U2's downfall...

[rihannsu]

"SYCMIOYO: over-the-top cheesy emo "your the reeeason I saaaing, your the reason wha-ha-ha-hay the opera is in me.."

your joking right?

If Bono had simply decided to write an over the top emotional song your criticism might have value. But this song is Bono's very personal feelings about his very real and troubled relationship with his father. It isn't made up out of thin air. The opera reference is both because his father was an opera fan and because Bono's over the top dreaming and idealizing was born of his fathers oppressive negativity about having dreams. Bono's very personality was shaped by this relationship and it is all in the song. Sure the words may seem cheesy when you read them but how anyone can watch Bono perform this song and not be moved is beyond me. Even towards the end of the tour after having performed it countless times he was still practically in tears when he sang it. This song positively drips with heartache and loss, and I feel sorry for anyone who can't see that.

Bono writes what is in his heart or in the hearts of those around him. That kind of honesty for me gets him a free pass on a lot of cheese because when you know the artist is being true it give a whole different feel. I won't argue that reading some of Bono's lyrics on a page can at times be positively painful and yet when you hear or see him sing them, they get to you. But the trick is you have to open your heart. If you come at U2 with a cynical attitude there is probably plenty that you can mock, but if you come with an open heart and mind you can be touched, and inspired. I've read plenty of reviews or blog posts where people who mocked or hated U2 for years were suddenly touched by one particular song and then when they go back and relisten to everything else their entire viewpoint is changed. How many other artists are able to consistantly pull almost all of their back catalogue into the charts whenver they tour? I think I saw a report that during Vertigo they had 12 albums in the charts at once.

Dana

 

[BVS]

"SYCMIOYO: over-the-top cheesy emo "your the reeeason I saaaing, your the reason wha-ha-ha-hay the opera is in me.."

your joking right?

Emo? You're joking right?

 

[U2girl]

"SYCMIOYO: over-the-top cheesy emo "your the reeeason I saaaing, your the reason wha-ha-ha-hay the opera is in me.."

your joking right?

Wait, the best part is this is a song exclusively written to get a Grammy.

 

[rihannsu]

Wait, the best part is this is a song exclusively written to get a Grammy.

Man, who on earth said that? For god's sake Bono started the song while his father was dying and sang an early version of it called "Tough" at his father's funeral. The first few public performances he barely got through it without bawling and you can see the concern on the faces of the band as they watch him sing it. Yeah, sure he wrote it specifically to get a Grammy. HA!
Hell, Bono himself said he was surprised it meant so much to people besides him. He initially thought the song was to narrowly focused to have wide appeal. When you watch the U2 and 3 songs DVD Adam's comments about Sometimes seem to indicate that he was pretty apprehensive about Bono trying to sing that song repeatedly on tour.

Dana

 

[purpleoscar]

Downfall? Not according to Steve Lillywhite.

http://forum.interference.com/f196/steve-lillywhite-best-u2-album-187941.html

 

[U2girl]

sarcasm on my part but it did happen

Man, who on earth said that? For god's sake Bono started the song while his father was dying and sang an early version of it called "Tough" at his father's funeral. The first few public performances he barely got through it without bawling and you can see the concern on the faces of the band as they watch him sing it. Yeah, sure he wrote it specifically to get a Grammy. HA!
Hell, Bono himself said he was surprised it meant so much to people besides him. He initially thought the song was to narrowly focused to have wide appeal. When you watch the U2 and 3 songs DVD Adam's comments about Sometimes seem to indicate that he was pretty apprehensive about Bono trying to sing that song repeatedly on tour.

Dana

The comments started dripping once the alternate versions came out. Of course the early "Sometimes" was deemed the real thing, while the album version is a slick single and Grammy stuff.

 

[rihannsu]

The comments started dripping once the alternate versions came out. Of course the early "Sometimes" was deemed the real thing, while the album version is a slick single and Grammy stuff.

Comments where? Fan boards, critics, the press?? Like I said who was saying it and was it after the Grammy nominations? Hell, that's just plain stupid.

So they get knocked for finishing the song? Gee, why not go all the way and criticize him for capitalizing on his grief the way everybody slammed Clapton for Tears in Heaven. I'm beginning to think that the downfall of any artist is simply allowing anyone else to experience their work. People don't think of bravery in connection with art but I tell you what, I think it would be easier to run into a burning building to rescue someone then to create something and allow the slavering hordes of the world to savage it. It makes me admire Bono all the more for the ability to find the joy in his work that he so obviously does after 30 years of being ripped to shreds. That U2 is still as hungry to create new songs as ever is truly amazing.

