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Old 02-11-2017, 10:51 AM   #196
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What Anitram said is pretty spot on. I think you're being dismissive to the idea that people FEEL differently than you. You're speaking in large generalizations because, as you eventually point out, you just don't like him.

I'm from Indiana, I did not live under him as governor, but I saw an awful lot about what he was doing, and maybe people don't remember too well, but Ohio was floundering from moving too far, too fast on social programs, and Kasich fixed it.

From my personal research, because believe it or not, I didn't just listen to his rhetoric(!), he definitely had viewpoints I disagreed with, but I overall trusted him to find a decent middle ground, should the unthinkable (at that point) have happened and Hillary lost the election. Additionally, I WOULD have voted for him over Bernie, should the option have presented itself, because he was not an extreme. We go round and round with this Trump vs Bernie two sides of a coin thing, but let me be clear, if Bernie have won, I would have been OK with that, I'd have just expected us to be pretty hurt financially by the end of his term, hence my feeling that Kasich was a decent middle option.

All of which is to say, when you're talking about feelings and you're dealing with moderates, to assume that we all just liked what we heard from Kasich and did zero research is dismissive and a huge turn off to your cause. That was my point. When you come off as aggressively as someone like Oregoropa, you're only pushing away the people you actually need to convince to come out and vote.
What policies are you referring to? I'm genuinely curious.

Everything in my experience has been people citing him as a centrist baselessly. And as you might imagine, I'm somewhat engaged politically, so it's not totally anecdotal.

And I'm not going to touch on the Sanders thing, we've had it out, you and I clearly disagree on economics. Which is fine! That is a reasonable debate to have. My postulation has always been that a reasonable two sides in America would be a left that embraces democratic socialism and a right that embraces "American centrism" (right wing in other countries). Social issues are a moot point because those are simply issues of right and wrong.

I do not in any way view John Kasich as a centrist or moderate.
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Old 02-11-2017, 11:04 AM   #197
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But BVS, is there really a will for that from the right? Especially the far right? Do you believe they have the slightest interest in listening? Do you think their leaders have the slightest interest in encouraging such behaviour?

I've banged on about this before but, are we not witnessing the prelude of a broken USA. There are two nations here. Not sure geographically (although in a way there's that too) but in terms of ideals, dreams, aspirations.

Surely such a separation is more likely than your entirely reasonable but perhaps impossible suggestion of common sense?


No. The right has been there for awhile, and Trump took them to the extreme.

My point is that the left shouldn't become the isolationist that the right are, or we'll be defending lies, stop caring about facts, and just out shout everything we disagree about.
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Old 02-11-2017, 11:24 AM   #198
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Even the Dominicans are trolling Trump:

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Old 02-11-2017, 11:58 AM   #199
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So the guy surrounded by tremendous brains, is just now figuring out what the rest of us have known for decades, that the wall will cost us too much. But don't fret he'll negotiate(and stiff, and cut corners) and bring the cost down.


Oh, and Mexico still won't pay for it.
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Old 02-11-2017, 12:37 PM   #200
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Welp, buckle up for another weekend in our fun new world.

ICE going door to door asking for papers.

Rumors that Flynn might be out.

Rumors that WH is looking for a new press secretary.

No first lady or even Mrs Pence around to escort the Japanese PM's wife around DC during their official visit. (Not a scary thing, just another example of What Happens When You Have No Idea What You Are Doing And You Fired Anyone Who Might Have Helpful Tips On How To President.)
Please don't take Shouty Spice away from me
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Old 02-11-2017, 03:04 PM   #201
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That is disturbing. From the comments section of that article, I believe this is it, in a nutshell:

"This is what happens when a population becomes generations removed from fights against actual tyranny and fascism. They forget. They become indulgent, complacent. This is a philosophy that exists only because of the freedom provided by generations past who did not take for granted what these gents do. Scary times."
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Old 02-11-2017, 07:29 PM   #202
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Congratulations, America. People are losing their fingers from frostbite because they're walking extreme distances to cross over into Canada. People are fleeing the United States. You're no longer that shining city on a hill.
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:15 PM   #203
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I saw a thing on the news earlier about the ICE raids, and they had clips from people who were afraid they or their families could be targeted by these raids.

I really don't get people who think this is the right way to handle our immigration situation. How is scaring the shit out of people and tearing families apart a good thing for society?
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:06 PM   #204
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All great dictators and authoritarian governments have to strike fear in the people. This is all playbook.

Thanks Trumpets. You will forever be on the wrong side of history.
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Old 02-12-2017, 07:23 AM   #205
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They are literally going door to door.

Fox News actually stated that 75% of those arrested had criminal records as of that was a justification for the arrest of the other 25%.

