Irvine511 said:
do you have any idea that an all-out unilateral invasion was probably the worst way to go about resolving the situation? do you have any idea that Saddam was a murderous dictator, but there are many, and that an invasion on an electoral timetable that milked the tragedy of 9-11 is an insult to every single person that has died in a war that has nothing to do with the safety of the average american? do you have any idea how different things would be if ANY OTHER administration had pursued the same policy, only with out the fuck-off attitude towards the rest of the world combined with a sickening arrogance that has come back to bite it in the ass? can you not understand that such things are incredibly complex, and that there's never only two choices in regards to any situation? do you have any idea the fact that Saddam was a weak old man just a shadow of his old self?
[q]Here is a reality check for ya, as a percentage of GDP, the national debt is roughly the same as it was under Bill Clinton. [/q]
and what kind of reality check is this? is this the "deficits don't matter" argument?
[q] Arguements about "the growing disparity between the rich and the poor, the grossly unequal distribution of wealth, the 40m without health care insurance" could be leveled against any administration of the past half century. The fact is, the United States has one of the highest standards of living in the world, and the current standard of living in the country is higher, if only slightly, than it was during the rosiest times of the Clinton administration according to the United Nations Human Development Index totals. [/q]
and this is totally irrelevant -- not to mention neauseatingly smug and totally divorced from non-privileged white male reality -- if you don't have health care, are morbidly obese, are trapped in service sector job, have shitty public schools, have no way out of your town except through military service.
nor does it change the fact that Bush Sr. did nothing nor was Bush Jr. going to do a thing until 9-11, and you'll remember that, initially, the Taliban were seen as a good thing, a way to fill the power vaccume and provide some sort of stability to the country. it wasn't until the late 1990s that their human rights abuses because well known. this is not to excuse clinton, but it is to stop your veneration of the Bushes as faultless.
and shall we talk about the weekly meetings that Clinton had about OBL that were promptly dropped when Jr. took over because all he wanted to think about was China and his national security advisor was an expert on the non-existent Soviet Union? remember the missile defense shield? remember "Osama Bin Laden determined to strike within the US"? THESE were the Bush administration's priorities before 9-11. if you want to blame Clinton, fine. but at least acknowledge that there is more than enough blame to go around.
1. The Invasion of Iraq was not a unilateral invasion and was the only option left in order to bring about compliance with the UN Security Council Resolutions. The initial invasion had 3 different countries involved with troops on the ground. It was authorized by UN Security Council resolution 1441 in November of 2002. In June of 2003, the occupation was approved by UN Security Council Resolution 1483. Dozens of countries have deployed their own troops to Iraq and there have been few occupations in the history of the planet with more countries participating.
From March 1991 to March 2003, the United States and other member states of the United Nations did everything they possibly could short of invasion to bring about compliance. Saddam had a military force of 430,000 , 2,700 tanks, nearly 2,000 Armored Personal Carriers, over 2,000 artillery pieces, 300 combat aircraft, over 100 combat helicopters, and unaccounted for stocks of WMD as well as Ballistic Missiles. On a more personal standpoint, Saddam had 12 different security services, some who's job was simply to spy on the other security services. The only way to bring about compliance given Saddam's refusal to cooperate starting in the mid-1990s was regime change through military invasion given the size and strength of his military forces and personal security services. Compliance has been achieved and one of the worst threats to global security has been removed. Multiple ways short of regime change were tried by the United States and other member states of the UN for 12 years and they all failed. The invasion successfully achieved what the other options had failed to.
2. No Dictator has ever used WMD as many times as Saddam did. No other Dictator was in violation of 17 UN Security Council Resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations. No other dictator had recently invaded and attacked four different countries. No other dictator had threatened the planets main energy supplies with siezure or sabotage. Name another Dictator that has been responsible for the deaths of 1.7 million people since 1979! The average American like every other average person on the planet is seriously impacted by the cost of energy and the impact that the loss of energy from the Persian Gulf would have on the entire global economy. This is not the first time the United States has fought a war against Saddam! There is a reason why the United States deployed over 500,000 troops to Saudi Arabia in the fall of 1990. Simply put, there are few if any places on the planet that impact US national security more than the Persian Gulf Region, and it has been that way for decades!
3. The Clinton administration had stated early on that it wanted to act in Bosnia, but it essentially did nothing for 3 years. While it talked and talked, over 250,000 Bosnian Muslims were slaughtered. They get credit for finally acting and solving the problem, but what they started to do in the fall of 1995 could have been done in the Spring of 1993! So, one thing that you would likely see from a Democratic administration is a lack of resolve or action on a key issue which cost lives and damages security.
In Kosovo, when the NATO bombing began and the Serbs were starting their final push to drive out the Muslim population, it was discovered that there was no humanitarian supplies at all in neighboring Albania where the refugees were all fleeing to creating mass suffering and hardship. The humanitarian supplies meant for the potential refugee exodus had been placed in Kosovo now under full control of the Serbian military.
Its likely if US large numbers of US ground troops had been deployed to the region prior to the NATO bombing, the Serbs would have withdrawn from Kosovo prior to the start of bombing and agreed to NATO terms. But without the threat of a ground invasion from NATO, the Serbs went ahead with their final Ethnic Cleansing effort and NATO had to bomb Serbia for 78 days to get them to agree to leave Kosovo. The Clinton administration was about to prepare to send ground troops to the region when the Serbs gave up, but had such ground troops been in the region months prior to hostilities, the whole bombing campaign and refugee exodus might have been avoided.
4. I realize that the United States problems with Saddam did not start in 2002, but had been constantly ongoing since August 2, 1990. There are too many people around the world that are uninformed about what happened in Iraq from March 1991 through September 2001. Dealing with Saddam was indeed a difficult and complex problem and many things were tried from March 1991 through March 2003, but sometimes there is only one solutuion to a problem, and this proved to be the case with Saddam after other attempts to solve the problem failed.
5. Saddam's age was irrelevant. In addition, were talking about a regime, not just one man. Saddam's sons were worse than his father in terms of rational behavior and their caculations. A military force of 430,000 , 2,700 tanks , 2,000 armored personal carries, 2,000 Artillery pieces, 300 combat aircraft, thousands of unaccounted for stocks of WMD, Ballistic Missiles sitting just across the border from a small country like Kuwait is not an example of Saddam's percieved weakness.
6. The United States has experienced far larger national debts and deficits in its history than what is being currently experienced.
7. Even in Norway, the country with the highest standard of living in the world, there are some people who live in poverty. The fact is, when it comes to standard of living in the United States, the United States has the one of the highest standards of living in the world. Its current rank is #10. The United States currently has one of the lowest poverty rates in the history of the country. In fact, the 2004 poverty rate, the last for which statistics are available,is the 17th lowest in the country's history.
8. I always find it funny how liberals love to put all the blame of 9/11 on the Bush administration when they had only been in office for 7 months. Clinton had 8 years and the only thing he did in Afghanistan was launch 20 Cruise missiles at empty tents and caves one day in August of 1998. Bin Ladin had been determined to attack the United States for nearly a decade in 2001. Everyone knew that , and the report simply restates the obvious. The Democrats tried this garbage arguement in the 2004 election and the result was that Bush was re-elected with the first majority any President had had since 1988, and the Republicans gained seats in the House and Senate, the first time that an happened in an incumbent presidential election in half a century.
