The Evolution of U2's Creative Process
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BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Flying FuManchu
New Yorker
Tedder's hands are all over the album especially on forum favorites SOL and Red Flag Day.
Rachel D.
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
So with that line of thinking, NLOTH is higher quality than SOE...? I don’t think so.
And there is nothing flimsy, hollow, or teeny pop about SOE, unless you think songs about death and drowning refugees are hollow and flimsy? Last time I checked, that’s not what the kids are into these days.
Quote:
"Let me ask you about "Summer of Love," which is about Syria and the refugees. Where did that song come from, musically?
There is a guy working with Ryan Tedder, who wrote a beautiful little guitar part. And this was Edge going through his little excitement, saying, "Oh, if you want something, you just ask for it. Like hip-hop, sample it. Sample it, or replay it." It was a great freedom for him. So that was part of the spirit of this record too. It was like, "Let's look in places you don't normally look." And so we got this beautiful mood, and we have this beautiful melodic sort of almost ode to the Beach Boys and the Mamas and the Papas, and then found the twist. And the twist is the west coast of Syria. And not the west coast of Ireland or California, as a lot of people have reviewed it as."
So this is what I think has changed recently, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
I know that since the dawn of music, artists have been inspired by others, borrowed from others, stole from others, sampled from others, consciously or unconsiously, but this just sounds, I don't know.
So on SOE we have it w/Haim (who gets songwriting credit), and Tedder/One Republic (who doesn't get somgwriting credit), both great songs IMO, but centered around others music.
This qoute kinda sounds to me like, "Edge feels such a freedom, if he can't come up with an idea himself or is too lazy too, he'll just use someone else's!" Problem solved. And they sound pretty pumped about doing this in the future.
There's just something about it.....I don't know.......
"Let me ask you about "Summer of Love," which is about Syria and the refugees. Where did that song come from, musically?
There is a guy working with Ryan Tedder, who wrote a beautiful little guitar part. And this was Edge going through his little excitement, saying, "Oh, if you want something, you just ask for it. Like hip-hop, sample it. Sample it, or replay it." It was a great freedom for him. So that was part of the spirit of this record too. It was like, "Let's look in places you don't normally look." And so we got this beautiful mood, and we have this beautiful melodic sort of almost ode to the Beach Boys and the Mamas and the Papas, and then found the twist. And the twist is the west coast of Syria. And not the west coast of Ireland or California, as a lot of people have reviewed it as."
So this is what I think has changed recently, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
I know that since the dawn of music, artists have been inspired by others, borrowed from others, stole from others, sampled from others, consciously or unconsiously, but this just sounds, I don't know.
So on SOE we have it w/Haim (who gets songwriting credit), and Tedder/One Republic (who doesn't get somgwriting credit), both great songs IMO, but centered around others music.
This qoute kinda sounds to me like, "Edge feels such a freedom, if he can't come up with an idea himself or is too lazy too, he'll just use someone else's!" Problem solved. And they sound pretty pumped about doing this in the future.
There's just something about it.....I don't know.......
trevgreg
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I was reading an interview with Elvis Costello today where he was talking about some acting roles he had, and one of the answers he gave alluded to a character in Pulp Fiction mimicking a character from another movie he was in...
https://www.avclub.com/elvis-costello-on-making-a-western-with-courtney-love-a-1821422126
I mean, he totally just went CLIP! CLIP! and put it in there. It’s totally the blueprint! Not that Samuel L. couldn’t have done the role anyway, but the whole thing, it’s too inside. It’s too like it. The same way he looks, the same tastes, the same kind of menacing way. It’s still great, though. It’s like jazz. It’s like a great jazz player playing a whole solo, and then they suddenly play some quotation from another song. That’s how art works.
A little off point, but yeah, something like that.
https://www.avclub.com/elvis-costello-on-making-a-western-with-courtney-love-a-1821422126
I mean, he totally just went CLIP! CLIP! and put it in there. It’s totally the blueprint! Not that Samuel L. couldn’t have done the role anyway, but the whole thing, it’s too inside. It’s too like it. The same way he looks, the same tastes, the same kind of menacing way. It’s still great, though. It’s like jazz. It’s like a great jazz player playing a whole solo, and then they suddenly play some quotation from another song. That’s how art works.
A little off point, but yeah, something like that.
Iggy Fizz
War Child
yes, it just feels like on these last 2 albums and especially on SOE they have gone too far in letting a huge cast of characters come up with their sound. It's as if they're commissioning a piece of art, versus being the artist...
and the argument that I am sure we will see here shortly that 'well they always did this with Eno and Lanois so nothing has changed' is not only lazy, it is not a valid reference point to what is going on now.
