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Old 04-22-2003, 09:06 PM   #1
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USA needs a makeover!!!!!!

First, we must listen to our allies. Because of America's economic, cultural and military predominance, America must lead. But, we must lead by listening and by example. When we disagree with our allies, we must explain why and how we are seeking to achieve our goals in a manner respectful to our allies. Such an approach would serve in stark contrast to our rapid withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol on the greenhouse gas emissions and other actions. As powerful as we are, we still rely heavily on our allies to address the biggest threats to our nation - global disease, terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction among them.

Second, we must take imaginative steps to better address the scourge of AIDS and other communicable diseases that threaten global populations. The president's announcement of additional funds for AIDS in the State of the Union address was a step in this direction, but more needs to be done. Jeffrey Sachs, director of

Columbia University's Earth Institute, has estimated that $20 billion is needed per year to successfully combat HIV and other infectious diseases in Africa. We must think in these types of numbers, matched by the types of committed attention we are now focusing on Iraq.

Third, we must reinvigorate the global system for poverty alleviation. Poverty is today greater in Africa than it was 30 years ago. There are no easy solutions to this problem, but it will certainly not be addressed without consistent, long- term, high-level focus backed by sufficient resources.

Finally, we should take consistent, meaningful steps to promote democracy where it does not exist, including among our allies. Democracy is risky and unpredictable, particularly in transitional societies, but over time, promoting real democracy will be our best investment in a more secure future. Citizens with democratic outlets are more likely to become street protesters than terrorists.

Taken from this article:

http://www.cfr.org/bio.php?id=1786
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Old 04-22-2003, 11:52 PM   #2
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20 Billion per year is a lot less than what Bush is offering.
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Old 04-23-2003, 12:55 AM   #3
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The USA has been doing an excellent job in many of these area's. It is incredible the number of new democracy's that exist today in the world compared to the number there were in 1988.

I think Colin Powel does an excellent job at explaining US foreign policy to our Allies. The USA cannot be faulted for the obvious failings of many of our Allies.
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Old 04-23-2003, 03:05 AM   #4
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Hello,

I agree that Powell is doing his best in explaining the policy. Unfortunately, there are others who are much less eloquent and resort to leading by power (or by insult).

Quote:
As powerful as we are, we still rely heavily on our allies to address the biggest threats to our nation - global disease, terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction among them.
Yes, the USA is the most powerful country on earth. However, it is not more powerful than all other countries combined. I sometimes have the feeling the USA forgets this. No matter how powerful it is, they do need the support from other countries to survive and prosper. And there'll always be situations where countries disagree, but by ruthlessly promoting/pushing its own view the support from other countries may vanish fast.

Quote:
Finally, we should take consistent, meaningful steps to promote democracy where it does not exist, including among our allies. Democracy is risky and unpredictable, particularly in transitional societies, but over time, promoting real democracy will be our best investment in a more secure future. Citizens with democratic outlets are more likely to become street protesters than terrorists.
I also totally agree with this. Too often I get the feeling that the USA is not promoting democracy among its 'allies' (between quotes because I doubt how much some countries the USA calls allies really have friendly feelings for the USA), but only wants to use its regime for its own short-term goals. As the quote says, promoting/securing real democracy decreases the chance of terrorist attacks (with people more resorting to street protests). This may be the primary value the US government needs to promote among its 'allies', even before all its other values.

C ya!

Marty

P.S. Sting, what are the "obvious failings of many of our Allies"?
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Old 04-23-2003, 04:41 AM   #5
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Popmartjin,

The USA was supported by 40 countries in its overthrow of the Iraqi regime which will allow democracy the chance to bloom in Iraq, unlike the European proposal that would maintain one of the worst dictatorships in history indefinitely. The USA can claim more true allies than any other single country on the planet.
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Old 04-23-2003, 04:55 AM   #6
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Sting:

out of the 40 countries who supported you only G.B. and in a much minor role Australia really supported you. Many other countries were unwilling to do more than to talk about support of the US. They only did talk about it because of political presure from your country.
So it was mainly the former british empire (sidenote: who controlled Iraq before Worldwar I too) who started the invasion or liberation.

Numerous long-term allies criticized the U.S. verry harsh for what they have done.
Also it was wrong what the U.S. did dosn't mean that there were no positive effects (Saddam dosn't control this country anymore)

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Old 04-23-2003, 05:40 AM   #7
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Klaus,

Ah Yes, if 40 countries support, you must of had to preasure them. Please produce the undisputed evidence that any of these countries were preasured in any way more, than the countries Germany, France and others tried to gain the support of!

The reason most of the countries simply talked and offered other non-military support is because they were not needed from a military standpoint.

The USA was justified under international law for its actions per Resolution 678, 687, and 1441, all of which authorized the military action that took place.

In addition US military action was justified simply by self-defense, of the USA, the region, and any Iraqi who was being tortured or oppressed by Saddam Hussien.

