Danger Mouse being secretive about U2 production...

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
BVS said:
Where in the 80's and 90's do we have a guitar sound like Kite, In a Little While, Elevation, Vertigo, LAPOE, NLOTH, the beginning of Magnificent, White as Snow?
Click to expand...

Point well made, it's true he has introduced some sounds unheard of beforehand for u2 - e.g. nothing like vertigo had ever been made by them.

However, none of the songs you point out feature (imo) a truly innovative sound like what came in the 80's and 90's - they're pretty much just basic guitar sounds, albeit with some distortion in Elevation and Vertigo. Nothing ground breaking, certainly nothing that no artist had tried before u2 came along... no Mofo 'airplane' noises.
And personally i would only count the intro to magnificent if that sound was recurring throughout the song, and used by Edge predominantly. As it stands, it seems like something eno tacked on. Same for White as snow - he's just using a clean electric guitar. NLOTH is just heavy distortion, with the same riff as The Fly.

Furthermore, 2 tracks which were made singles - Magnificent and crazy tonight - both rely on the 'classic' edge sound. Get on your boots actually has some balls even if it does sound like a replica of vertigo - the use of the octave divider and cool percussion is actually quite interesting, and if they'd had the same attitude with the other 2 singles, they would have been much more exciting to me.

Point being, i don't buy what he's done in the last decade as being innovative at all - using a clean guitar or distortion is no different from what Jimmy Page did before him, hell i'm pretty certain Edge has used those two 'non-delay' sounds before - clean guitar on Angel of Harlem, for instance, and distortion on the Fly or Until the End of the World. Moment of Surrender, imo the best and most original song they've made since pop, hardly even features the Edge, and where it does, he's not using any cool effects.

I'm not saying i don't like u2 when Edge isn't being inventive -a lot of the tracks you listed i love. I just don't think using distortion on vertigo is 'new'. And i think personally he's offered very little, but only in terms of guitar sounds (for all i know he wrote all the songs), so i'm not saying he's being lazy, i just mean purely in terms of effects, i wish he was exploring like he used to, making u2 sound like nothing that came before them (including themselves).
 
BVS said:
Where in the 80's and 90's do we have a guitar sound like Kite, In a Little While, Elevation, Vertigo, LAPOE, NLOTH, the beginning of Magnificent, White as Snow?
Click to expand...

Also, i just realised, maybe you were referring to the musical composition/style of the songs (e.g. chord progressions/guitar melodies)? In which case, i agree with you, but it's not what i'm talking about - I'm just talking about sounds. Everything you listed has been done before.

Kite? slide guitar - mysterious ways.
In a little while/White as snow? Clean guitar - Angel of Harlem.
Elevation/vertigo/LAPOE? Distortion - Last night on Earth.
NLOTH? Heavy Distortion - The Fly (down to the same riff).

The intro to magnificent is cool, but way too underused - in the single version it doesn't even include those noises. And the synth noises have Eno written all over them.
 
But what you said was that he didn't explore any new sounds and depended on his trademark sound, which by your last two posts you admit was wrong.

So you admit he's explored new sounds, but they just weren't "innovative". :shrug: But some would argue, that his sound in the 80's wasn't really all that innovative either.

But don't you think it could have cut both ways too? There's only so much you can do with a guitar, and if you're trying to invent a new sound with every song you can lose sight, and become unrecognizeable.

Which goes back to my original point, are you this hard on all bands? If you are I can't imagine you like a lot of bands, because like I said most guitarist will have one or two sounds during their career if they're lucky.
 
^ more like WAS/IALW have clean guitar noises???

WAS has reverb that makes it sound like it should be in a spaghetti western, and IALW what the what? Nice balance with the sdistortion, when he hits the chord over the oooooo bits, there is a lovely distorted sound
 
Also, I am sick of the whole people saying that the fly and NLOTH have the same riff. They don't. No more than HMTMKMKM and SATS do. Actually the breakdown in both those is MUCH closer than NLOTH and the Fly.

Even so, Edge has ALWAYS used repetition, so you can't use that example to indicate a decline in his playing given that AIWIY, Bad and the first time are exactly the same chords throughout (although Bad isn't even complex enough to include the F#m in the pre-corus)
 
Complexity and variety do not equal great music. Edge is brilliant BECAUSE he can use an idea in multiple settings for multiple emotions. The man uses a guitar as a voice now more than ever, and better than anyone befroe him
 
Maybe he's still experimenting and inventing new shit, maybe he is, but if he is then it's definitely subtle. I don't feel like talking technicalities cuz we could be here all night arguing. I'll just say it "sounds" like Edge has been, how should i put this?....resting on his laurels lately.
 
