I have heard plenty. I'd love to reel off a bunch of links for you but I can't off the top of my head and my schedule may not permit me to find examples. But understand this, there are always trade offs involved in life. Had Bono done what you keep saying he should have done all along then there is little likelyhood that anywhere near as much progress would have been made on debt cancellation and AIDS funding as has been. I am not taking Bono's word on this but rather the word of others involved in the process who said that without Bono the U.S. share of the debt cancellation would not have happened and without the U.S. moving other countries would not have done as much as the did. Millions of lives have been saved and something like 29 million children now go to school who couldn't before. No, Bono didn't do this by himself but he is much more than a figure head for a photo op and those involved say it wouldn't have happened without him. Sure it would have been better for his image to do what you say, but his impact on the world would have been negligible. If you think that Bono speaking out could have done anything to change what is happening in Iraq then I think you are overestimating his powers. He chose to work on an issue that he could actually have an impact with and his is willing to give credit where credit is due. In the interviews that I have seen the only time he says things close to what you are suggesting is when the reporters have tried to get him to jump on the bash Bush bandwagon. He refuses to do that not because he personally benefits but because he has to work with these people to advance the agendas for the poor. I fail to see how this is something to be look down at.
I'll just tackle this aspect right now, rihannsu, because it's the easiest. I'm familiar with these arguments and even believed them for a time. I would even have stayed content had Bono not defended the Bush and Blair governments over Iraq and many other issues. If he'd only wanted to focus on Africa and not talked about anything else, I'd understand because I agree that Bono would have a greater impact on getting practical help for DATA goals by avoiding speaking out on other issues. I'd be fine with that.

The problem is Bono hasn't stopped there and has actually defended these people and made observations about the War on Terror and applauded America and Americans out of all proportion.

This is perhaps the article to which I was referring. When I have more time, I'll try to see if my sense of Bono's defense was taken from another piece, but this might be it:
Bono: The Rolling Stone Interview : Rolling Stone

Specifically this:

"Rolling Stone: But this administration destroyed that. I know that you have to deal with a lot of these people. . .

Bono: There was a plan there, you know. I think the president genuinely felt that if we could prove a model of democracy and broad prosperity in the Middle East, it might defuse the situation. I don't believe that, and in the capacity I had, I told them that.

Rolling Stone: You said that?

Bono: I told Paul Wolfowitz, all of them, to go ask the British army what it's like to stand on street corners and get shot at. Remember that during the British army's first years on the streets of Northern Ireland, they were applauded by the Catholic minority. Go look at that, and ask yourself how that all got turned around.

It was always going to go wrong. I remember in the first moments after "shock and awe," I was watching it at home with [my wife] Ali and I said, "These people have just hidden their guns in the basement, took off their uniforms and come out waving American flags. And they've been told to. They knew this was coming, and they know what they're doing."

Rolling Stone: So you mentioned this to Wolfowitz. Who else did you say this to? Did you say it to Tony Blair?

Bono: I said it in all my conversations. To Condi. To Karl Rove. I did not discuss it with President Bush. I try to stick to my pitch, and it's an abuse of my access for me to switch subjects. But I'm a lippy Irish rock star, and I'm more used to putting my foot in my mouth than my fist. So occasionally I'm just going to talk about it.

I want to be very, very clear, however: I understand and agree with the analysis of the problem. There is an imminent threat. It manifested itself on 9/11. It's real and grave. It is as serious a threat as Stalinism and National Socialism were. Let's not pretend it isn't.

I think people as reasoned as Tony Blair looked at the world and didn't want to be Neville Chamberlain, who came back from meeting with Hitler with a piece of paper saying "peace in our time," while Hitler was planning to cross the channel from France."

I'll deal more with your points after I've done some more school work. I have something very complex and long to say, and I've been thinking about it since I read your post a few days ago.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:20 AM   #49
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I'll just tackle this aspect right now, rihannsu, because it's the easiest. I'm familiar with these arguments and even believed them for a time. I would even have stayed content had Bono not defended the Bush and Blair governments over Iraq and many other issues. If he'd only wanted to focus on Africa and not talked about anything else, I'd understand because I agree that Bono would have a greater impact on getting practical help for DATA goals by avoiding speaking out on other issues. I'd be fine with that.