1 in 4 of those arrested didn't do anything other than open the door... but hey, just a small side effect to making America great again.
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Old 02-12-2017, 08:37 AM   #206
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"Pro life"

http://m.wmctv.com/wmctv/db_401748/c...66S48.facebook
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Old 02-12-2017, 08:55 AM   #207
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What?

I mean... What? Why would this even be an issue? Oh, right. Jesus said so.

You fucks are worried about religious extremism coming to the United States?

IT'S ALREADY HERE.
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:15 AM   #208
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What?

I mean... What? Why would this even be an issue? Oh, right. Jesus said so.

You fucks are worried about religious extremism coming to the United States?

IT'S ALREADY HERE.
It's so insane I can't even really get my brain to acknowledge it as a real thing.
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What policies are you referring to? I'm genuinely curious.

Everything in my experience has been people citing him as a centrist baselessly. And as you might imagine, I'm somewhat engaged politically, so it's not totally anecdotal.

And I'm not going to touch on the Sanders thing, we've had it out, you and I clearly disagree on economics. Which is fine! That is a reasonable debate to have. My postulation has always been that a reasonable two sides in America would be a left that embraces democratic socialism and a right that embraces "American centrism" (right wing in other countries). Social issues are a moot point because those are simply issues of right and wrong.

I do not in any way view John Kasich as a centrist or moderate.
First, this is one of the things I'm trying to point out to you (and may have done so poorly, and if so I certainly apologize. I know excuses are for nothing, but I did work about 80 hours last week, and I may have been coming off more aggressively than intended.) : I think your heart is absolutely in the right place, and I know that you care and want change, but like Vlad, you're trying to put text book definitions onto the American political system, which just doesn't work. In reality, no, Kasich is not a centrist. In America? He is. And I realize you want that to change, that you want America to be a place where the far left is seen as normal, like in a lot of the rest of the Western world, but to get to that point, I don't think you help when your rhetoric can occasionally come off as, 'burn it down and Fuck anyone who doesn't agree!' (exaggerating). You have a vision, and that's great. It's just not everyone else's vision, especially in a country that tries to prize itself as being a democracy. To that point: obviously we're failing in that regard right now, to give the people what they want, and the only cure for that is my big three: Reevaluation of the EC, an end to Gerrymandering and Publicly funded elections. So for that reason, I'm always going to vote D or 3rd party until someone fixes it. I have no faith that the Reps will, so most of my saying, 'I'd vote for [insert Republican here] is bullshit and I know it inside. I just try so hard to listen to both sides, but in the end I have an issue that's so important to me, I'd put away almost any of my other beliefs to vote for. Which of course makes me sound like a hypocrite for being angry with Trump voters, but in my defense, I'm a human being. I also feel the size and scope of the issue I am passionate about is so overarchingly important to the future of our country, I feel excused in finding it more important than how one feels about someone else's decision to have an abortion.

As to Kasich, I preface by saying, I don't want to continue to live in the past of this election cycle. As much as I'm tired of hearing, Bernie was cheated, or Hillary messed up by blank, at the end of the day it no longer matters and is over. Hopefully the DNC watched and learned. Well find out next year.

Now to answer your question: Kasich's economic plan, while showing some similarities to Trump's, shows some signs of reform I can get behind. Parsing some government programs down and reshifting, a Reevaluation of the tax code, a focus on balance, etc. I don't like his willingness to increase military spending, but I have already stated, I trust the guy economically, so I'd be more willing to wait and see how his policies would work out.

On education, he and I see pretty much eye to eye, and this is another hot button issue for me, just not to that level.

On women's health care, this is where you and I bumped heads before. Yes, he defunded planned parenthood in Ohio. He also filled the gaps in alternative options for the other important health services that PP provides for women. The reason I think we need to move away from PP isn't because I'm prolife, but because I think liberals and PP have done more harm than good by making the issue so thoroughly about abortions and not being as vocal about what else Planned Parenthood has to offer. There's no fixing the image there and as a result it might be better to replace it. I also don't hate the idea of letting states find their own way of handling it, along as there are guidelines such an organization is to observe. He also put his money where his mouth is on being pro-LIFE and has done real good with the adoption process, which I respect.

I fucking hate his views on gun control. It's my biggest Kasich turn off and I also hate the rhetoric.

His rhetoric (yes, yes, you're right there, I do appreciate his rhetoric) on Healthcare seems promising and I LOVE his focus on preventative care rather than reactionary. With guidance he could have a decent alternative to the problem of health in America, and fixing the problem at the root (the health care system is greedy as hell) is a path worth pursuing.