Even if you were,
a) He has earned his laurels over 34 years, and
b) He is the same human being, of course there will be SOME repetition
 
Forgive me if I'm being repetitive, I haven't read the last 2 pages.

Edge's effects change, even if characteristics remain the same. I know some people thought NLOTH was a weak effort from the Edge, but I thought his work on the album really blended in (in a good way) with the vibe as a whole, on the sections of the album that really cohere that is. And his efforts on UC, WAS and MOS, though chiming, are really compelling against the varying sounds from the rest of the instruments. I also think Magnificent contains one of the most joyously infectious riffs ever. Also, though the track is very influenced by Daniel Lanois, Edge's sounds on COL do not resemble his tones on U2's darker tracks in their back catalog. And though the riff is akin to The Fly, Edge's use distortion on NLOTH (the song of course) is new for him.

Perhaps his guitar work on the album is not groundbreaking, but his compositions are solid, and as is the MO of U2, his efforts coalesce with the rest of the band very well on this album. That's perhaps what I admire about U2's music the most, how much they unite.
 
dan_smee said:
Also, I am sick of the whole people saying that the fly and NLOTH have the same riff. They don't. No more than HMTMKMKM and SATS do. Actually the breakdown in both those is MUCH closer than NLOTH and the Fly.

Even so, Edge has ALWAYS used repetition, so you can't use that example to indicate a decline in his playing given that AIWIY, Bad and the first time are exactly the same chords throughout (although Bad isn't even complex enough to include the F#m in the pre-corus)
Click to expand...

Three different sets of chords for those three songs actually.
So, no, not "exactly the same chords throughout".

While I can understand being reminded of live versions of Bad, which is played a half-step from its original album version, it is literally A and D. While AIWIY is a half-step from there at G# and C#. There is also a third chord in both of those songs that differentiates them further. G in Bad and F# in AIWIY, the first in the final chorus verse and the second, as you said, in the pre-chorus.
So...yeah.

But with that being understandable, you completely missed the mark on The First Time D# and G# and later Cm. Played a half step down, would be E, A and later C#m.

Here's my reasoning for this correction...I could address your assertion about being "sick of the whole people saying that the fly and NLOTH have the same riff. They don't." and assert that it is damn close. Giving technical details as I do so. Then you'd say what in retort? That they aren't "exactly" the same.

No they aren't. Just like Bad and AIWIY weren't written with the exact same chords throughout. That is fact. But in the spirit of the discussion, isn't it fair to say that there is some striking similarity here? I mean, Bad and AIWIY do use the A-D pattern one step apart and the same pattern live...just as much as saying, while the riff in The Fly has 9 notes and the riff in NLOTH has 8 notes and aren't technically the same, or that both songs are about 8bpm apart, there is some striking similarity in the notes played and the rhythmic manner in which they are played.
 
Inner El Guapo said:
Three different sets of chords for those three songs actually.
So, no, not "exactly the same chords throughout".

While I can understand being reminded of live versions of Bad, which is played a half-step from its original album version, it is literally A and D. While AIWIY is a half-step from there at G# and C#. There is also a third chord in both of those songs that differentiates them further. G in Bad and F# in AIWIY, the first in the final chorus verse and the second, as you said, in the pre-chorus.
So...yeah.

But with that being understandable, you completely missed the mark on The First Time D# and G# and later Cm. Played a half step down, would be E, A and later C#m.

Here's my reasoning for this correction...I could address your assertion about being "sick of the whole people saying that the fly and NLOTH have the same riff. They don't." and assert that it is damn close. Giving technical details as I do so. Then you'd say what in retort? That they aren't "exactly" the same.

No they aren't. Just like Bad and AIWIY weren't written with the exact same chords throughout. That is fact. But in the spirit of the discussion, isn't it fair to say that there is some striking similarity here? I mean, Bad and AIWIY do use the A-D pattern one step apart and the same pattern live...just as much as saying, while the riff in The Fly has 9 notes and the riff in NLOTH has 8 notes and aren't technically the same, or that both songs are about 8bpm apart, there is some striking similarity in the notes played and the rhythmic manner in which they are played.
Click to expand...