Hollow Island
New Yorker
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i doubt that the "cast of characters" on SOI/SOE contributed more to U2's sound and songs than Eno & Lanois did. They contributed lyrics, riffs, chord progressions, effects, arrangements, and played on the albums. there's nothing new to U2 using ideas from others.
Iggy Fizz
War Child
thank you, this is the exact empty argument I just predicted, and you delivered it even earlier than anticipated.
It's not lazy, it's reality.
The question is whether people are either in denial about this when it comes to their greater work, or just didn't realize.
Iggy Fizz
War Child
Headache - not so sure about that. to me there is a huge difference in working in very close collaboration with 1-2 producers who you consider a part of your extended creative team which Edge has always described it as, versus hiring a large number of producers/songwriters to essentially pitch a huge number of songs/arrangements/etc and then cobble them together from the bits you like the best.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
How is it any different than Eno coming in with a keyboard riff or string loop and having the band build around it?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
So the difference is the number of people? Even though it’s the same exact approach, you’re bothered by it being more than two?
So two = cool
More than two = outsourcing?
Got it
trevgreg
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I can't explain the difference to you if you don't get the difference.
Read the quote again, and hear Bono's excitement, and referring to Edge's excitement, that they have discovered a "new source" for new music, "sampling or replaying" .
That's quite a different twist in thinking than the Eno/Lanois situation
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
So the difference is Edge’s excitement? Ok
They’ve been sampling, it’s nothing new. There is absolutely nothing new in this process.
They sampled on Pop in both the traditional manner of using the original recording and in replaying. They’ve built songs around pieces Eno has brought in for decades, that’s how Eno works with most of his artists. There’s a reason Winter and Coldplay’s Viva have those string loops, that was what Eno was into at the time.
The only thing that is new about this is the person, Tedder, that is why you’re bothered by this.
Wrong again, BVS. The difference is they are actively seeking out new music from other artists to incorporate into their own, and say that it's a "NEW way for them to create new music". Their words, not mine. I don't care if it's Ryan Tedder, Haim, or whoever, THEY say it's a new creative well for them to draw from, using other people's music to build their own off of.
I'm sorry this bothers you so much
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
It bothers me because it’s factually incorrect.
Have you ever listened to Pop? They were actively seeking music from other artists to incorporate into their own.
When Eno brought them a riff, they were incorporating new music.
I’m not going to get hung up on a Bonoism. Anyone who knows this band knows this is how it’s always been. Why are you getting so hung up on this quote? Do you deny that they’ve sampled in the past? Do you deny Eno has brought in music for them to build upon?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
:facepalm: no, it doesn’t
Once again:
1. Do you deny they’ve sampled?
2. Do you deny that Eno has brought in pieces for them to build on?
Answer those honestly. Stop getting hung up on what Bono said, it’s Bono being Bono.
Ok BVS, I will play along. As I stated, of course they have sampled, IMO "Pop" is a masterpiece.
Of course Eno has brought pieces in, and sometimes they gave him credit, sometimes not.
But Bono AND Edge has said that they view "replaying a riff, or sourcing material from someone " as a NEW well to draw from creatively. Edge said it in an interview about the Haim issue I believe.
They have not said this before.
Two weeks ago BVS, you were adamant that I was a "troll" because I would dare say that Summer of Love started out as a One Republic song, which has proven to be true.
Now you're upset because I won't agree with you that the band is increasing it's use of other people's material to craft their own. I NEVER said they didn't sample , never said they didn't get source material from Eno. I'm sure you'll want to get the last word so be my guest, but I just found it interesting, and as I said earlier, I just don't know how I feel about it.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
But they’ve done it before, so it really isn’t new. Maybe it’s something that feels new again, and they’ll find new inspiration in it.
Not why I called you a troll. And we really don’t know how far along it went to becoming an OR song, the version we heard in that video could have already been something they were working on with U2, hence why he has to be telling which songs are OR songs in the video. We just don’t know.
You kept getting stuck on saying it was something new, and that’s simply not true. And to say it’s increasing isn’t true. Is it more than Bomb or SOI? Yes. More than Pop or NLOTH? No.
Now I will say with SOL, what’s his name should have gotten a writing credit. The riff is defining part of the song, and it’s much more than the loosely defined ‘wrote the melody line for a chorus’.
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kiwilad
Refugee
I have an issue with this.
Yes, BVS, U2 have always used producers to add creatively to the music. Even Lillywhite did this on Boy, completely reworking Shadows from a jaunty number and live staple to an atmospheric arrangement never played live.