Dana

 

[Zoots]

The slightest hint of negative criticism yet again quashed by the "U2 can do no wrong" party! Good job!

 

[BVS]

 

[rihannsu]

The slightest hint of negative criticism yet again quashed by the "U2 can do no wrong" party! Good job!

Quashed??? Just because I question it??

If you can't defend your position why post? I may ask why people feel the need to rip the band apart or challenge their statements but if I ever said it wasn't allowed then I heartily apologize.

If you can't defend your position except by complaining that you're being quashed then that's your problem. There is just as much criticism leveled against those who praise U2 as there is against those who critcize them. It seems to me that there is just a strong a "U2 can do no right" crowd that jumps all over every positive post with accusations of blind acceptance. I've seen more postitivity being quashed on this board than negativity. It's sometimes like taking your life in your hands to say anything positive about the last two albums.

Dana

 

[ozeeko]

who cares that SYCMIOYO is about his father, the song could be about radishes. it's an overblown, sappy, sentimental power ballad that is trying way to hard to pull on the heartstrings. even the arrangement is obvious, the chiming guitars, the strings that tell you when to cry, all the way to Bono's celine dion moment "souuuul, ure the reason why operas are blah blah". If this all translates to you as RAW EMOTION or DIRECT, then I don't know what isn't RAW EMOTION or DIRECT, because that would mean all of Bon Jovi's or Nickelback's or (i can't believe i'm about to say this) CREED's songs have RAW EMOTION and are DIRECT. This song is on the same level as CREED's "With Arms Wide Open", a totally over the top sentimental lame song hiding behind its lyrical content (which also is lame). If you want to hear genuine songs about the loss of loved ones, check out Tommorrow, One Tree Hill, Stuck in a Moment, I Will Follow.

 

[Rob33]

The slightest hint of negative criticism yet again quashed by the "U2 can do no wrong" party! Good job!

omg....you've got to be kidding me.

Quashed??? Just because I question it??

If you can't defend your position why post? I may ask why people feel the need to rip the band apart or challenge their statements but if I ever said it wasn't allowed then I heartily apologize.

If you can't defend your position except by complaining that you're being quashed then that's your problem. There is just as much criticism leveled against those who praise U2 as there is against those who critcize them. It seems to me that there is just a strong a "U2 can do no right" crowd that jumps all over every positive post with accusations of blind acceptance. I've seen more postitivity being quashed on this board than negativity. It's sometimes like taking your life in your hands to say anything positive about the last two albums.

Dana

exactly....good series of posts Dana, I agree

 

[onyourkneesboy]

The slightest hint of negative criticism yet again quashed by the "U2 can do no wrong" party! Good job!

That's exactly what I said!
Any form of criticism here gets choked by the "shame-you-don't-get-it-and-i'll-tell-you-what-exactly-U2/Bono-means"-police!
Like if anyone who has an opinion that swims against the mainstream U2 hallelujah-attitude doesn't get "it".
And in the case of SYCMIOYO: when I heard the song for the first time, it had an instant appeal to me, I liked it.. But the more I heard it the more it gave me a bad taste in my mouth.. Later on concluding that I found it overexposure of emotion. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying Bono isn't feeling what he's feeling but the way the song's been presented and marketed over the last years was over-exposure for me..
And don't tell me I don't understand what Bono might have felt because I've been there myself! My father passed away a couple of years ago after being sick for many years.. and he meant a lot to me. Therefore I really experienced the situation from up-close and the years afterwards.. All the tables get turned in a very unreal way..
That's the reason why I think a song like Kite does a much better job on this topic. It leaves you room to BREATH. And more important: to FEEL on such a heavy experience in one's life.. There's subtelity in the song and creates space to really feel what Bono is feeling and therefore I can really relate to him...
With SYCMIOYO it seems he wanted to be as accurate and literal as he could be to really hit the nail on the head. For me, he mostly hits his own finger blue.. It shoots passed it's goal because it's all to much. It's like an aunty that keeps you telling about the dying of her husband over and over again on any occasion, on every birthday.. First you feel for her, but later on it gets a little annoying. A bit more discretion can have much more impact to get one's point across.. As Kite, even One does a better job.
So I respect Dana's (rihannsu) opinion on the song and that she stands up for Bono as his "shrink" who exactly knows what he's is feeling and thinking.. But she might underestimate the fact that there might be (longtime) U2-fans who have an opinion of their own about the band and their songs. And in this case find SYCMIOYO over-exposure and the subtelity of Kite fantastic on this subject. Based upon experience.

