US Politics XXXVIII: "Patriots" vs Reality

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But we are seriously heading towards a very very dark place. When you cannot debate ideas, even bad ones, violence is always the next step.

Agree with you BEAL, it hasn't looked pretty for many years. 'Omnibus' legislation year after year after year until it became our standard is a huge failure of our government.

Which ideas aren't being debated, though? We aren't exactly the UK Parliament, but we're still pretty good at debate :lol:
 
Also, back to the media from 2015-2020. You and one other poster still around here were two of the most vocal proponents of hoaxes and hysteria.

Was our media healthy in those years?
 
Jesus Christ Russia was not a hoax. You just fell for the BS defense they gave. Eve the Mueller Report pretty much spelled it out of you actually read it and not just take Bill Barr and Hannity's word for it.

Which is a perfect example of why our media isn't healthy. The media you watch has hoodwinked you, just like your party.

Was there hysteria that blew certain storylines out of proportion? Absolutely.

However - Russia did interfere in our election, they did so on behalf of the Trump campaign, Trump's campaign manager gave them the data to do it, and the Trump campaign actively tried to obstruct the investigation.

The "totally exonerating" Mueller Report says all of that.

It also says that Cohen spoke with a Russian businessperson about compromising video tapes 2 months before the Steele Dossier ever became public, but could not verify what the tapes contained. It's all in there.
 
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Jesus Christ Russia was not a hoax. You just fell for the BS defense they gave. Eve the Mueller Report pretty much spelled it out of you actually read it and not just take Bill Barr and Hannity's word for it.

Which is a perfect example of why our media isn't healthy. The media you watch has hoodwinked you, just like your party.

Was there hysteria that blew certain storylines out of proportion? Absolutely.

However - Russia did interfere in our election, they did so on behalf of the Trump campaign, Trump's campaign manager gave them the data to do it, and the Trump campaign actively tried to obstruct the investigation.

The "totally exonerating" Mueller Report says all of that.

It also says that Cohen spoke with a Russian businessperson about compromising video tapes 2 months before the Steele Dossier ever became public, but could not verify what the tapes contained. It's all in there.

And if Bluer White didn't realize that, I guess that answers his question. The media wasn't healthy enough in those years either because he's obviously not well informed.
 
And if Bluer White didn't realize that, I guess that answers his question. The media wasn't healthy enough in those years either because he's obviously not well informed.


he was trolling with his trademark passive-aggressive disingenuousness. he knows very well Russia did everything it could to help elect Trump, the campaign warmly welcomed that assistance ("Russia, if you're listening") and that Trump continues to put Putin first in everything he says and does.

the hysteria that was manufactured, however, were the people screaming OMG YOU BELIEVED EVERYTHING IN THE STEELE DOSSIER AND THAT WASN'T TRUE when, literally, everyone who knew anything about the Steele Dossier knew that it was never facts but *confirmed rumors* about Trump. so that was the move, which certainly seemed to fool some folks who are still active in this forum. further, "collusion" was always a bogus, rigged standard that framed the findings in favor of Trump.

WASHINGTON — A sprawling report released Tuesday by a Republican-controlled Senate panel that spent three years investigating Russia’s interference in the 2016 election laid out an extensive web of contacts between Trump campaign advisers and Kremlin officials and other Russians, including at least one intelligence officer and others tied to the country’s spy services.

The report by the Senate Intelligence Committee, totaling nearly 1,000 pages, drew to a close one of the highest-profile congressional investigations in recent memory and could be the last word from an official government inquiry about the expansive Russian campaign to sabotage the 2016 election.

It provided a bipartisan Senate imprimatur for an extraordinary set of facts: The Russian government disrupted an American election to help Mr. Trump become president, Russian intelligence services viewed members of the Trump campaign as easily manipulated, and some of Mr. Trump’s advisers were eager for the help from an American adversary.

The report portrayed a Trump campaign that was stocked with businessmen with no government experience, advisers working at the fringes of the foreign policy establishment and other friends and associates Mr. Trump had accumulated over the years. Campaign figures, the report said, “presented attractive targets for foreign influence, creating notable counterintelligence vulnerabilities.”