Apart from u mixing up the key in AIWIY (saying the f#, which is the actual chord structure, but citing the alternate tuning/key for the verses) the only difference is the way the guitar is tuned. Each song is played as a standard A, D figure if played in standard tuning. You are inadvertently proving my point though: edge makes songs so technically similar sound so different, and it is part of his genious
 
Forgot to highlight that I am talking verses only, because the fly/nloth arguement revolves entirely around the riff in the intro/verse figure
 
But yes, as you say in the last parra, there are striking similarities. I'm not saying there aren't. I'm saying people saying they are exactly the same are wrong, and the eras they love so much are guilty of similar
 
U2387 said:
I understand what you are saying, but I don't get how one decides whether its ok or whether its a fall-back sound.

Its obviously whether one likes Unknown Caller better than Walk On or Window In The Skies Better than Breathe.(which I don't find incredibly boring)

Overall, its not a case of putting I Will Follow in the same category as Walk On or any other song. We are talking about a very general guitar sound here that is the signature sound of the Edge. Songs can be very different and still have some variation of that sound.

You made yourself plenty clear, but what I am saying, along with Headache In A Suitcase and some other people, is that this has always been a part of U2's sound. The ringing, cascading, chiming Edge guitar.

Its present on every album, yes, even Achtung Baby.

It never, ever went away entirely.

Edge explored new things, many times building on that base signature sound(TUF, TJT, R&H) and a lot of times, challenging himself and developing new sounds(AB, Zooropa, Pop, parts of NLOTH).

You yourself pointed out Moment of Surrender and Cedars of Lebanon, there is certainly a willingness to diversify there. I'd even add White As Snow. Whatever effects he is using there, I haven't heard much from him in the past.

So maybe he is using the chimes too much for some people's liking, but to say they are "awful chimes" or that getting rid of them is essential for U2 to move forward, I'm still going to scratch my head.
Click to expand...

I think, after considering it a bit more, and reading yours and others' very well reasoned responses that the obvious thing to do here is to agree to disagree. The essence of my argument is that the chiming sound has been ratcheted up a little in the past decade in the absence of the ambition to write better songs. I don't dislike the essential sound of the Edge's guitar (if I disliked any of U2's signatures, I'd be in serious trouble as a fan since they have, as someone said, been around for 30 years!), I dislike the way that it has been used in what are, essentially, ordinary songs as what appears to me to be an effort to cover that ordinariness.

But I think that you hit the nail on the head though when you said 'I don't get how one decides whether its ok or whether its a fall-back sound' - all of this is subjective, and what sounds good to my ears may not be good to others' ears. (For example: I happen to love Bono's lyrics on NLOTH, including 'ATM Machine', 'Force Quit and Remove to Trash', etc.)

Anyway, the essential point in this whole discussion is that I - like all of us here - still love this band, and still want them to press on further. The only reason any of us are getting animated is because we believe they have another great record, or more great songs in them. And for me, that's being hidden by an inherent conservativeness that is inhibiting the way they work. NLOTH annoys me a lot because to my ears it's just a great record let down in parts by being too conservative in parts and settling for something that's a bit too ordinary. When I referred to 'Moment of Surrender' and 'Cedars of Lebanon' - and you're right to add 'White As Snow' to that list - it was because the sound of those records feels like that's what they're comfortable with at the moment. It's not forced like I feel the use of the chime has been in the past ten years.

----------------

On last thing, to get back to the original point of the thread. The one thing in all of this that puzzles me/worries me is the link between Danger Mouse being so silent and William commenting on being involved in the record is the possibility that we have another sorry that didn't work/change of producer story.

Still, it's all idle speculation until we actually get our hands on the record in 2011. (And it will be 2011!)
Click to expand...
 
PookaMacP said:
U2387 said:
I think, after considering it a bit more, and reading yours and others' very well reasoned responses that the obvious thing to do here is to agree to disagree. The essence of my argument is that the chiming sound has been ratcheted up a little in the past decade in the absence of the ambition to write better songs. I don't dislike the essential sound of the Edge's guitar (if I disliked any of U2's signatures, I'd be in serious trouble as a fan since they have, as someone said, been around for 30 years!), I dislike the way that it has been used in what are, essentially, ordinary songs as what appears to me to be an effort to cover that ordinariness.

But I think that you hit the nail on the head though when you said 'I don't get how one decides whether its ok or whether its a fall-back sound' - all of this is subjective, and what sounds good to my ears may not be good to others' ears. (For example: I happen to love Bono's lyrics on NLOTH, including 'ATM Machine', 'Force Quit and Remove to Trash', etc.)

