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If I don't like a song the first or second time, it sure as shit won't be getting a tenth or twentieth chance



Truly? I would never write a song off after only one or two listens. There’s too much context to consider. Time and experience can certainly change an attitude. I personally never enjoyed WLCTT when I first heard R&H but I now consider it a great song. (Not looking for an argument of the merits of the song; merely stating an opinion - that an opinion can change). Have you never reheard a song in a different light?
 
There are artists, and songs, that have crept up on me over years, even decades. In fairness I suppose it is rare that I abjectly detested most of them on first acquaintance, but that's a long way from getting them.

Of course I don't listen to 500 albums a year, so I suppose I have more time to spend with stuff.
 
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The volume thing is a good point Kieran - I'm going to have to change up how I listen to new music next year, because this thing of making a shortlist and trying to listen to them all is just not working for me at all. This is more suited to RMT, but I cannot listen to 100+ albums in a year. I've tried this the past couple years, I've heard quite a few albums this year and a lot of have been in the "good but not great" category and I'm finding that the LM-style approach of listening to everything is just resulting in me not connecting with more music and it's a bit depressing.

?? Care to tell me what stuff I'm forcing myself to like? The songs I originally had problems with on SOI have not improved themselves in my eyes. I still strongly dislike the chorus of Iris, have replaced EBW with the earlier version for my playlist, and still think the guitar solo in SFS is abysmal.

As for the new stuff, the only song I've listened to more than once is the live version of The Blackout. I'm waiting until the album goes out to hear the others again because they really did not appeal to me.

'Forcing to like' is not really what I meant. You've always been genuine. But I do think that because it's U2, you give their music many more chances (and at a lower bar) than you do music by other artists. You've got great taste in music, and I can't reconcile that with the fact that you also really dig Volcano, for example. I played that yesterday for the first time in a while and I couldn't even get through it. I think you're always hoping for the best and looking for the good when it comes to U2, but maybe 'too sympathetic' was the phrase I was looking for.

Like I agree with you that The Troubles and Reach Around are pretty great songs, but neither would rank in my top 50 U2 tracks. I quite like The Blackout, but I think there's a tendency here sometimes (not just you) for us to elevate these songs/albums higher than we normally would because it's U2.
 
Very, very few people should listen to music the way I do because a good chunk of the population has jobs and social lives, whereas I spend most of my time doing online courses for my teaching credential and writing. You'd be surprised how many re-listens of my favorite 2017 albums that I've managed to fit in despite hearing nearly 250 albums on the year. I've probably heard DAMN and Everybody Works by Jay Som 10-20 times each.

For someone with no free time, I'd say tracking down 50-75 albums a year that you have a legitimate shot of enjoying and focusing on those is totally reasonable if you set aside even a few hours a week (< 2% of your time) for music.
 
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Truly? I would never write a song off after only one or two listens. There’s too much context to consider. Time and experience can certainly change an attitude. I personally never enjoyed WLCTT when I first heard R&H but I now consider it a great song. (Not looking for an argument of the merits of the song; merely stating an opinion - that an opinion can change). Have you never reheard a song in a different light?

Truly. Of course it's contextual. A song I dislike on an album I do like will get incidental listens; a song on an album I don't like, or a stand-alone song that did nothing for me, won't get much of a chance at further listens. And why should it? There is so much great music out there that I want to put on repeat and play compulsively, why waste my time with a song that doesn't register? I average about 250 new albums a year, and I'd like to think I know my own tastes pretty well by now. I'm fairly generous in what I add to my Spotify library or download; if it doesn't even make me think "yeah I might want to hear that again at some point", I'm unlikely to change my perspective.