Like the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, who released his findings in April 2019, the Senate report did not conclude that the Trump campaign engaged in a coordinated conspiracy with the Russian government — a fact that Republicans seized on to argue that there was “no collusion.”

But the report showed extensive evidence of contacts between Trump campaign advisers and people tied to the Kremlin — including a longstanding associate of the onetime Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, Konstantin V. Kilimnik, whom the report identified as a “Russian intelligence officer.”

The Senate report was the first time the government has identified Mr. Kilimnik as an intelligence officer — Mr. Mueller’s report had labeled him as someone with ties to Russian intelligence. Most of the details about his intelligence background were blacked out in the Senate report.

Mr. Manafort’s willingness to share information with Mr. Kilimnik and others affiliated with the Russian intelligence services “represented a grave counterintelligence threat,” the report said.

It also included a potentially explosive detail: that investigators had uncovered information possibly tying Mr. Kilimnik to Russia’s major election interference operations, conducted by the intelligence service known as the G.R.U.

Democrats highlighted Mr. Kilimnik’s potential ties to the interference operations in their own appendix to the report, noting that Mr. Manafort discussed campaign strategy and shared internal campaign polling data with the Russian and later lied to federal investigators about his actions.

“This is what collusion looks like,” Democrats wrote.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/senate-intelligence-russian-interference-report.html



read for yourself:

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume1.pdf
 
he was trolling with his trademark passive-aggressive disingenuousness.

Not approving of a comment doesn't equal trolling, sorry. I was responding to Beal's critique of the media and remembering what went on in the media and by extension here for literally years in the prior administration. And yes, you and Beal were the standout 'Russia Russia Russia' commenters during those years.
 
Russia did interfere.

Mueller Report documented it when it was fully analyzed by someone other than Barr. Obstruction of Justice charges were recommended by the report, but never followed up. Mueller appeared to do everything to avoid politics. And Trump was not directly charged mostly due to some note (not law) about not charging a sitting President.

The senate also agreed on Russian interference.

Did Russia hack into voting machines and change votes ? No, or at least there’s no strong evidence. But they did run a great coordination with Trump campaign to thread the needle.

At this point it doesn’t even matter anymore.

The biggest issue is the fact that a 4x indicted 91 charged Trump is still the front runner of a major political party. And that party has sunk so low that it doesn’t believe in democracy anymore, and each day slides more and more into authoritarian violent means to hold onto power.
 
The biggest issue is the fact that a 4x indicted 91 charged Trump is still the front runner of a major political party. And that party has sunk so low that it doesn’t believe in democracy anymore, and each day slides more and more into authoritarian violent means to hold onto power.

And the other biggest issue is that the response to these FACTS is and always will be deflection and denial and dead silence.

That's how democracy dies and authoritarianism begins, but nah let's just forget about all of that.
 
Not approving of a comment doesn't equal trolling, sorry. I was responding to Beal's critique of the media and remembering what went on in the media and by extension here for literally years in the prior administration. And yes, you and Beal were the standout 'Russia Russia Russia' commenters during those years.

And you're still calling it a hoax all these years later.
 
Not approving of a comment doesn't equal trolling, sorry. I was responding to Beal's critique of the media and remembering what went on in the media and by extension here for literally years in the prior administration. And yes, you and Beal were the standout 'Russia Russia Russia' commenters during those years.

Americans complaining about a foreign country interfering in our election (and a candidate willingly accepting help from that nation) shouldn't be spoken of as an inconvenience.
 
Not approving of a comment doesn't equal trolling, sorry. I was responding to Beal's critique of the media and remembering what went on in the media and by extension here for literally years in the prior administration. And yes, you and Beal were the standout 'Russia Russia Russia' commenters during those years.


so why not say my name? and why not engage with the substance rather than a handwaving dismissal when repeatedly presented with ample evidence of the Trump campaign and the Russian government? who are you, Bill Barr?

anyway, more Russia, Russia, Russia that is true, true ture:


A sitting Ukrainian lawmaker who helped Rudy Giuliani smear Joe Biden during the 2020 US presidential campaign has been jailed on suspicion of treason, Ukraine’s State Bureau of Investigation announced Tuesday, in a statement accusing him of carrying out a Russian disinformation operation.