Anyway, the essential point in this whole discussion is that I - like all of us here - still love this band, and still want them to press on further. The only reason any of us are getting animated is because we believe they have another great record, or more great songs in them. And for me, that's being hidden by an inherent conservativeness that is inhibiting the way they work. NLOTH annoys me a lot because to my ears it's just a great record let down in parts by being too conservative in parts and settling for something that's a bit too ordinary. When I referred to 'Moment of Surrender' and 'Cedars of Lebanon' - and you're right to add 'White As Snow' to that list - it was because the sound of those records feels like that's what they're comfortable with at the moment. It's not forced like I feel the use of the chime has been in the past ten years.

----------------

On last thing, to get back to the original point of the thread. The one thing in all of this that puzzles me/worries me is the link between Danger Mouse being so silent and William commenting on being involved in the record is the possibility that we have another sorry that didn't work/change of producer story.

Still, it's all idle speculation until we actually get our hands on the record in 2011. (And it will be 2011!)
Click to expand...

Sure, agree to disagree in some parts!

However, now that we've discussed some more, I don't think we are that far apart!

2 things:

1.)I really love the lyrics on NLOTH as well. I thought they were a step up from the last 2 albums in general. I could fill a book with a rant against people who have something against the "atm machine" line in MOS. Or anything in MOS really!

2.)This is honestly one of the best posts I've read here in a while. What I underlined/bolded especially, really hit the nail on the head:up: Sometimes we forget exactly why we care enough to discuss so vigorously here. Its because we all ultimately know very well what U2 are capable of!

--------------------------------------

As for DM and Will I Am, I don't buy the whole "DM is God argument" that I feel we've been getting here a lot, but I still am looking forward to U2 working with him.

I am hoping that maybe with Bono/Paul McG's statements that the DM material is close to done that everyone involved has been told to shut up and let whatever publicity or stealth release campaign do its job when the time comes.

I think some evidence points to a stealth release this time given the relatively lackluster sales of the heavily promoted NLOTH and the concerns over possible U2 fatigue/backlash.

That scenario would obviously leave the Will I Am stuff for later.

Another possibility of course is that DM is a lot more of a serious and professional producer(we know this) than Will and is more interested in results and letting the music speak than he is in talking to the press.

Wild speculation, all, as you say!
Click to expand...
 
BVS said:
But what you said was that he didn't explore any new sounds and depended on his trademark sound, which by your last two posts you admit was wrong.

So you admit he's explored new sounds, but they just weren't "innovative". :shrug: But some would argue, that his sound in the 80's wasn't really all that innovative either.

But don't you think it could have cut both ways too? There's only so much you can do with a guitar, and if you're trying to invent a new sound with every song you can lose sight, and become unrecognizeable.

Which goes back to my original point, are you this hard on all bands? If you are I can't imagine you like a lot of bands, because like I said most guitarist will have one or two sounds during their career if they're lucky.
Click to expand...

Ok, i'll admit i was wrong if i came across as saying he used no sounds that were new to u2 - however, i don't think using distortion e.g. on vertigo is truly exploring a 'new sound'. Then you might as well say any rock star who records their first album with just plain distortion is coming up with a new sound, just because they personally never used it before. (also, for the record, i believe he did rely on his trademark sound recently - maybe not on a non-single like NLOTH or IALW, but definitely on the singles Magnificent and Crazy tonight. So i don't think i was wrong, unless perhaps we both see 'rely' as going to different extents, in which case it's not a matter of right or wrong, just opinion.)

Let's just agree to disagree, because i get the impression you're happy with Edge exploring sounds he himself never used... which is fair enough, and i can't disagree with your opinion - it just means we have different interpretations of 'innovative'. To me, innovative isn't just doing something u2 haven't done before, it's doing something no one's done before (however, i will admit having a double standard here as i'd love to hear a club/electronic u2 album, even if in terms of effects it wasn't that creative).
When i hear Stand up Comedy, i don't hear innovation (even if it's a new style for the band), i hear u2 using a led Zeppelin influence, just like when i first heard coldplay using delay, i didn't think it was original or explorative, i thought it was a new band influenced by u2. Some might argue Edge's sound in the 80's wasn't innovative, but i wouldn't agree with anyone saying the 'Streets' noise had been done before (although i'm willing to be proved wrong).

I also think it's pessimistic to say there's only so much you can do with a guitar - imagine if Edge had thought that in the 80's, and u2 just became a led zep rip off, or if u2 had worried about not being recognisable and scrapped achtung baby :huh: I think the power is in every guitarist to do something new, even if that sounds cheesy!