So cheesiness IMO can also be found in at first very sencere meant songs. For me there's to much of that on HTDAAB. Lot's of cliché's and cheese.

From Boy to POP I liked every album... (o.k., not every song) but:
Everytime they found a new form to bring their music across in an original way! But on the last one, HTDAAB, it was just to all too much: U2 being pompous-U2 over the top but with too little songs that are new and original and will stand the test of time.

So I'm still very positive about this band and have been defending them in almost every possible way over the last say 25 years. But I think with HTDAAB they missed. I think I'm entitled to say so. When Bono decides to burp his lyrics instead of singing them that's all fine, but I don't want to be corrected by somebody who does understand why Bono is now burping and not singing.. Sorry, but some of the fans here just seem to have that attitude.

So when they deliver the new album in a sensational original way as Lanois promised, i'll be the first one here to praise them skyhigh!

 

[rihannsu]

who cares that SYCMIOYO is about his father, the song could be about radishes. it's an overblown, sappy, sentimental power ballad that is trying way to hard to pull on the heartstrings. even the arrangement is obvious, the chiming guitars, the strings that tell you when to cry, all the way to Bono's celine dion moment "souuuul, ure the reason why operas are blah blah". If this all translates to you as RAW EMOTION or DIRECT, then I don't know what isn't RAW EMOTION or DIRECT, because that would mean all of Bon Jovi's or Nickelback's or (i can't believe i'm about to say this) CREED's songs have RAW EMOTION and are DIRECT. This song is on the same level as CREED's "With Arms Wide Open", a totally over the top sentimental lame song hiding behind its lyrical content (which also is lame). If you want to hear genuine songs about the loss of loved ones, check out Tommorrow, One Tree Hill, Stuck in a Moment, I Will Follow.

If you can't hear as much real emotion in SYCMIOYO as is in One Tree Hill then I feel for you. As for your arguement about "With Arms Wide Open" how can the lame song be hiding behind the lyric if the lyric is also, as you say, lame? This is all purely subjective arguement because what is overblown, sappy and sentimental to you is absolutely beautiful to others. It just means you don't like the song and it doesn't get through to you. But it doesn't mean that the song has no emotion or that it is crap. "With Arms Wide Open" isn't actually a crap song either but it doesn't hold up well to repeated airplay and suffers somewhat once you know anything about the singer himself. But I actually like it and respond to it when I haven't heard it for a while. I can even like some of Nickelback's songs when I only hear them once or twice a year. Tomorrow and One Tree Hill never had to pass the test of overexposure. But hell even the best songs out there can be killed by overexposure. Doesn't make the song any less great. But then again the theme song from "Flipper" reduces me to tears, so hay, to each his own.

Dana

 

[ramblin rose]

I'm starting to think this thread shouldn't be in this particular forum. I thought this forum was to discuss the new album, not to rehash the same criticisms of the last album for the 100000th time.

 

[rihannsu]

stands up for Bono as his "shrink" who exactly knows what he's is feeling and thinking.. But she might underestimate the fact that there might be (longtime) U2-fans who have an opinion of their own about the band and their songs.

It's somehow Ok for people to put words in Bono's mouth or state that Bono meant such and such but it's not Ok for me to refer to what Bono actually does say? I'll be the first to admit I'm not perfect but I try very hard to make a distinction between what I think Bono means and what Bono has said. Is it somehow against the rules to use Bono's own statements in a discussion about the songs? If I can't give a reference to support my claim and you choose not to believe it that's your call but I don't see where I am trying to suppress anything and if you took it that way again I'm sorry.

You've got every right to your opinion but I don't have a right to question your conclusions? I don't care one way or another if I change your mind or you change mine but I thought the whole point of discussion boards was to discuss? Maybe if you don't want to discuss your opinions you should put up a warning stating that it's not open for discussion?

You seem to be seeing me as some kind of blind fanatical U2 defender but you come across as if your opinion is right and anyone who questions you is trying to shut you up. There is no real right or wrong here just whether it works for you or not. The idea that somehow the negative critcism on this board is being suppressed is laughable. I've stopped reading more than half the threads simply because the negative seems to overwhelm the positive most of the time. Maybe we need to put + or - signs on the threads and not allow discussion at all, would that make you happier? The truth is I've recently got tired of all the bashing and decided to be just as vocal on the positive as others are on the negative.

Dana

 

[Zoots]

Dana, were you on the debate team in school?

 

[cobl04]

This thread's funny as!!!