The statement did not name the lawmaker, but a source with the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) confirmed it was investigating Member of Parliament Oleksandr Dubinsky on suspicion of treason. The statement said the lawmaker “carried out information-subversive activities in favor of the Russian Federation” intended to destabilize and discredit Ukraine.

The SBU has also implicated two former Ukrainian officials in the pro-Russia scheme: ex-lawmaker Andrii Derkach and former prosecutor Kostiantyn Kulyk, who coordinated closely with Giuliani and other allies of former President Donald Trump to peddle false information about Biden and his family’s dealings in Ukraine during the 2020 campaign.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/16/euro...ion-biden-russia-interference-intl/index.html
 
i miss the app as much as anyone, but having to log on via laptop and then post articles and links like it's 2006 in here is kind of giving me nostalgic feels.
 
so why not say my name? and why not engage with the substance rather than a handwaving dismissal when repeatedly presented with ample evidence of the Trump campaign and the Russian government? who are you, Bill Barr?

Only if you're Adam Schiff :wink:

Seriously, though, I'm not dismissing Russian meddling in our elections. No issues with the NYT snippet you posted.
 
Looking like Trump's Judge Cannon will have successfully pushed the Classified Docs case well past November 2024.

I do kinda question if Jack knew that this was possible when the case was set for FL, and specifically knowing it would fall within her court.

Willis in GA has said she thinks the trial will start fall of 2024.

So really you've got the DC case with the best chance of Trump facing any sort of verdict before 2024.
 
Looking like Trump's Judge Cannon will have successfully pushed the Classified Docs case well past November 2024.

I do kinda question if Jack knew that this was possible when the case was set for FL, and specifically knowing it would fall within her court.

Willis in GA has said she thinks the trial will start fall of 2024.

So really you've got the DC case with the best chance of Trump facing any sort of verdict before 2024.

No, the Classified Docs case is not being pushed. The 11th circuit court will not allow that and Cannon will be removed.
 
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-legal-...RONTtcXoXD2BqjXDTt5nzEcWyfwMAWmQuaO0OjEkP9o5d

Judge pushes back December deadlines until at least March 1, 2024, all but guaranteeing trial delay

Key players: Judge Aileen Cannon, special counsel Jack Smith

On Friday, Cannon swiftly rejected a Thursday filing made by prosecutors requesting that the judge schedule December deadlines for Trump’s lawyers to identify which classified documents they would use at trial, ABC News reported.

Instead, Cannon said she wouldn’t consider establishing deadlines until March 1, 2024, when she has scheduled a conference to hear arguments on delaying the trial until after the 2024 election.

Because the case centers around highly classified material, including national security secrets kept at Trump’s Florida home, access to the evidence is restricted. Trump’s lawyers have argued they need more time to view it.

Cannon has scheduled the trial to begin on May 20, 2024, a date she kept to in a ruling last week. But she also stated that she would revisit the question on March 1.
 
I haven't seen one legal analyst yet say that this trial is still looking good to happen May 2024. Because of the nature of the clearances, there's probably no chance they'll be ready by March 1st, which will again force another delay.

She is delaying this case by paper cuts, and it's also forced Fanni Willis to push out her estimated trial date for Fall 2024, and she admitted yesterday that she expects it to go into 2025.

There's still DC and NY trials for 2024. And the GA case would begin just as we're heading into October/November.

That will push more negative news to voters, but I'm not really sure it will matter.

The one block that Trump did great with, and seems to still be building support, is Latinos. He got around 37% of that voting group in 2020, and if that trends continues upward it would be enough in some swing states. Especially with a potential 3rd party(s) playing spoilers.

I still can't believe we would want an election between anyone and Donald Trump. To give that man any shot at taking back office is a death sentence.

The other GOP candidates are horrible people, but it would be a slower death with potential of reversal.
 