And sure there are a few songs where my initial impression and my current one are different, like your WLCTT example. The most dramatic is Pinback's Grey Machine, which I hated on first listen and is now one of my very favourite Pinback songs. Part of the reason it got more of a chance is because the rest of the Offcell EP clicked with me immediately, and one day I left it playing and halfway through Grey Machine was all "wait I thought this song sucked? This is awesome!" (It's 11 minutes long and too much of my initial dislike was based on the intro.) But the other part was that I was a teenager obsessed with prog metal; Pinback were basically the only indie rock band I listened to, and Grey Machine was just a bit too far beyond my predominant listening. Once my tastes expanded in my early 20s, it fitted very neatly and I doubt I would have the same initial reaction now.

Closer to home Interference-wise is A Man and a Woman, which I thought was a superficial ditty at first but now rate as one of HTDAAB's better tracks, and continued exposure helped there. But usually my opinion of songs towards which I'm initially ambivalent (or worse) goes down through exposure, not up, so I'm not worried that there are more than a few good songs I'm missing out on by moving on quickly - and whatever few I'm missing out on are more than counteracted by all the great ones I've found by moving on. I do wonder if all these people urging more listens to U2 songs to fully appreciate them would accord the same generosity to other bands. If you hear a song you don't like on the radio, do you think "maybe I'll like that after the twentieth listen"?

The volume thing is a good point Kieran - I'm going to have to change up how I listen to new music next year, because this thing of making a shortlist and trying to listen to them all is just not working for me at all. This is more suited to RMT, but I cannot listen to 100+ albums in a year. I've tried this the past couple years, I've heard quite a few albums this year and a lot of have been in the "good but not great" category and I'm finding that the LM-style approach of listening to everything is just resulting in me not connecting with more music and it's a bit depressing.

It's funny, you can tell just by looking at my RYM stats that 2015 is my favourite year of the past decade because it's actually one of the years from which I've listened to the fewest albums. I think it's just short of 250 albums, while 2010 and 2011 are both above 300 and this year is set to crack that mark too. That's because there are so many albums from 2015 that I fucking adore that I spent heaps of that year just playing them, and less time seeking out other stuff. 2017, on the other hand, hasn't been as strong, so with fewer albums I'm playing on repeat excessively, I've spent more time trying to find that album. You can tell I've fallen in love with Blood Command's album and Young Ejecta's latest single because I've not rated a whole lot of new stuff in the past week (it's kind of embarrassing that I've got about 80 scrobbles of Build a Fire in that period, but goddamn it's so good, miles ahead of Young Ejecta's previous work).

My listening selections are very much on instinct, I don't try to expose myself to a certain amount of albums. But like LM my job and lifestyle allows me to listen to a lot of music. And in a way music is like a drug and albums I spin a lot are the really good highs. I'd have shared before my story of listening to Anathema's album Judgement for the first time in 2006. I'd never experienced an album quite like that before, such an intense emotional response. After the initial high passed - when I played it for hours a day and even rigged up speakers to listen to it in the shower - much of the rest of my music listening has been trying to replicate that high.

Very, very few people should listen to music the way I do because a good chunk of the population has jobs and social lives, whereas I spend most of my time doing online courses for my teaching credential and writing. You'd be surprised how many re-listens of my favorite 2017 albums that I've managed to fit in despite hearing nearly 250 albums on the year. I've probably heard DAMN and Everybody Works by Jay Som 10-20 times each.

:up:

Just a quick scan of my last.fm stats indicates my favourite albums this year have had about 15-20 listens each, and my favourite songs over 30 (three over 80).

Having music on at any waking moment and working a solitary job sure helps here. And I wouldn't say I've have a quiet social life this year either; if anything quite the opposite.
 
So, the post 1999 era. Subjective as it may be to some, but given the band's penchance for dumping a trio or even a quartet of eugh, no on pretty much all of the post 90s albums, do you find yourself more often making playlists from the source material (ie including Ground Beneath, Never Let Me Go, Stateless etc) of the last 17 years or can you still happily play the albums 1-11 as you would an earlier phase like Boy-TUF? And do you find it easy to sorta trundle through the SFS, Comedy and Boots of this world still? I know some have made their own 'version's of the albums. For example I tend to ditch the unholy NL trinity and add Winter and Soon, which seems to be a common 'alt' version around 'ere.
 
I have more free time than most people probably, but I can't just zone on music for hours on end. For one thing, earbuds are shit, and headphones hurt my ears and head even if the sound is excellent. It'll be for a little bit in the evenings if at all. And what I do listen to, I'm likely in any given six month period, to be hanging out a fair bit with a group of the same records.

Which is to say that even when I was 18, 19, 20, I don't think I've ever listened, properly listened, to more than 12-16 new albums in a year. Or old albums that were new to me.
 
So, the post 1999 era. Subjective as it may be to some, but given the band's penchance for dumping a trio or even a quartet of eugh, no on pretty much all of the post 90s albums, do you find yourself more often making playlists from the source material (ie including Ground Beneath, Never Let Me Go, Stateless etc) of the last 17 years or can you still happily play the albums 1-11 as you would an earlier phase like Boy-TUF? And do you find it easy to sorta trundle through the SFS, Comedy and Boots of this world still? I know some have made their own 'version's of the albums. For example I tend to ditch the unholy NL trinity and add Winter and Soon, which seems to be a common 'alt' version around 'ere.

The trouble for me is that I could compile a playlist of all the good/great U2 songs from 2000 till now. I could do that, and as sour as I sound a lot of the time, it would be album-length at least.

The trouble is it would be impossibly disjointed. What does that even look like?

I can't play any of them 1-11 like earlier. That's why I'm so down on them. Not one of those albums lacks a shitton of stuff I can't overlook, and don't want to spend time with.
 
Truly. Of course it's contextual. A song I dislike on an album I do like will get incidental listens; a song on an album I don't like, or a stand-alone song that did nothing for me, won't get much of a chance at further listens. And why should it? There is so much great music out there that I want to put on repeat and play compulsively, why waste my time with a song that doesn't register? I average about 250 new albums a year, and I'd like to think I know my own tastes pretty well by now.

I don’t doubt it! I certainly would not be hearing anywhere near that amount of new music (nor, to be honest, would I want to be at this stage of my life). No judgment towards you at all; each to their own.


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I do wonder if all these people urging more listens to U2 songs to fully appreciate them would accord the same generosity to other bands. If you hear a song you don't like on the radio, do you think "maybe I'll like that after the twentieth listen"?

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I certainly don’t count myself among those urging anyone else to take more listens to U2, or anyone else for that matter. I really couldn’t care less what anyone else listens to or how much of it or even whether they like it. I barely have enough time in my own day to listen to what I want to, let alone worry about anyone else. More often than not, I seek silence rather than constant music, as I did when I was younger. Another way that tastes change, I guess.

I think people (me included?) fall into the trap of over-listening to U2 songs that may not be as ‘good’ as others, simply because of the familiarity and loyalty to the band/brand. It’s like an enduring friendship or marriage with another person where you, on occasions, make allowances for behaviour that you might not otherwise tolerate in an acquaintance or stranger.

I do know though, having married someone with polar opposite tastes in music, that listening to a song or album that I don’t like, several times, does not magically make me like it. It has, however, made me respect that other person’s choices, even if they are not choices I myself would ever make.
 
More and more I'm just listening to old shit lately. Apart from that National record, and to an extent that St Vincent record, it's pretty much wall to wall Iggy Pop.

Ok, that's an exaggeration, but it was true of a month ago.
 
I think people (me included?) fall into the trap of over-listening to U2 songs that may not be as ‘good’ as others, simply because of the familiarity and loyalty to the band/brand. It’s like an enduring friendship or marriage with another person where you, on occasions, make allowances for behaviour that you might not otherwise tolerate in an acquaintance or stranger.

I know you weren't talking to me, but I'll chip in and say I definitely was that way a lot with U2 back in the day, and probably am that way now with some artists like The National. Where the ratio of good to great work is high enough, I'm prepared to make allowances because there's a decent chance even the (seemingly) less great stuff is better than I think it is.

But once that trust is blown - say a consistent run of lesser work, as with U2 after 2000, Wilco after 2005, REM after 2000 - then all bets are off.
 
Hmm, I guess I’m a sucker then. I wasn’t enamoured with first listens to HTDAAB and still yawn though current listens to NLOTH but I was excited about SOI and am bloody excited about SOE. I like the melodies I’m hearing and although I’m missing the sweeping Edge sounds of the past, I’m ready to embrace the bass that is Mr Clayton. I personally think SOE will be a winner. For me.
 
True about the old stuff. Lately it's been the Complete Sessions Miles Davis Boxes for me. Five and Six Disc sets. A lot of the bonus material (aka 4 of 5 discs!) is just alternative takes and jams but no matter it just flows and creates a brilliant soundtrack that if you are working on your own stuff and thangs you can kinda lose yourself in it and get shit done without feeling a sense of repetition which you'd definitely get with remixes and re-takes of rock or pop songs that can turn up in shuffles or programmed playlists which would be a pain and you'd tend to skip anyway, but because it's generally improvisation it makes sense and I also find instrumental music easier to concentrate and (ugh) multi-task with.
 
Of course, I'm not blind to the convenient way in which the past is squished in like a concertina... so, I mentioned Iggy Pop, also Van Morrison's seventies stuff, other different folk... and I'm well aware that some of those runs were hit and miss even at the time, but I'm not hanging out for an album as it appears and being disappointed/let down, I'm just browsing through stuff that's there and making up my own mind.
 
More and more I'm just listening to old shit lately. Apart from that National record, and to an extent that St Vincent record, it's pretty much wall to wall Iggy Pop.

Ok, that's an exaggeration, but it was true of a month ago.
I've mostly given up searching for 2017 music lately and am working through this enormous backlog of old albums that I tagged on Rateyourmusic. There must have been over 690 albums on there. I'm trying to listen to an album a day from it so I can look back a year from now and feel like less of a hoarder. Today I discovered that Emily Haines put out a really wonderful "solo" album a number of years ago that's radically different from Metric.

Oh and I'm listening to that National album this very second. Here it's falling white flowers and there's ice on the trees...
 
Hmm, I guess I’m a sucker then. I wasn’t enamoured with first listens to HTDAAB and still yawn though current listens to NLOTH but I was excited about SOI and am bloody excited about SOE. I like the melodies I’m hearing and although I’m missing the sweeping Edge sounds of the past, I’m ready to embrace the bass that is Mr Clayton. I personally think SOE will be a winner. For me.

I wish I was excited, just because it's fun to be awaiting an album. That thrill of putting it on for the first time, you know? It's so good. SOI was the first album I wasn't excited for on release, but it dropped so suddenly and abruptly that it wasn't really a thing. SOE is the first one where I'm, shall we say, not on board. I thought I might be slightly on board when The Blackout dropped, but everything since has me expecting the worst. I kind of wonder if I might end up with a more positive take just because right now my expectations are so low that exceeding them at all will seem like a victory.

I don’t doubt it! I certainly would not be hearing anywhere near that amount of new music (nor, to be honest, would I want to be at this stage of my life). No judgment towards you at all; each to their own.

I will say that it helps that I'm single, have no kids, the aforementioned solitary job (which involves a lot of writing, and I write very well to music, it sparks my creative processes), and that a lot of my social life revolves around the Melbourne music scene - which has made moving away that much harder, but I've kept in touch - so listening to new stuff is part and parcel of hanging around there. Being single isn't a pre-requisite, since a lot of my heavy listening has come in relationships, but my longest was with somebody of very similar tastes so my constant playing of new stuff in the evening wasn't a problem.

I think people (me included?) fall into the trap of over-listening to U2 songs that may not be as ‘good’ as others, simply because of the familiarity and loyalty to the band/brand. It’s like an enduring friendship or marriage with another person where you, on occasions, make allowances for behaviour that you might not otherwise tolerate in an acquaintance or stranger.

:up:

This is absolutely true. I've done it for U2, as I've done it for heaps of other bands I love. I've listened to mediocre Crowded House songs much more than I'd listen to mediocre songs by a band I'm only moderately keen on, because I fucking love Crowded House and those songs just end up in the mix, or I'll see it in my iTunes and think "yeah I haven't heard it for a while, why not give it another spin". (Though I draw the line at Not the Girl You Think You Are, for which I reserve the same vitriol as Stand Up Comedy.)
 
I've mostly given up searching for 2017 music lately and am working through this enormous backlog of old albums that I tagged on Rateyourmusic. There must have been over 690 albums on there. I'm trying to listen to an album a day from it so I can look back a year from now and feel like less of a hoarder. Today I discovered that Emily Haines put out a really wonderful "solo" album a number of years ago that's radically different from Metric.

Oh and I'm listening to that National album this very second. Here it's falling white flowers and there's ice on the trees...

I must admit the descriptions of that Emily Haines solo album make me suspect I won't enjoy it. But it's worth a go?

And I wish I could find a few more 2017 albums to really love, so I'm still sifting through releases and looking forward to getting tips from year-end lists. I expect my own year-end list will be a lot of good and only a little great. How many albums am I passionate enough about to absolutely, without question, say that they command a top ten position? I doubt it's ten! Or to put it in Rate Your Music terms: I've given heaps of 4/5 ratings but just one 4.5/5 so far. Not having a 5/5 is less of a shock; I've only recently bumped a couple of albums from 2015-16 to that rating. I'm usually very free with distributing ratings, but 5/5 is a big deal for me and I recently redid my 5s after thinking about it for a long time.

(We really should be having this chat in RMT huh. Oh well, we're here now.)
 
I've mostly given up searching for 2017 music lately and am working through this enormous backlog of old albums that I tagged on Rateyourmusic. There must have been over 690 albums on there. I'm trying to listen to an album a day from it so I can look back a year from now and feel like less of a hoarder. Today I discovered that Emily Haines put out a really wonderful "solo" album a number of years ago that's radically different from Metric.

Oh and I'm listening to that National album this very second. Here it's falling white flowers and there's ice on the trees...


I'm not even sure I have a backlog, and I don't use rateyourmusic or whatever.

It's probably more just soaking in some of that stuff I used to read about (in some cases over twenty years ago, in some cases (!) namedropped by U2 themselves, whodathunkit) and that connects in some way to pre-existing interests or pathways that I'm already headed down, and nowadays youtube is there (with occasional glaring gaps or 'removed' material to be sure), so why not. Most of it could be characterised as belonging in some way or another to the mainline of rock and roll, at least before the internet blew everything apart.

That's half my problem with U2! Music is more than just a collection of hooks in some cultural vacuum. They used to know that. Here I am working through the great stuff that used to influence them, but nowadays, who knows who their influences are? Ryan Tedder? Fuck that shit.

People here talked about David Bowie so much that I gave him a shot and decided I'm firmly a 1975-80 Bowie guy. Wouldn't have known that otherwise.
 
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I must admit the descriptions of that Emily Haines solo album make me suspect I won't enjoy it. But it's worth a go?

It's more Aimee Mann than Metric, so based on your taste I would say give it a pass. On the other hand, fuck, that is some really good songwriting. YMMV.

No 5s for me this year, but I don't usually give out a 5 until years have passed with an album and it's something I'm comfortable listing as an all-timer. I'm extremely picky about that top tier. On the other hand, I throw out 3.5s and 4s so often they've become meaningless. I should consider that good luck instead of a personal failing, I suppose.
 
Not The Girl You Think You Are is actually my favourite Crowded House song.

It was nice knowing you.

No 5s for me this year, but I don't usually give out a 5 until years have passed with an album and it's something I'm comfortable listing as an all-timer. I'm extremely picky about that top tier. On the other hand, I throw out 3.5s and 4s so often they've become meaningless. I should consider that good luck instead of a personal failing, I suppose.

The last time I gave a 5 straight away, I regretted it after a few months and it's now a 4.5, so yeah I'm definitely very reluctant to give it out without lots of time and replays.

But yeah I have a similar problem with my 3.5s. Those range from "yeah, not a shabby overall effort" to "some of these songs are all-timers but there are also a few clunkers".
 
'Forcing to like' is not really what I meant. You've always been genuine. But I do think that because it's U2, you give their music many more chances (and at a lower bar) than you do music by other artists. You've got great taste in music, and I can't reconcile that with the fact that you also really dig Volcano, for example. I played that yesterday for the first time in a while and I couldn't even get through it. I think you're always hoping for the best and looking for the good when it comes to U2, but maybe 'too sympathetic' was the phrase I was looking for.

Like I agree with you that The Troubles and Reach Around are pretty great songs, but neither would rank in my top 50 U2 tracks. I quite like The Blackout, but I think there's a tendency here sometimes (not just you) for us to elevate these songs/albums higher than we normally would because it's U2.


I don't really know what to say to this. Like most people, I joined this board because I think the band is one of the best musical acts. I'm not on any other band's forum. I think at their best they can still do something better than 99% of artists, and when they're not at their best they're still better than most. Yes, their run of high-mark consistency ended a while ago, but you know, not every late-period Dylan album is without songs I don't care for.

Just because you and a handful of other people here think most of SOI is unlistenable garbage doesn't make it so. It also doesn't mean I'm giving it a over-inflated Rolling Stone review because of past glories. I like the sound these guys make together. Sometimes I strongly dislike their choices and direction, and I wish most of the first half sounded different. But they still know how to make magic within the choices they've made.

Some people have a preference for studio-wizardry, psychedelic Beatles. Some prefer the earlier material's energy and pure pop craft. Some prefer the later, more organic work of Let It Be or The White Album. But you can still love all or most of it if you appreciate the musicianship and writing and the singer's commitment. This is in a much more compressed time period but I think it still applies.
 
It's probably more just soaking in some of that stuff I used to read about (in some cases over twenty years ago, in some cases (!) namedropped by U2 themselves, whodathunkit) and that connects in some way to pre-existing interests or pathways that I'm already headed down, and nowadays youtube is there (with occasional glaring gaps or 'removed' material to be sure), so why not. Most of it could be characterised as belonging in some way or another to the mainline of rock and roll, at least before the internet blew everything apart.

I can sympathize with this. There are some acts I have wanted to get acquainted with (Magnetic Fields) or revisit (Beck) but just haven't gotten around to it because there is so much I want to keep up with from the current year.

For 2017 I am going to clock in at 75 albums or so. Probably only half of those have I given more than one listen, and only ten or so do I listen to on a regular basis.
 
If it were any other artist, I wouldn't even give a new album a chance if they released songs like U2 has so far this year.

But because it's U2, I'm going to try to listen to SOE with an open mind. This is the first time in my 20-year fandom that I've felt this way.
 
From an interview in the Sunday Times:

About Songs of Experience, Edge says “simplicity is where music is at” now, and offers Rihanna’s sparse Anti album as inspiration.

:drool:
 
Good interview, with some pretty heavy comments from Bono. Sounds like he's had a real crisis of fate in the last year or so.
 
Though I draw the line at Not the Girl You Think You Are, for which I reserve the same vitriol as Stand Up Comedy.)

Your taste is ... one of a kind (ie fucking weird). Crowded House are awesome BECAUSE they can create songs like that and pull it off.
Fanny
 
Can somebody C&P that interview here? I found it via google but it's behind a wall, they want me to register to read the damn thing. I'm not registering, even if it's free.
 
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