French and German proposals were weak and would never of ensured that Saddam was disarmed. The only way to disarm a dictator with a large military who is unwilling to disarm is by military force! Also, French and German proposals would have left Saddam in power indefinitely leading to the murder and of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's through torture and the denial of humanitarian supplies by the Saddam regime.

Europe need to regroup and and rethink much of their foreign policy idea's. Their idea's failed in Bosnia and Kosovo, both which the USA solved for the Europeans. Their idea's for Iraq were simply a repitition of past failures, and would of consigned the Iraqi people to continued rule by a man who had already murdered more than a million of them through various means.

As more time passes, it will sink in more deeply how correct the Bush policy was, although it will be a difficult pill to swallow for some Europeans of course.
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Old 04-23-2003, 05:57 AM   #8
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Sting: the foreign ministers of these countries asked the US (and france also) to stop the presure, with Turkey and Mexico you have 2 big examples how US tried to 1st pay for political support and then later they tried to threaten them.

US was not legitimated to start that invasion.
You are right, the text inside the resolutions were fuzzy. But the countries who signed that resolutions said that this should be not missunderstood as a legitimation to start an invasion.
If you are unsure what a law means you have to look for the intension of the ones who created the law and i think we should read resolutions in the same way.

Self defense?
Did i miss something here? did we find weapons which made it possible for Iraq to attack the US?

It's noble to stop torture of opressed people, but it's imho cynical to use them as an excuse to start a war. There were many US allies (and there still are..) who don't treat their people better than Saddam does.

The most brutal things Saddam did were in a time where he was fully protected by US and the rest of the western world. (look at the mass graves the troops found, all of them are from times were Iraq was an US ally.

Let's see if someone less biased then american special forces can find evidence for the WMDs and the weapons of the Iraqis which were such a great threat to mankind that this war can be called legitime.

It's hard to trust a US government which faked so many facts to get support of the UN, most US critic people wouldn't trust that the WMDs US inspectors might find were there before US inspectors were at that place

That's one of the reasons why i'd prefer Blix to do his job again.

Klaus
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Old 04-23-2003, 08:41 AM   #9
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Re: USA needs a makeover!!!!!!

Good article, Dreadsox - I agree with the overall sentiments of it, but there are a few points I'm less convinced by.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
When we disagree with our allies, we must explain why and how we are seeking to achieve our goals in a manner respectful to our allies.


I think perhaps it would be better if the US were more open to considering the opinions of other countries. This article seems to imply it would have been okay to withdraw from the Kyoto protocol if it had just been explained more clearly to its allies. However, I think that given that almost every other country in the world supported Kyoto, the United States had a responsibility to the rest of the world to support it. I don't think it's enough to say "we're going to explain more clearly to our allies when we disagree" - there needs to be a recognition that sometimes other countries will be right and the US wrong, and the US shouldn't dismiss other countries concerns, no matter how nice it is about explaining it.


Quote:
Second, we must take imaginative steps to better address the scourge of AIDS and other communicable diseases that threaten global populations. The president's announcement of additional funds for AIDS in the State of the Union address was a step in this direction, but more needs to be done.


Absolutely right! Yes, more needs to be done on this subject, and I do hope that the money promised in the State of the Union goes to those organisations which need it and not to only those groups which are acceptable to the extreme right in US politics. (I'm sorry for being critical here, I don't want to imply that I'm not delighted that Bush promised so much money for fighting AIDS/HIV, but it is a huge concern to me that the money might not go to those organisations which need it most.)
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Old 04-23-2003, 08:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
As more time passes, it will sink in more deeply how correct the Bush policy was, although it will be a difficult pill to swallow for some Europeans of course.
STING, I don't mean to be rude, but I think that's a very arrogant attitude. The opinions of European countries can't be disregarded - they represent hundreds of millions of people and have a significant influence in the world.

And it has not been proven that Bush's policy was correct - I'm of the opinion that we need to wait and see what happens in Iraq before declaring Bush's policy a huge success. Let's wait and see if the Iraqis are able to choose their own government or if they will end up living under occupation for a significant length of time. The US said this war was to bring democracy to Iraq and I don't believe that the mere absence of Saddam Hussein means that Iraq has become a democratic country.

In addition, I find the doctrine of pre-emptive attacks which Bush's policy on Iraq represents to be extremely worrying and definitely not something which European countries ought to accept. I think this doctrine could lead to some frightening developments, for instance attacks on countries such as Syria, Iran or North Korea.
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Old 04-23-2003, 08:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Popmartjin,

The USA was supported by 40 countries in its overthrow of the Iraqi regime which will allow democracy the chance to bloom in Iraq, unlike the European proposal that would maintain one of the worst dictatorships in history indefinitely. The USA can claim more true allies than any other single country on the planet.
As a conservative, and a person who follows the news, I find it troubling that this has all of a sudden become the MAIN reason went into IRAQ.

