illegal downloaders should have their internet taken away - u2 manager

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toscano said:


If it's money you mean, no not true at all, it's a net wash. Your statement is only correct if there was a potentially larger personal TAM, there wasn't

If I'd bought the Cds I may not have gone to all of the concerts, plus it was usually multiple tickets, wife, son, daughter, sometimes, all of us. Tell me what you'd get more money from, 3 ticket sales or 1 CD sale ?

I understand your story, but that's not the point.

If your job consists of 2 tasks and you used to get paid for both, but then all of a sudden you stopped getting paid for one because of some new technology you'd be pissed.

My whole point is that just because you can, now you feel entitled to it and you'll find anyway to justify it. But if this technology wasn't around you wouldn't be demanding free music, you'd by buying the albums and going to the concerts.





toscano said:

No, but it does work for waitresses, concession stands, arena/club employees, local labor crews, bouncers, etc.
I haven't seen any evidence that concert attendances are higher than pre p2p technology, in fact overall attendances are down last thing I saw.
toscano said:

Many session musicians get paid a flat fee for a studio session, they have already been paid so there's no guarantee they would all have been impacted.
True, but if sales keep plummeting this will no longer be the case.


toscano said:

If my job was in jeopardy because the service I offered could be gotten for free elsewhere I'd have to either:

a - Look for a different job
b - Adapt my service to offer something my competitors couldnt

Or I could whine about how everyone who could use me (but may not) should pay a surcharge anyway just in case.
Who's suggesting a surcharge if you don't use it?

Adapt service the competitors couldn't? Let's see how do you compete with free music?
 
Originally posted by David Bowie

Originally posted by David Bowie
I don't even know why I would want to be on a label in a few years, because I don't think it's going to work by labels and by distribution systems in the same way. The absolute transformation of everything that we ever thought about music will take place within 10 years, and nothing is going to be able to stop it. I see absolutely no point in pretending that it's not going to happen. I'm fully confident that copyright, for instance, will no longer exist in 10 years, and authorship and intellectual property is in for such a bashing.

Music itself is going to become like running water or electricity, he added. So it's like, just take advantage of these last few years because none of this is ever going to happen again. You'd better be prepared for doing a lot of touring because that's really the only unique situation that's going to be left. It's terribly exciting. But on the other hand it doesn't matter if you think it's exciting or not; it's what's going to happen.

Last time I checked you pay for water and electricity.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


I understand your story, but that's not the point.

If your job consists of 2 tasks and you used to get paid for both, but then all of a sudden you stopped getting paid for one because of some new technology you'd be pissed.

If I was doing 2 tasks and I knew I was only going to get a maximum of "X" amount of money from them both combined no matter what the technology I'd be happy to get it whether it came mostly from source A or B.


BonoVoxSupastar said:

My whole point is that just because you can, now you feel entitled to it and you'll find anyway to justify it. But if this technology wasn't around you wouldn't be demanding free music, you'd by buying the albums and going to the concerts.


I'd be paying the same amount of money to the musicians regardless. I just spend more on concerts now than CDs because the prices are a lot higher. Don't kid yourself into thinking I'd be spending more if I couldn't get the albums for free. I'd just be robbing Peter to pay Paul.




BonoVoxSupastar said:


I haven't seen any evidence that concert attendances are higher than pre p2p technology, in fact overall attendances are down last thing I saw.

But ticket prices are higher, a LOT higher. Merchandise is more, parking is more, drinks are more expensive. More income is being generated fo rmore people, artists included.



BonoVoxSupastar said:



Who's suggesting a surcharge if you don't use it?


The 'torrent tax' advocates. Don't worry about who is using it, for waht and how much, just charge them all extra.

BonoVoxSupastar said:

Adapt service the competitors couldn't? Let's see how do you compete with free music?

Differentiate the product somehow. Make it more than just a song. Someone a lot smarter than I coul deasily come up with something.

With CD sales first of all bring the price down.

Secondly, you could enclose coupons for discounts on concert tickets for example, or other touring merchandise, something only the purchaser could use and couldn't get for free elsewhere.

I don't know, as I said some Marketing guru could easily come up with a content that supercedes the traditional music-only model which is about to go the way of the dodo, those trying to perpetuate the current model are just modern day King Canutes.
 
ybab gnuthca said:
Ha, yes. But I don't think that is his point at all.

Well it's pretty easy once you're set for life to be comfortable with future musicians not getting paid.