I'm not trying to be hard on Edge or u2, i'm sorry if i came across that way - let me state now that u2 is my favourite band, Edge is my favourite guitarist, i've loved their recent work and i think Edge is capable of creating beautiful work even without exploring effects. Which brings me back to MY original point - Edge's effects aren't the only reason i like u2, they're just one aspect. However, they are an important one to me, and i've loved his exploration, and simply wish he would do some more. I don't think it's unfair to want some more of that considering (IMO) he defined himself through his evolving sound, and considering i wouldn't stop liking the band if they didn't explore. I just happen to think they can do better.
My original response was to people who said they couldn't understand why people like me are unsatisfied with Edge using his trademark 'chime' sound: it's because we don't consider the 'chime' to be is trademark, but instead one stage in his evolving sound. It's not even a big deal, i still love u2 more than anything regardless!
 
Getting back on topic, u2387, i agree with you on/hope it's the case that the Dangermouse work is done, and they're just being less public about it.
Maybe, as you suggest, they think that NLOTH partly failed because of the massive marketing strategy which... hmmm... made people bored of the band before the album even came out, perhaps? Alternatively, maybe in retrospect they regret hailing NLOTH as the next Achtung baby, and felt people judged it as an album that failed to be experimental, as opposed to just an album with good tunes on it. If they just release danger mouse songs, there won't be as much of an unreasonably high expectation, and if the songs are good, they can speak for themselves!
Plus, wouldn't DM just say if he had been 'fired' as with Rick Rubin?
 
JamietheEdgefan said:
Let's just agree to disagree, because i get the impression you're happy with Edge exploring sounds he himself never used... which is fair enough, and i can't disagree with your opinion - it just means we have different interpretations of 'innovative'. To me, innovative isn't just doing something u2 haven't done before, it's doing something no one's done before
Click to expand...
I think you're misunderstanding me. Exploring new sounds and being innovative are not the same thing, but I wasn't using the two interchangeable, you did that several posts back and I was trying to point that out to you.

I keep hearing you and others say he isn't exploring new sounds, but that's just flat out false. Now one can argue if he's being innovative or not and that's fine... but these are two different things(that often get confused in here).

JamietheEdgefan said:
I also think it's pessimistic to say there's only so much you can do with a guitar - imagine if Edge had thought that in the 80's, and u2 just became a led zep rip off, or if u2 had worried about not being recognisable and scrapped achtung baby :huh: I think the power is in every guitarist to do something new, even if that sounds cheesy!
Click to expand...
Once again, not what I'm saying. This argument has many different facets, and I don't have the time to get into them all for I could argue that Edge's guitar sounds on AB weren't all that truly innovative... But my point is that there is a point when "innovativeness" or "experimentation" takes over and the end result really isn't that great. For example I love Kid A but I think some of Radioheads work after that became cold with no human connection.

Edge has experimented throughout his career, some albums more than others, but anyone who says he's resting on his laurels doesn't understand music and is just making a lazy argument.

Edge is approaching the guitar this decade in a little bit more of a traditional manner which I think pisses some people off, but honestly it's not something he's done a lot of, and he deserves the right to want to do that. Rattle and Hum was a bit like that, they were discovering blues, country and the roots of rock and roll, which is kind of odd to do so 10 years into your career but it work because it changed their approach. Edge hadn't written any straight forward power chord riffs before, something once again most bands did early in their careers... so we got their version of that in Vertigo, just like we got their version of blues and soul.

So I'll ask again because no one has EVER answered this question before:

What guitarist are you listening to that is constantly innovating and never plays with a certain sound for awhile or rediscovering older influences? Which guitarist has had more re-inventions than Edge?

I'm always looking for new music to listen to...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

MrsSpringsteen
Gilead States Of America
Replies
16
Views
916
MrsSpringsteen
MrsSpringsteen
cobl04
Kiss the Future documentary
Replies
11
Views
3K
MrsSpringsteen
MrsSpringsteen
MrsSpringsteen
Billie Eilish Thought U2 Was From Scranton
Replies
1
Views
735
lazarus
lazarus
N
NBA 2023-24 Thread
12 13 14
Replies
401
Views
11K
Headache in a Suitcase
Headache in a Suitcase
Headache in a Suitcase
  • Sticky
U2 in Vegas - Tips for booking hotels, flights and other Vegasy type things.
20 21 22
Replies
642
Views
33K
Headache in a Suitcase
Headache in a Suitcase

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom