Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
I thought it was because of the gay sex and baby killing.
funny. i just call that "friday night."
I thought it was because of the gay sex and baby killing.
i hope Bono will give voice to my outrage on the new album.
funny. i just call that "friday night."
Those crafty zionists control the media you know, thats the only explanation.
it's the lack of perspective and the bias in the American media that allows a story like this to be published. what about the dead kids? we need to see the dead kids so i can get upset and angry and rage against the (IDF) machine. understanding exactly *why* the IDF blew something up -- without actually excusing, justifying, or applauding the actual destruction -- is something that complicates my simplistic moral outrage, so i choose to ignore it.
i hope Bono will give voice to my outrage on the new album.
Do you think that the Israeli lobby influences public attitudes which are displayed in the media?What is the basis for such a comment?
Has anyone in this thread even remotely implied that 'crafty zionists' control the media?
Do you believe that people who criticize Israel are Jew haters, is that seriously your contention?
Do you think that the Israeli lobby influences public attitudes which are displayed in the media?)
Do you think that stories which report on Hamas using human shields or abusing humanitarian resources (for instance using UNHRA ambulences to stage rocket attacks a few years ago) are given disproportionate attention for similar reasons?).
Anti-zionists are having their cake and eating it too, on one hand Mearsheimer and Walt are trotted out as proof that Israel lobby has influence over the political landscape, that the Palestinians are caricatured as terrorists in a slanted media narrative because of these vested interests; on the other hand any criticism is dismissed as an ad hominem accusation of anti-semitism.
Anti-Zionism is distinct from anti-Semitism, pointing out that most anti-semites are anti-zionists and the causal arrow is one way is a legitimate point (this means that being an anti-semite may directly lead to anti-zionism much, much more than anti-zionism leads to anti-semitism).
QUESTION: You've been very critical of the American liberal community and in fact you've said that they're contributing to Israel's destruction. Please talk a little bit about that.
CHOMSKY: The American liberal community since 1967 has been mobilized at an almost fanatic level in support of an expansionist Israel, and they have been consistently opposed to any political settlement. They have been in favor of the aggrandizement of Israeli power. They have used their position of quite considerable influence in the media in the political system to defeat and overcome any challenge to the system of military confrontation using all the standard techniques of vilification, defamation, closing off control over expression, etc. and it's certainly had an effect. I don't know if it was a decisive effect, but it had some noticeable effect on bringing about U.S. government support for the persistent military confrontation and U.S. government opposition to political settlement. For Israel that's destructive. In fact, Israeli doves constantly deplore it. They constantly refer to it as Stalinism. They refer to the Stalinist character of the support for Israel on the part of what they call the "Jewish community," but that's because they don't understand enough about the United States. It's not just the Jewish community, which is what they see; it's basically the intellectual community at large.
QUESTION: Edward Said, for example, has pointed out that there is much more pluralism in terms of the discussion, the debate, in Israel itself than inside the United States.
CHOMSKY: There's no question about that. For example, the editor of the Labor Party journal, the main newspaper of the Labor Party, has asked me to write regular columns. I won't do it because I'm concerned with things here, but that's totally inconceivable in the United States, you can't even imagine it, you can't even imagine an occasional op-ed. That's quite typical. Positions that I maintain, which are essentially in terms of the international consensus, they're not a majority position in Israel, but they're part of the political spectrum, they're respectable positions. Here it's considered outlandish.
Those crafty zionists control the media you know, thats the only explanation.
Your argument seems to be that any attack which (knowingly?) kills civilians is unjustified and goes against the principles of international law. You cite an obvious example of disproportionate force.
I don't agree with the generalization that 'the American liberal community' is 'fanatically mobilized in favor of expansionism,' and I think plain old cynical apathy is a much bigger factor than Chomsky apparently perceives. The effective discipline and PR savvy of US neoconservative foreign policy lobbyists is painfully obvious, but I think a problem that's perhaps not so apparent from the outside is the exasperatingly whiny, self-pitying resignation of much of the American left on this issue. I'm not a Middle East expert, but as an academic and a political scientist, I do come into contact with more people who are reasonably well-informed and highly opinionated on Israel policy than the average American does (in the classroom, at panel discussions and conferences, in casual discussions with other scholars etc.), and it's been apparent to me for years now that there are many, many progressives out there who whine endlessly about the evils of AIPAC and the indignation of imputations of anti-Semitism, but when asked about their own experiences with these obstacles, it immediately becomes clear that in fact they don't do shit about it, ever--they don't contact their elected officials in Washington, they don't write letters, donate to or sign petitions for any of the many pro-peace organizations some of us have been supporting for decades, they don't contribute to the progressive Israel policy PAC, they don't do even the most basic local-level stuff, like engaging otherwise-inclined friends, families, fellow churchgoers etc. in constructive debate on the issue or attending peaceful coalition protests. In short, apparently all they really want to do is retreat to the sidelines and whine about being unfairly stigmatized (indirectly, of course--meaning, some pundit they admire who actually has the balls and ambition to say things they won't got slammed), rather than taking a chance on personally butting heads on understandably and predictably touchy issues which inevitably, because of the history behind them, stir up strong emotions, anxieties and resentments. I really do understand the intimidations here (from firsthand experience), but, sorry--grow the hell up. We're a multiethnic, multireligious, democratic society, and a socially and politically mature citizen should be able to calmly but critically analyze and rebut arguments that recognizably stem from a historically emotionally charged perspective (and as such, yes, can sometimes slip into paranoia or manipulativeness, whether strategically or not), without developing overblown neurotic complexes about the kinds of resistance you're likely to encounter and requiring chronic reassurance that, Yes indeed, you're the most fair and enlightened advocate any reasonable party to a dispute could ever ask for! If nothing else, it ain't that hard to write letters to politicians, sign petitions, and donate to advocacy groups whose stances you support. The more grassroots support they get, the harder they'll be to marginalize.Extracts from an interview with Chomsky
Really wonder what the Israeli excuses will be for two hits on UN run schools. The latest killing at least 40. BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Strike on Gaza school 'kills 40'
The case of the school seems excessive, as do missile strikes which kill bomb makers and their entire families.
But what is the allowable response against an opponent who uses human shields?
Your argument seems to be that any attack which (knowingly?) kills civilians is unjustified and goes against the principles of international law. You cite an obvious example of disproportionate force.
The question must be framed in light of what the Israelis knew, or could have potentially known (even perhaps deliberately ignored), about the target and what went into the decision for the attack.
As obvious and unsurprising as Hamas using humanitarian resources as staging posts and stockpiles for rockets that should not exclude them from responsibility for the Israeli response (nor should it justify any and all violence against Palestinians; both sides being wrong is a truism).
What is a reasonable approach to an opponent which uses human shields, and is that approach a realistic one?
This is just another perfect example of Hamas using their own people as human shields - as they've done so many times before.
The UN school was proven to be a launching site of Hamas for missiles and quassams against us. They hid their weapons in bunkers under the school, right under wear the children were sitting. They thought that they were safe to launch their attacks against us from there - but they were wrong and, again, innocent children were killed because Hamas didn't care about them.
As for the cowardly Hamas "leadership" - where are they now? The Palestinians in Gaza are helpless, without basic necessities, without electricity, with sewage running through the streets, with hundreds of people who have no shelter to run to......and where are the leaders? They're in their ratholes underground, shaking in their boots, hiding from us like the cowards that they are, hiding in hospitals among the doctors and patients and also hiding in ambulances - putting yet MORE civillians in danger.....and basically leaving their people to fend for themselves when their people need them the most.
The most ironic thing about this situation is that it is ISRAEL who will be providing the aid needed for the Palestinians in Gaza. Israel is allowing supply trucks with humanitarian aid to cross into Gaza to relieve some of the pressure. Do you get the irony? ISRAEL is providing the services that Hamas (as the rulers in Gaza) should be providing.
Hamas is a pathetic terrorist organization that has brought nothing but death and destruction to the Palestinian people and very soon they will be brought down to the gutter where they belong and the Palestinian people will FINALLY be free.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053455.html
See my previous response even if it's a legitmate miltary target the fact that civilians were known to be present (and it was known as the IDF had the GPS coordinates of the school and knew it was being used as a shelter) then the burden on the Israelis to prevent loss of civilian life is clear. In the US or UK (you know a civilised country) the officer ordering the attack would be undergoing a courtmartial by now. And it's not proven, just because the IDF (who are not neutral) say it is. The UN school was a designated shelter and was manned by UN personnel, who say it wasn't a weapons dump, the UN are far more neutral than the Israeli's who'll say anything to cover up (remember the USS Liberty and the UN observation post in 2006)
Popshopper,
The bodies of Hamas militants that were hiding in the building were found in the rubble.
I assume they WEREN'T there to seek shelter.........
Says who? The IDF and the Israeli and US media who get their information from the IDF. There are no independent sources allowed in the region. And even if they were, it's still a FUCKING war crime, the Geneva Convention is clear, I know the Israeli's haven't signed up to it. The UN have said there weren't "Unwra spokesman Christopher Gunness said the agency was certain Hamas militants were not using its school to attack Israeli troops." BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Pressure grows for Gaza ceasefire and Hamas have also said they werent there(although I'd trust those murderers as much as I'd trust the IDF).
And by the way when the IDF shelled the UN outpost Qana in Lebanon in 1996 (killing 100 civilians) it said the same thing then came out and apologised when the heat died down. And again when they bombed Qana in 2006. And when they bombed the UN observation post in 2006, initially it was a Hezbollah target, then suddenly when the international media outrage subsided they again apologised. And there's always the sinking of the USS Liberty. The IDF have a easily documented history of lying to cover up atrocities and then later saying "oops, sorry".
I said this when it began - it is extremely troubling to me that Israel has prevented journalists from going in there and continues to prevent them. It's suspicious, it looks bad, and it makes me not believe a single thing Israel or Hamas say, since there can be no believable, objective third party to verify or document it.
Look, this argument is futile. I can argue our side from here to tomorrow and my point just won't get through.
I truly value and respect every single opinion on this board - even those who condemm my country as war criminals, that is the nature of free discussion and debate. However, the fact remains that you don't live here and you can't possibly understand the terrorism that we've faced from Hamas in the 21 years since it's founding. They began with sparadic attacks against individuals and then they "graduated" to suicide bombings, perfecting their deadly methods with each passing year, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of innocent Israelis (who were TARGETED).
From 2001 they started shooting short range home-made Quassam rockets at the cities and areas around the Gaza strip, causing damage and injuries. When Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip in 2003, Hamas used the abandoned lands as launching areas to move the missiles closer to the cities of Sderot and eventually extended their range till Ashkelon. After Hamas seized power of Gaza in 2007, there was nothing standing in their way of obtaining more missiles with longer ranges - now reaching the city of Ashdod (where I live) and beyond.
As well as their missiles, Hamas built an underground network of tunnels which are used to smuggle in explosives from Egypt (with the help of Al Qaida cells in the Sinai) and to carry out attacks against our soldiers (one of which resulted in the abduction of our soldier Gilad Shalit who is still being held captive).
All through the years, Israel has endured these countless attacks with little response. In order to stop the smuggling of arms and terrorists across the borders, Israel has sealed the passes to the Gaza strip, allowing only humanitarian aid through. Hamas used this to its advantage to portray Israel as ruthless and cruel and the world (of course) bought into this propaganda - totally ignoring the CAUSE of Israel's actions.
In June of 2008 Israel and Hamas reached a "truce" which was to end the rocket attacks and allow for some sort of negotiations to go forth (with the mediation of Egypt). Naturally, Hamas took every opportunity to break the truce and continued firing at us......and still we did NOTHING. They used the so-called cease fire to re-arm themselves with longer range missiles and were just waiting for the chance to use them. That chance came on December 17th when they officially announced the end of the "truce" and commenced firing on our cities - firing over 85(!!) missiles in one day.
.....well, that was the LAST straw as far as Israel was concerned.
We knew that we couldn't keep living like this and subjecting our citizens to endless bombardments from Gaza and that's when we decided to take action.
I am NOT ignoring the plight of the Palestinian people in this regard - they are as much victims as we are. They are also captives of a brutal regime that doesn't care anything about them and their problems. Do you think that Ismael Haniya (the Hamas prime minister) actually CARES that his people are out of work, have no basic necessities, no electricity, no food? What does HE care? As long as he spends millions of dollars on arming himself against us rather than take care of his own people.
Hamas could have ended the seige of Gaza a very long time ago - it is their blind hatred and stubborness that keeps the Palestinian people in darkness and without any hope for the future.
The fact remains that we are NOT the "bad guys" in this war. We had no choice but to put an end to the reign of terror that we've been under since 2001. Our southern cities have been held hostage for long enough and the time has come to free them from this burden and hopefully, as a result, the Palestinians in Gaza will be free too.
There is a good reason for this. It's not because we have anything to hide but rather to keep our soldiers safe.
Unlike the United States, who had embedded journalists when they went to war in Iraq, Israel does not have journalists tagging along with the tanks and armored carriers. The element of surprise is crucial against the enemy and to have journalists covering and reporting their every move would jeapordize the safety of the soldiers and the mission in general.
Furthermore, the soldier's cellphones were confiscated because their movements could also be pinpointed by the signals they put out.
As for information, the IDF spokesman gives briefings to the journalists and I've already posted the address of the YouTube channel started by the IDF spokesman in order for people to know what's going on.
So you see, we're not hiding anything - we're just very careful and cautious about the safety of our fighters in an ongoing campaign.
There is a good reason for this. It's not because we have anything to hide but rather to keep our soldiers safe.
Bullshit, Israel were bombing the crap out of Gaza and the West Bank before Hamas even existed so it's a bit rich to blame everything on them. When the IRA and ETA were attacking the UK and Spain respectively, neither the UK nor the Spanish governments were dropping bombs on Dublin or San Sebastian either. The latest ceasefire ended when the Israel bombed and killed 6 people in early December, an act set up to precipate this response to allow cover for the current action which are basically to give the current coalition a shot of maintaining control after the election they were about to lose.
Israel stole their land, locked them in desolation, control their movement, bomb them continually, failed to meet your agreed obligations under international treaty and UN resolutions. You fail to even give back the extra land you stole in 1967 offering 91% of it in staged amounts as long as the you get the airspace and are able to put military bases where ever you like.
And you've let on average 3 truckloads of humanitarian supplies a day in December when there's 1.5 million people to feed, very big of you.
You act like Israel has never done anything wrong and the big bad terrorists are cause of everything...need I remind you how Israel was founded? Hotel bombings and civilian massacres where ok back then I take it.