This was NOT the true reason. I find it laughable that some in the media and our governement are TRYING to shift from the fact that war was about WMD and violations of UN Resolutions. HOw many times, have I seen this president say that the US Military should not be used for nation building? I can find quotes in Woodwards book which covers after 9-11.

When the WMD are found I will celebrate the fact that MAYBE there will be a democracy there. The problem is, if we allow the Iraqi's to form a "democracy" will it be a country that will be happy with the US or not. But that is another issue all together.


Fizzing,

I do not think that the US has to join into any treaty that does not suit its interests. I have not studied the Kyoto Treaty, so I will not speak to it specifically. I will say this, that I believe Collin Powell has failed as a Secretary of State. What accomplishements can he claim to have achieved in his tenure as Secretary of State. I also believe that this President, has been getting advice from people who think that we can do whatever we want, because we are the USA (Pearle, Wolfowitz, Armitage).

The author is saying that we need to communicate better with our allies. He is not saying we need to move in whatever direction the allies want us to. He is also not saying we do not have allies. I think he is pointing to the fact that during the past few years since 9-11 we have lost a lot of the goodwill the world felt towards our country.

I cut this part out of the article, because I did not want it moved to war as it spoke about 9-11. The four points above where most important, but you may enjoy reading the rest of it.

I think this person hits it on the head, that battling poverty and working to give people a voice in their own country, will allow them to vent their frustrations rather than turn to terrorism. Isn't that ultimately what the war on terror is about.?
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Old 04-23-2003, 09:03 AM   #12
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The four points are about the FUTURE not the past.......

Can we please move beyond IRAQ and look at the four points of the article. Thanks.

Third, we must reinvigorate the global system for poverty alleviation. Poverty is today greater in Africa than it was 30 years ago. There are no easy solutions to this problem, but it will certainly not be addressed without consistent, long- term, high-level focus backed by sufficient resources.
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Old 04-23-2003, 09:23 AM   #13
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Dreadsox:

back to your article...

first: yes, good point, because without listening and explaining yourself no other country can be a longterm partner of the superpower.

second: imho destruction of nature (CO2 emissions, lack of Water)is about the same quality of danger than AIDS,future wars because of water don't seem impossible for me.
And the presure of 3rd world countries against the rich noth might increase dramatically when they don't have enough water to grow food or not even enough clean water to drink.

Imho the money is here and it's not the mayor problem in fighting AIDS & Co (just take a look how much money we can spend for other things), the problem is that most nations only spend money for humanitarian stuff when big national companies (which spend some money to the politicans) can profit from it.
So most of the time it's subventions in the coat of humanitarian reasons.

overall a article worth reading, thanks for posting it!

Klaus
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Old 04-23-2003, 11:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
The USA cannot be faulted for the obvious failings of many of our Allies.
Yes we are free of fault. Your humbleness is so refreshing.
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Old 04-23-2003, 12:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


STING, I don't mean to be rude, but I think that's a very arrogant attitude. The opinions of European countries can't be disregarded - they represent hundreds of millions of people and have a significant influence in the world.

And it has not been proven that Bush's policy was correct - I'm of the opinion that we need to wait and see what happens in Iraq before declaring Bush's policy a huge success. Let's wait and see if the Iraqis are able to choose their own government or if they will end up living under occupation for a significant length of time. The US said this war was to bring democracy to Iraq and I don't believe that the mere absence of Saddam Hussein means that Iraq has become a democratic country.

In addition, I find the doctrine of pre-emptive attacks which Bush's policy on Iraq represents to be extremely worrying and definitely not something which European countries ought to accept. I think this doctrine could lead to some frightening developments, for instance attacks on countries such as Syria, Iran or North Korea.

I agree, Fizz. First of all I think the opinions of the European allies--and yes, they are allies--are important. It's bad for us and bad for the world as a whole when the U.S. says "to hell with France and anyone else who disagrees with us". France would like to work with the U.S. and others in working out the disagreement over the Iraqi sanctions. I think they should go ahead and lift the sanctions because the Iraqis need $$ for health care and other services. I do *not* believe this because my government wants it. It needs to be worked out and we need the Europeans to do it.
Also it's too early to call Bush's Iraq plan successful. It will be successful only when there is a democratic state apparatus in Iraq. I understand that it will take time to set this up, but it's crucial. There are different people in the country with differing political and religious opinions. There are the Kurds, the Shi'ite Moslems, the Sunni Moslems and these don't always get along with each other. Meanwhile, until the democratic state apparatus is functioning and there are elections scheduled and such, it's premature to call the Bush initiative a "success". They're not finished with it yet. We need to see the results. They're not there yet. It's not enough to win the war in the military sense, we've also got to win a political war. In my opinion there have been screw-ups in the political war. We can't afford too many screw-ups or we'll totally alienate the Iraqi people and that will kill the whole thing. I don't mean to re-hash the antiquities controversy but I read in the press where they now have security at the museums. I think they decided that they need to do this for political reasons, not military reasons. Winning the political war is an emotional thing, not a logical thing. It will be tough, possibly rather messy, stuff.
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