Eno brought loops. Danny brought shitloads. Pop had samples. Etc etc.
My issue here is one of scale. The cool percussive loop that led to Moments of Surrender is Eno. But that isn't the defining musical feature of the song.
I believe the slide guitar intro to Running to Standstill is Lanois. But it is just an intro and isn't the takeaway musical hook of the song.
With Summer of Love, after a long fucking time, they finally had a riff that was the musical hook of the whole song, and one cool enough that I can easily imagine young guitarists sitting around school/campus at lunchtime trying to play it. Assuming they ever heard it of course.
It's a cool riff. It is played throughout the song. It is the defining musical feature/motif of the song.
And the liner notes say Music: U2.
And that riff is not a piece of U2 music.
That's really disappointing to me.
So give it up with this whole equivalency argument. Equivalency would be other U2 songs that depend on one standout awesome riff as the musical hook. Streets, Pride, Sunday, The Fly etc etc. Not samples or keyboard loops or acknowledged usage ie Haim.
This is shitty.
Yes, BVS, U2 have always used producers to add creatively to the music. Even Lillywhite did this on Boy, completely reworking Shadows from a jaunty number and live staple to an atmospheric arrangement never played live.
Eno brought loops. Danny brought shitloads. Pop had samples. Etc etc.
My issue here is one of scale. The cool percussive loop that led to Moments of Surrender is Eno. But that isn't the defining musical feature of the song.
I believe the slide guitar intro to Running to Standstill is Lanois. But it is just an intro and isn't the takeaway musical hook of the song.
With Summer of Love, after a long fucking time, they finally had a riff that was the musical hook of the whole song, and one cool enough that I can easily imagine young guitarists sitting around school/campus at lunchtime trying to play it. Assuming they ever heard it of course.
It's a cool riff. It is played throughout the song. It is the defining musical feature/motif of the song.
And the liner notes say Music: U2.
And that riff is not a piece of U2 music.
That's really disappointing to me.
So give it up with this whole equivalency argument. Equivalency would be other U2 songs that depend on one standout awesome riff as the musical hook. Streets, Pride, Sunday, The Fly etc etc. Not samples or keyboard loops or acknowledged usage ie Haim.
This is shitty.
trevgreg
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I don’t disagree with a lot of this. But in terms of the “scale” argument, I’d say that there’s really no way of knowing who contributed what unless you’re physically in the room with these people. Eno and/or Lanois felt strongly enough about their ATYCLB contributions that it led to a minor rift when people weren’t credited for certain things. For that reason, I'd think it might not be wise to assume that all Eno did was contribute “loops” or that any other ideas he pushed were fairly minimal. That goes for a lot of producers out there anyway. I'm sure some will just hit record and let the band figure it out (although that's probably rare), and some will give their two cents to some extent or be involved more. Those two would definitely be in the later group.
Of course, we can go off interviews and figure that Edge wrote the primary thing for Streets (the riff). Or that stuff like the Summer of Love riff and the melody line for Every Breaking Wave were contributed by other people. But without first-hand knowledge, you can't really measure these things to percentages or know for a fact this person wrote or contributed that.
That being said, I would probably give the other guys writing credits if they contributed a melody line, a lyric or a riff. Those tend to be the typical standards for a writing credit anyway. But unless I'm the other guy's lawyer and no sort of financial compensation was given to the contributing person (which I highly doubt), I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it as a fan.
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BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Did you not read my whole post? I said in the case of SOL he should have got a writing credit.
Rachel D.
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
This is what bothers me. The guitar part in this song is so different from what U2 usually does, it’s so new and exciting, I really like it!
But they didn’t even come up with it. Just knowing that kinda takes the wind out of the sails a little. I’m sure it won’t bother me anymore after a while, and there are plenty of other great things on the album that U2 actually composed themselves, but the thing I was initially impressed with the most isn’t even U2 music. That’s a little disappointing.
For a lot of people here this has been like finding out pro wrestling is scripted.
kiwilad
Refugee
Gosh yes. That's how it is. Cause I was that darn naive and plain old silly I thought Edge still wrote the guitar parts attributed to U2.
Unless you're not being as condescending as you appear and you actually never listened to U2-composed songs assuming Edge wrote his own riffs...
Seriously though, I personally am the sort of U2 fan who would rather see them go into the studio for 2 weeks and release whatever they come up with, as opposed to their seemingly well-intentioned idea that they must release the 'best' album possible, no matter the process involved.
I just want to hear those 4 men make music.
Or at least be more honest about their current creative process in the credits.
Are you bothered that Brian Eno didn't get a writing credit on Streets?
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