I haven't seen one legal analyst yet say that this trial is still looking good to happen May 2024. Because of the nature of the clearances, there's probably no chance they'll be ready by March 1st, which will again force another delay.

She is delaying this case by paper cuts, and it's also forced Fanni Willis to push out her estimated trial date for Fall 2024, and she admitted yesterday that she expects it to go into 2025.

There's still DC and NY trials for 2024. And the GA case would begin just as we're heading into October/November.

That will push more negative news to voters, but I'm not really sure it will matter.

The one block that Trump did great with, and seems to still be building support, is Latinos. He got around 37% of that voting group in 2020, and if that trends continues upward it would be enough in some swing states. Especially with a potential 3rd party(s) playing spoilers.

I still can't believe we would want an election between anyone and Donald Trump. To give that man any shot at taking back office is a death sentence.

The other GOP candidates are horrible people, but it would be a slower death with potential of reversal.




this brings up an interesting question.

since it looks like Nikki Haley is replacing charmless Tiny D as the non-Trump alternative, would you rather have Trump win the nomination knowing he'd (likely) be easier to beat in the general, or have Nikki win the primary, knowing she would (likely) be a tougher candidate to beat in the general?
 
Can't see the end of that clown 's "career" soon enough. Witch hunt!


WASHINGTON (AP) — The House Ethics Committee in a scathing report Thursday said it has amassed “overwhelming evidence” of lawbreaking by Republican Rep. George Santos of New York that has been sent to the Justice Department, concluding flatly that he “cannot be trusted” after a months long investigation into his conduct.

Shortly after the panel’s report was released, Santos blasted it in a tweet on X as a “disgusting politicized smear” but said he would not be seeking reelection to a second term. He gave no indication, however, that he would step aside before his term ends, vowing to pursue his “conservative values in my remaining time in Congress.
 
this brings up an interesting question.

since it looks like Nikki Haley is replacing charmless Tiny D as the non-Trump alternative, would you rather have Trump win the nomination knowing he'd (likely) be easier to beat in the general, or have Nikki win the primary, knowing she would (likely) be a tougher candidate to beat in the general?

100% yes. A Trump nomination equals a Biden win and we should all be cheering for this.
 
I refuse to underestimate the psychological power that Trump holds over his supporters.The fact that he's an alleged criminal how many times over now doesn't even matter to most of them. No guaranteed Biden win over Trump, no way imo. 2016 we thought the same.

And conveniently the new House speaker is releasing all the Jan 6th footage, including the escape routes of members of Congress and where they went to hide. This is clearly being done to try to bolster conspiracy theories without any regard for security. And to try to help Trump in the process.

Lord I pray there is no smoking gun in that footage or anything else that can be even twisted like a pretzel into one.
 
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I refuse to underestimate the psychological power that Trump holds over his supporters.The fact that he's an alleged criminal how many times over now doesn't even matter to most of them. No guaranteed Biden win over Trump, no way imo. 2016 we thought the same.

And conveniently the new House speaker is releasing all the Jan 6th footage, including the escape routes of members of Congress and where they went to hide. This is clearly being done to try to bolster conspiracy theories without any regard for security. And to try to help Trump in the process.

Lord I pray there is no smoking gun in that footage or anything else that can be even twisted like a pretzel into one.

Trump’s base is small in the grand scheme of things and that’s why he’s a poor candidate. The perfect storm happened in 2016 with Hilary and Trump caught a lot of people by surprise. Didn’t happen in 2020 and for sure won’t happen in 2024.
 
this brings up an interesting question.

since it looks like Nikki Haley is replacing charmless Tiny D as the non-Trump alternative, would you rather have Trump win the nomination knowing he'd (likely) be easier to beat in the general, or have Nikki win the primary, knowing she would (likely) be a tougher candidate to beat in the general?

Haley.

I'm 100% on Team "Trump is an awful nominee who couldn't possibly be elected."

I was also on that team in 2016.

And yes - I do think it's different. I think it's more like 2020 than 2024, and every election since 2016 has gone against Trump and Trumpisim.

I'd still rather not take the risk that we're that fucking stupid of a nation.
 
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