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View Poll Results: Should Turkey enter the EU?
Yes 11 47.83%
No 10 43.48%
I don't really care 2 8.70%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:05 AM   #16
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First off, financeguy, by that same criteria you should not sell yourself short and stop there, kick half of the EU out.

1) The legislation was not found to be 'unconstitutional'. It was found to be 'incompatible' (a different word to illegal, you will find) with the Human Rights Act by the House of Lords, but bear in mind that the very same legislation was passed by the House of Lords themselves, at some point! 'Incompatibility' is a word you often find in EU law, and it rarely amounts to illegality as an issue. Also, so what? Cases of illegality have never been cause to kick a state out, if that were the case, the EU would be nonexistant.

2) First off, assuming that you are from the school of thought that thinks that the war was illegal (as I am), it was illegal according to the UN, which has nothing to do with the EU and has nothing to do with the European Human Rights Act, which is in contention here. Even if you were undoubtedly correct, that is not a basis for kicking the UK out of the EU.

I am sorry, but stating that the UK is as bad as Turkey in terms of HR abuses sounds a bit too extreme for me. I don't think its a case of 'calling the kettle black', the United Kingdom has nothing on the scale of human rights abuses as Turkey's.

Ant.
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:07 AM   #17
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Indeed financeguy, lots of countries and people who object the entrance of Turkey to the EU are calling the cettle black.
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:13 AM   #18
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I'm for it. I should point out, however, that as a non-European it's not really any of my damn business so I haven't given the matter a heck of alot of thought. I've read about this quite a bit, and I admit it's been all from the Turkish point of view. I agree that Turkey's human rights record sucks. People have been arrested there for speaking Kurdish and praising mosques in poems because of the government's nationalist and secular orientation, and that's not all. They're making progress in the human rights area, though, because they want in the EU. Having this goal is definitely good for Turkey. I guess the key question is this: is it good for Europe? That I can't say. Perhaps not. But basically I like the idea. I like the idea of different cultures getting together to work for peace and human rights. Maybe I'm naive, maybe the whole thing is driven by economics and it's not good economics or whatever.
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:14 AM   #19
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I believe in striving for a stronger EU and that's why I support Turkey joining
I also think that we have a better chance of Turkey doing something about the topics as mentioned by Dr Teeth ("human rights, seperation of church and state and the role of the arm") when they are part of the Eu instead of relative outsiders

in the end I don't have enough knowledge on this topic to warrant an opinion
but I will still vote yes
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:14 AM   #20
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Turkey, ham...either would be good, it's just that I've never tasted an EU. Is it anything like Irish stew?
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:15 AM   #21
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verte76 - you probably know more about Turkey than I do, seeing as you're the expert! What do you think Turkey has to do with Europe? Do you find that there are cultural/social links?

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Old 12-21-2004, 06:17 AM   #22
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Salome; do you think that Turkey would make the EU stronger, or become an economic burden, as a few countries have shown to be?


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Old 12-21-2004, 06:25 AM   #23
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personally I think that even the countries that appear to be a burden now will end up making the EU stronger
if we're ever truly willing to function as a unit

I don't think Turkey will proof to be much of a burden anyway
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:33 AM   #24
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I'm not Salome or Verte but I'll give all these things a shot.

On the subject of human rights, it should be noted that the situation in Turkey has drastically improved because of the prospect of a EU membership. While the human rights situation still isn't near (official) EU standards, human rights organisations were practically begging for the EU to start negotiations.

On the subject of the economy, it's a give and take situation. The young Turkish population will prove to be very usefull in an aging EU and the growing Turkish economy will be a playground for foreign investors. I think the EU should also be used to spread our wealth to other countries.

At first it would be a big investment but in the long run the european economy would benefit. Of course the EU's agri-cultural would have to reform if we want to be able to afford all of this, but that's long overdue anyway. Maybe this will be the final kick in the ass the EU agri-cultural ministers to get their act together.