 

[cobl04]

Just want to say my favourite posts are the ones where people are saying "Bono needs to write about this." Not only does it almost sound like we're holding him at ransom, perhaps these things haven't happened to him recently!!!

 

[rihannsu]

Dana, were you on the debate team in school?

No but my older brothers were and I had to argue with them all the time.

Dana

 

[Rosebud]

Dana I always love to read your posts. You are so articulate, rational, and fair, not to mention I pretty much always agree with you 100%! In my opinion you are a credit to this forum.

 

[rushu2]

^ I agree. I hadn't really thought about how on the last album that they were competing in a world awry with rap, r&b, teen-pop etc. and still trying to make a decent rock album. I didn't know that.

I think it is hard for us old timer fans to listen to their newer stuff because back in the 80's they really were quite unique and seemed to come out of left field- and their new stuff seems sort of "generic".

Anyway, you make some very good points, Dana. See, I think they still have it in them to make something really special. I am especially excited that they are working with Eno. I'm a member of a prog rock board and I have to say so many fans on that board really like the new coldplay album-surprisingly! Alot of them credit Eno for that. Though coldplay did not make a "prog" album so to speak-they really thought they made some intelligent music that really pushed their limits.

/currently listening to Ulver-Blood inside-talk about mind blowing!!:

 

[rihannsu]

Thank you, Rosebud and rushu2. I've always loved a good arguement. It's one of the things I like about Bono. It's fun to match wits with others and keep you sharp.

Dana

 

[last unicorn]

Bono can write about issues that bother him any way he wants, these are his feelings and I don't think he - or any other artist/singer/writer - should justify the way they feel and express those feelings.

I find it really upsetting that some people, just because they don't like a particular song, want to tell Bono how he should write about an issue that is so obviously close to him and important for him.

I've never seen Sometimes as a typical single or even a Grammy favourite, in fact I was surprised that it won a Grammy, but even better for Bono, because he won the songwriter award for it.

What I really think is that the song came to life when performed live, and Bono knew he had to pull off these vocals every single night on the tour. I believe it is one of the ultimate U2 live moments in recent years, a defining moment on their last tour.

I'd rather have songs like these on an U2 album, songs that I feel are heartfelt and sincere, than stuff where U2 are trying hard to be experimental, innovative, or whatever. I want music for the heart and for the soul.

 

[kingofsorrow]

i can't for the arguments that will no doubt occur when the new album comes out.
"too dark"
"too poppy"
"too metal"
"when the hell is edge going to catch on fire again?"
"they sound like coldplay"

 

[U2girl]

"what masterpiece?"
"best album - not"

 

[U2girl]

Kite (not the same topic but that's another matter) doesn't have obvius "telling you to cry" lines, strings to pull at your heart and the oh so subtle chorus and "I'm a MAN" climax (I mean Celine Dion moment) And you're NOT the one telling us what Bono should be feeling, writing, thinking ?

Right.

 

[U2girl]

Comments where? Fan boards, critics, the press?? Like I said who was saying it and was it after the Grammy nominations? Hell, that's just plain stupid.

So they get knocked for finishing the song? Gee, why not go all the way and criticize him for capitalizing on his grief the way everybody slammed Clapton for Tears in Heaven. I'm beginning to think that the downfall of any artist is simply allowing anyone else to experience their work. People don't think of bravery in connection with art but I tell you what, I think it would be easier to run into a burning building to rescue someone then to create something and allow the slavering hordes of the world to savage it. It makes me admire Bono all the more for the ability to find the joy in his work that he so obviously does after 30 years of being ripped to shreds. That U2 is still as hungry to create new songs as ever is truly amazing.

Dana

I take it you didn't see the regular "the outtakes were better" posts after they released those Bomb and All that... alternative versions within the digital U2 catalogue release ?

They were (are) totally torn to pieces for not releasing those. You see those were there real feelings and real "songs" on the pre-album versions, and the album versions are ca$h grabbing, radio-friendly "hits" designed solely for more sales.

 

[BVS]

You see those were there real feelings and real "songs" on the pre-album versions, and the album versions are ca$h grabbing, radio-friendly "hits" designed solely for more sales.

 

[shaun vox]

BonoVoxSupastar do you really have to laugh at others?
not everyone is a blind u2/bono follower. some people will like anything u2 puts out......... and i mean anything.
ps atryclb is not a masterpiece, its an ok album, u2 needed a change after pop. but its not a big album.

the only masterpiece u2 have are.
war
Jt
Achtung baby.

thats it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ps i think R&H is fucking kicks arss. great album. better than atyclb and bomb.