I don't like his plans to increase military spending, as I said, but his plans i/r/t national security seem far more promising than anything else I've heard from the right: be stronger allies, stand up to Russia (hahahah), focusing on the war of ideas and actually talking positively about refugees and this quote from his site is so refreshing in the wake of what we got, even if it's probably half bullshit

Quote:
RECOMMIT OURSELVES TO OUR FUNDAMENTAL VALUES: By using public diplomacy to spread the ideas that are foundational to our own freedom and prosperity, the U.S. can play a critical role in making the world more stable. We must rededicate ourselves to the values that underpin and unite the Western world: democracy, a respect for individual and civil liberties, a respect for human rights, a belief in the equality of men and women, and a tolerance of different worldviews and religious beliefs. We must develop new strategies for fighting the war of ideas over the Internet, social media, and video, as well as the traditional tools of television, radio, and satellite. At the same time we must also develop stronger measures to combat jihadist efforts to recruit and spread their message via the Internet.
He also approves of the Keystone pipeline. The way it is now, I don't. We don't agree there at all. But he's also open to researching new goals for energy production, focusing on clean energy (because he cares about climate change, holy shit I still can't believe we ended up with Trump good God.) and exploring a happy medium with regulations vs production to allow innovation to grow. I'm OK with that. So mostly I like his energy policies. I don't know how he feels about fraking which is a biggie no for me, I'm sure he's all for it, so we're a miss there, but again, we're talking by and large, and understanding he was not my first pick, this is a hypothetical.

Finally, building off the last point, he really does seem to care about innovation and pushing for technological growth, which is also pivotal in improving our world.

What else, I think those are the big ones. He and I don't agree on a lot, but overall, I'm OK with a lot of his smaller government plans, because he seems to have great support ideas in place to ensure the states can provide for their people on a smaller more personal scale, while also giving support and guidance necessary to make sure the people are taken care of.

The end. (I wrote all of this on my phone and wanted to kill something by the end)
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Old 02-12-2017, 12:01 PM   #209
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Right. Because if you have fertility issues, it's God's way of telling you you weren't meant to have children, regardless of your desires, so suck it up and obey (someone else's interpretation of) God's will.*


 
*I'm gonna take my mod hat off for a second to tell these smugly self-righteous, theocratic assholes to fuck right off. My wife and I have fertility issues, such that we most likely will never be able to procreate the old fashioned way. The only option for biological children is some form of artificial insemination (IVF or IUI). both IVF and IUI only have a roughly 40% chance of success. IVF is off the table due to religious concerns. It's a fucking painful process to have a strong desire to have children and realize that 1)you may never have your own biological children, 2)the medical processes to attempt to have biological children are very expensive and have a fairly high chance of not producing children (so now you've spent a ton of money and still get your hopes dashed) and 3)adoption is also a very expensive, lengthy process fraught with the possibility of heartbreak and dashed hopes (multi-year waits, birth parents deciding at the last minute to keep the baby).

There have been a lot of frustrating and grief filled moments along our journey, and several moments where we've either together or separately felt like just giving up altogether. That these smug assholes want to legislate their religious intolerance onto people already struggling with the cards they've been dealt, and taint the glimmer of hope of having their own children by declaring them illegitimate is insanely cruel, and deeply un-Christian.
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Old 02-12-2017, 12:21 PM   #210
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Yeah, this is definitely one of the stupidest ideas yet. So much for that "limited government" that the GOP just LOVES to claim they support.

I also love the insinuation that a child is only "legitimate" if they're brought into the family in a "traditional" way. 'Cause calling a child illegitimate isn't an insult to them and their family, and won't mess them up mentally and emotionally at all, apparently.

I echo bono_212's attitude about the GOP right now. When I say I can deal with people like Kasich, Rubio, or Jeb being president, it's in the "If I absolutely HAD to pick a Republican" sense. At least with some of the other GOP candidates who ran this past election, I would've known what to expect from them, it's easier to figure out how to deal with and fight whatever policies they put forth. And at least with them, I'm not scared of them having access to our nuclear codes, and I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't be firing every single person in the federal government who dared to try and stand up to or challenge them, the way Trump apparently wants to do. They also would be mature enough to not pick pathetic fights with every single person who mocks or challenges them. It says a lot about how sad our current situation is that the bar's been set that low, but it is what it is.

Personally speaking, though, that party is not getting my vote for the foreseeable future. Not so long as they continue on with their social conservatism nonsense and have their only economic policy continue to be tax cuts for the rich and trickle down economics. I'm also fed up with the fact that they can't seem to discuss immigration or welfare reform without stereotyping and insulting the people impacted by it. And so long as the GOP continues to bend over backwards to Trump's ridiculous actions and doesn't stand up to his crap, I'll be keeping that in mind come future elections, too.

If there ever is a Republican out there who doesn't get hung up on the social conservatism side of things, and who can come up with an economic policy that's reasonable and balanced, I'll hear them out, and maybe vote for them, depending on the situation. Political balance is a good thing when done right, and I don't want this country to lose that.
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