I think it's rather amusing to see people bring up the cultural and geographical differences. This never used to be a issue prior to 9-11. Personally I think the fact that a part of Turkey is on the European continent is reason enough to let them in. I do not understand doom scenarios like having no reason to keep countries like Morrocco out of the EU.
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:36 AM   #25
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Anthony, I don't actually think Britain should be kicked out the EU, I was just using some hyperbole to show up what I see is a kind of hypocrisy among some of the EU leaders who are against Turkey being admitted.

P.S. Just in case my post came out wrong, for the record I am not anti-British, my grandmother was English.
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Old 12-21-2004, 07:15 AM   #26
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The way I see it, Turkey is trying to be friends with other countries, not separate themselves, as is the case with other predominately Muslim countries. The Turks are reaching out and working with the European powers on their human rights laws and have made some great improvements, including the abolition of capital punishment. The present prime minister, Tayyep Erdogan, was the guy who was arrested for writing a poem in which the line "the mosques are our strongholds" or something like that appeared, angering the secular state authorities. Needless to say he has pretty negative views on arresting people for putting stuff like that in a poem! The Turks lack the hostility towards modernism of some of their neighbors. If Turkey was accepted into the EU it'd be harder for the extremist Muslims to say that the West is inherently hostile towards Islamic countries. The present Turkish government has a stronger Islamic influence in it than other Turkish governments in the past, what with their heavy duty emphasis on it being a secular state. It'd be great if a historically Muslim culture worked with historically Christian cultures to promote human rights and dignity. I think it's worth a try, anyway.
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Old 12-21-2004, 07:58 AM   #27
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Thanks financeguy, and I apologise if I did misinterpret your quote - I didn't know whether to read the comment at face value or not. Apologies!

Ant.
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Old 12-21-2004, 08:15 AM   #28
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i'm really fascinated by the whole EU project, and think that, generally speaking, the more inculsive it can be, so much the better. i also think this is a good bone to throw -- so to speak -- to the Muslim world, a visible way to reduce the whole "west vs. islam" paradigm that's set hold since the Iraq War. i really can't speak too much to the economic issues, since i don't feel qualified to pontificate, but it seems to be EU membership is a very powerful carrot to get an Islamic society to fully modernize. the big failure with Islam, as it is currently practiced in many countries, is that it has not adopted well to modernity. this would give Turkey a chance to show the world that the two -- Islam and modernity -- are not incompatible.

what interests me most, as always, is what this then does to European identity. having spent lots of time in Europe, i was fascinated at just how strong the sense of culture is over there (or maybe it was just because i was an outsider ... who knows? but this was my observation). as opposed to Americans or Canadians, where culture is very much an ADD-inducing hyperactive DIY blend, there seems to be a clear sense of what makes something "French" or "German" or "Italian." what would a massive influx of young turks do to this? would we see a new kind of European -- or would we see retreating into ethnic certainties and right wing chauvinism?
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Old 12-21-2004, 08:33 AM   #29
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I don't think there's a European identity yet, the EU isn't yet something people feel close to. I'm sure a European identity will develop somewhere in the next 20-30 years. It would be best if Turkey joined as early as possible the reduce a possible clash of cultures. Even though I have to say, I think people are making to much of these cultural differences.
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Old 12-21-2004, 09:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
Even though I have to say, I think people are making to much of these cultural differences.

i totally agree. one thing that struck me as a bit odd in Europe --and i say this with all due respect -- was how important cultural differences were in Europe, even within the same country. Belgium, where i lived, is a perfect example: the Flemms and the Walloons. but, to an outsider with an outsider's perspective, there are so many things i could point to that most europeans seem to have in common, to focus on difference is naval gazing. of course there are differences from country to country, but if you dropped me off in any town in Europe i could probably find a hotel, the train station, a grocery store, and the town square without much effort.

i suppose i'm saying that one of the things a culturally intergrated EU must do is focus on the forest -- European-ness -- and forget the trees -- country-to-country differences. because, to most of the rest of the world, it's going to be the European identity, attitude, and philosophy that will be in political play, not the small variances between different countries (or, states).
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