I still haven't seen that solution of yours...
 
Who says he is comfortable with it?

Besides, where does he project that future musicians won't be paid?

He's saying that they need to come up with new ideas.
 
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toscano said:


If I was doing 2 tasks and I knew I was only going to get a maximum of "X" amount of money from them both combined no matter what the technology I'd be happy to get it whether it came mostly from source A or B.

Even if it was a pay cut?


toscano said:


But ticket prices are higher, a LOT higher. Merchandise is more, parking is more, drinks are more expensive. More income is being generated fo rmore people, artists included.

Wonder why that is? Part of it is they are giving their art out for free, but the other part is cost of living and everything else has gone up, so don't think it's all pure profit.



toscano said:


The 'torrent tax' advocates. Don't worry about who is using it, for waht and how much, just charge them all extra.

Not one person has said this. They've all mentioned optional package deals are something similar.


toscano said:

Differentiate the product somehow. Make it more than just a song. Someone a lot smarter than I coul deasily come up with something.
Well as long as it couldn't be put on the internet, right? :wink:


toscano said:

With CD sales first of all bring the price down.

Secondly, you could enclose coupons for discounts on concert tickets for example, or other touring merchandise, something only the purchaser could use and couldn't get for free elsewhere.

Mark them any lower and it might as well be free. The coupon is a good idea though.


toscano said:

I don't know, as I said some Marketing guru could easily come up with a content that supercedes the traditional music-only model which is about to go the way of the dodo, those trying to perpetuate the current model are just modern day King Canutes.

I agree with this, and it seemed to be going this way for awhile (with additional video, screensavers, etc) but it quickly ended when the videos were easy enough to start downloading as well.
 
ybab gnuthca said:


And you still have some reading to do.

I've read every single one of your posts never saw one.

If I have overlooked something please point it out, I've asked you kindly twice.

Or you can continue to be a jerk.
 
ybab gnuthca said:

Besides, where does he project that future musicians won't be paid?

He's saying that they need to come up with new ideas.

He said nothing about new ideas, he said get ready for a lot of touring.

So if you can't tour a lot, you are screwed.

Sorry musicians of the future, but people got greedy. :shrug:
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


He said nothing about new ideas, he said get ready for a lot of touring.

So if you can't tour a lot, you are screwed.

Sorry musicians of the future, but people got greedy. :shrug:

.............and the record companies who you rely upon failed you miserably
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


If you are the 1% that uses it legally you will have to pay for the "silver", "premium", "deluxe"(whatever they choose to call it) package.

That (if there is a way to differentiate between legal and illegal contents downloaders), or integrate the tax into the money you pay for internet access each month, or the money you pay when they first plug you onto the internet.
 
U2girl said:


That (if there is a way to differentiate between legal and illegal contents downloaders), or integrate the tax into the money you pay for internet access each month, or the money you pay when they first plug you onto the internet.

That's the problem. No one can differentiate between legal and illegal downloads, especially on torrents. All the ISPs see is the bytes uploaded or downloaded, not what is being uploaded and downloaded. And, people won't stand for being taxed or charged for something they don't do (for those who don't download).

My situation is similar to toscano's; I've downloaded a large amount of music illegally (yes, I know it's stealing and is wrong, and I'm not going to defend that), but I've also gone out and seen these bands and purchased their merchandise. It is correct that they've lost the CD sale, but the band has gained on average $60 from me going to the concert and buying at least one shirt. This is probably not the case for a lot of people, but it is for me.

I don't know what the solution should be. The industry needs to find a way to appease all sides, performers and consumers. It's obvious that the system is broken, but I just don't know how they could get people to go back from having music available so easily, albeit illegally.
 
There is no way that anyone had currently though of that will stop illegal downloaders.
 
first off, i just want to say i've read this entire thread and i agree with everything axver, marty, and tourist have said. :D

i really don't know what to say that probably hasn't already been said several other times, but i feel as someone who buys music i should contribute to the discussion. yes, i buy music and support artists in other ways too. yes, i've downloaded illegally in the past too.

i'll be frank. the whole reason i don't do it anymore is because my isp is an asshole and blocks torrents. i could use a program like limewire or what have you but that'd take forever to download an album. that may sound harsh but it's true. so now my only resort to obtaining albums is to pay for them, most of the times without hearing them, or ask a friend of mine (which is a huge imposition) if they can download a torrent for me and then send me the album.

the thing is though, given the choice, i do like obtaining music legally. of course i'm flat broke and in a ton of debt, but even back when i could still go to my favourite torrent sites and open as many torrents as i wanted, i'd either do that to check the artist or album out, and then end up buying it, or if i knew i'd already like it, i'd just buy it.

amazon is great for having cds at amazingly cheap prices, for the most part. most of the times cds are like $9, which is the same as it'd cost on itunes, plus with no tax and free shipping, it comes out to less because with itunes you've got to pay tax. so i wait the two days for it to ship and then i have a physical copy and i can burn it in whatever format i desire.

but itunes sucks. itunes plus is a great concept, but nine times out of ten, the song i want isn't available in that format. i think it's only emi that's jumped on that bandwagon so far? so that's one out of a few big record companies. i've bought so few in that format, i can't remember if those songs cost more or what. and the regular songs, 99 cents is too much. as it's been said, to pay $9 for a 9-track cd (a standard for older albums it seems) in a lossless format (which that part i don't care about, but it's the principle of the thing), and i get nothing extra in return is lame. no packaging, no bonus song, nothing. so for the most part, i use itunes to buy that one song i would've downloaded other ways instead. what's annoying though is, and it's not itunes' fault, how many artists or labels or whatever are still not available. they'll have all tracks on an album except the one you want. or the one popular song is album only (like on a greatest hits or a soundtrack, i'm not talking about the itunes box sets). all these years later the itunes music store is still so shitty. i've bought hundreds of songs and a few albums from there, but there's tons of changes i'd make if i had the ability.

the problem is though, none of it would stop the downloaders. for me personally, i'd lower itunes songs to 79 cents apiece, and that'd be great. it'd increase their sales, but it wouldn't stop downloading. even to 50 cents wouldn't stop. i don't even think if they sold songs for a penny for like a week illegal downloading would stop during that time period, because you'd still get people doing it just out of principle, which is ridiculous. if itunes ever did something like, offering songs for a penny, i'd rush through and buy songs like mad, songs i think maybe somewhere down the line i'd like, just because it'd only be a penny!

illegal downloading i think is a double-edged sword. i mean i already admitted i've done it in the past, and i'd resume doing it if my isp wasn't blocking it. but still, it irks me to see it happening so rampantly, to see people lazily posting threads in the mp3 forum asking for official song after official song instead of buying them on itunes for $1 or something. i guess it's because i started doing it in the golden age, back when there was napster and you didn't have to ask people, you just logged on to the program and typed in your song and there were 1000 people with the song and you could pick and choose how good quality of a song you wanted. the one you downloaded sounds like shit? there's 100 others in the bitrate you want available with tons of people available to share it, so you can try again.

anyway, this has been possibly the longest post i've ever made, and incredibly rambling. but there definitely needs to be a change made. part of me doubts anything will change, at least on the business side. they'll just keep grasping at straws and try to get it back to the way it was in the 80s and early 90s when people bought tons of albums and it wasn't possible to download music online. ugh.
 
KhanadaRhodes said:
first off, i just want to say i've read this entire thread and i agree with everything axver, marty, and tourist have said. :D

I feel special! :wink:
 
KhanadaRhodes said:
i don't even think if they sold songs for a penny for like a week illegal downloading would stop during that time period, because you'd still get people doing it just out of principle, which is ridiculous. if itunes ever did something like, offering songs for a penny, i'd rush through and buy songs like mad, songs i think maybe somewhere down the line i'd like, just because it'd only be a penny!


Black Friday would be a wonderful day in the USA for that to happen. Everywhere else has amazing discounts that day. Anyway, it's probably best they don't do that, though. They'd have so much downloading it'd probably crash their site. Personally if they had a deal like that I'd spent as much time as I could that day/week/time period and spent a hundred or more dollars.
 
the tourist said:
I feel special! :wink:
you should! i was reading the thread and found myself agreeing with every one of your posts :D

the tourist said:
Black Friday would be a wonderful day in the USA for that to happen. Everywhere else has amazing discounts that day. Anyway, it's probably best they don't do that, though. They'd have so much downloading it'd probably crash their site. Personally if they had a deal like that I'd spent as much time as I could that day/week/time period and spent a hundred or more dollars.
yeah, that would be an awesome idea. but yeah, the crashing thing would be a negative aspect. but like you said, if they were to offer that i'd just download as much as i could, just because i could. that would definitely be a way to stimulate the economy! :wink:
 
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