The problem is Bono hasn't stopped there and has actually defended these people and made observations about the War on Terror and applauded America and Americans out of all proportion.

This is perhaps the article to which I was referring. When I have more time, I'll try to see if my sense of Bono's defense was taken from another piece, but this might be it:
Bono: The Rolling Stone Interview : Rolling Stone

Specifically this:

"Rolling Stone: But this administration destroyed that. I know that you have to deal with a lot of these people. . .

Bono: There was a plan there, you know. I think the president genuinely felt that if we could prove a model of democracy and broad prosperity in the Middle East, it might defuse the situation. I don't believe that, and in the capacity I had, I told them that.

Rolling Stone: You said that?

Bono: I told Paul Wolfowitz, all of them, to go ask the British army what it's like to stand on street corners and get shot at. Remember that during the British army's first years on the streets of Northern Ireland, they were applauded by the Catholic minority. Go look at that, and ask yourself how that all got turned around.

It was always going to go wrong. I remember in the first moments after "shock and awe," I was watching it at home with [my wife] Ali and I said, "These people have just hidden their guns in the basement, took off their uniforms and come out waving American flags. And they've been told to. They knew this was coming, and they know what they're doing."

Rolling Stone: So you mentioned this to Wolfowitz. Who else did you say this to? Did you say it to Tony Blair?

Bono: I said it in all my conversations. To Condi. To Karl Rove. I did not discuss it with President Bush. I try to stick to my pitch, and it's an abuse of my access for me to switch subjects. But I'm a lippy Irish rock star, and I'm more used to putting my foot in my mouth than my fist. So occasionally I'm just going to talk about it.

I want to be very, very clear, however: I understand and agree with the analysis of the problem. There is an imminent threat. It manifested itself on 9/11. It's real and grave. It is as serious a threat as Stalinism and National Socialism were. Let's not pretend it isn't.

I think people as reasoned as Tony Blair looked at the world and didn't want to be Neville Chamberlain, who came back from meeting with Hitler with a piece of paper saying "peace in our time," while Hitler was planning to cross the channel from France."

I'll deal more with your points after I've done some more school work. I have something very complex and long to say, and I've been thinking about it since I read your post a few days ago.
You are interpreting this as a defense of Bush where I see none at all. He simply states the ideology behind the Bush Administrations plan for the Middle East which is something I have seen stated elsewhere many times. But he also clearly states that he disagrees with that ideology. Nowhere in this article does he defend Bush's ideology. Right in that very first sentence he simply outlines what he felt Bush's plan was and very clearly states that he thought it was wrong. How do you interpret this as defense? He may be stating his ideas on things that affected their decision but the majority of this article clearly shows that he disagreed with and talked about that disagreement very clearly with every one except for Bush himself. You have to remember that his meetings with Bush himself were extremely short and fairly scripted and it definitely could have been extremely detrimental for him to be critical. This was I think another article where Bono was being pushed to demonize Bush and he pushed back. Maybe that is what makes it seem to you like a defense but it is clearly not.

I appreciate that you are busy with other things and that's fine but if you have nothing clearer than this to support the idea of Bono defending Bush then I think your own opinions have colored your interpretation of Bono's words. This article in no way defends Bush at the most it offers a slight explanation of what they were trying to do but an explanation is not a defense. It is a common misconception that explaining someone's actions amount to excusing them but that is not the truth. Hitler's actions have been explained in great detail but that doesn't mean that they were right or that someone who talks about why Hitler did what he did is defending him. Good luck with your school work.

Dana
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:21 AM   #50
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Muldfeld, did you read what you posted? You just proved yourself wrong.
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:27 PM   #51
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Who cares what Bono thinks about the war? He's a rock star.
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:40 PM   #52
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apparently Muldfeld cares
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:27 PM   #53
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apparently Muldfeld cares


Hey Salome, I got an email about an invitation to friend me or something on Feedback? I don't know what that is but it won't work for me. I am not a premium member so it won't let me do whatever the link in the email tries to take me to do. Why the site allows you to send invites or pms to people who can't receive them I don't know but it is annoying that I can't respond to these things. Anyway just didn't want you to think I didn't want to respond.


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Old 07-21-2008, 02:30 PM   #54
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lol no probs
the best features of this site usually don't work
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