parallels of europe before 1933 and now in 02 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-02-2002, 12:15 AM   #1
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Zoomerang96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: canada
Posts: 13,459
Local Time: 10:14 PM
parallels of europe before 1933 and now in 02

anyone smelling what im smelling?

the surge of le pen. the strong showing of heider... theres more, though im not as familiar with it.

correct me if im wrong, but isnt the netherlands also witnessing something of the sort?

at home in canada, in SASKATCHEWAN of all places, a synagogue (sp?) (i believe its that cities only synagogue) was burnt down, not naturally either may i add.

in france, supposedly over 300 acts of vandalism have taken place against jewish monuments or landmarks, all since israel invaded palestinean areas.

-----

this is a butcher thread, i really wanted to go in depth here but i dont feel like ill get the chance too before sunday (elections in france).

so i was blunt, and i didnt go into great detail. forgive me.

does anyone else sense a strong, strong push towards not just the right, but the extreme right?

does anyone believe le pen or heider are viable candidates?

can anyone here explain, in your own opinion as to why the far right is becoming so catchy in places that WERE in nazi control 60 years ago?

do people not learn?

thoughts?

------------------
-deathbear
__________________

__________________
Zoomerang96 is offline  
Old 05-02-2002, 01:43 AM   #2
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Lilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: back and to the left
Posts: 8,523
Local Time: 10:14 PM
NAZI Germany was a freak. Literally. I mean, a country once so prosperous brought to its knees because it lost a war. So that's not original. But the recession kept going and going with no relent. Hitler came into power because of eloquence, because he rallied the people together. The people of Germany were happy to be united and saw much promise in this man. I know there was a lot of propaganda, and I wonder how much truth was offered at the beginning, but the people believed what they were told, though the promises seemed to good to be true.

Calling Le Penne a Hitler-type is a bit of a stretch to me. Yes they are both crazy super right-wingers, but Le Penne isn't preaching about killing people in a genocidal rage is he? Le Penne is also a freak, produced from a multi-party system with lazy voters. Had more people turned out to vote, France would not be in the predicament it is in now.

As for people burning synagogues and whatnot, there's no excuse for that ever. But as with any decisive action taken by a government there will be a backlash. The intensity of such a backlash is determined by the intensity of the action the government takes and the control the people feel they have over the government.



------------------
Come on wisdom tooth, don't fail me now!
__________________

__________________
Lilly is offline  
Old 05-02-2002, 01:51 AM   #3
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 02:14 PM
I think it's a fair observation. Nazi Germany was freakish but only in its extremity. 'Fascist' ideas had a lot of currency in the West generally throughout the 1930s, more so than some would like to admit. The roots today are much the same: those who regard themselves as the meat in the sandwich between the poor (immigrants, unemployed et al) and big business. They are the natural constituency of the Le Pens, the Berlusconis, the Hitlers and Mussolinis.

And we live in a corporate age. And a lot of poor wretched souls are on the move. So, yes I am smelling what you're smelling.


------------------
So will we die of shock
Die without a trial
Die on Good Friday
While holding each other tight
This is kind of about you
This is kind of about me
We just kind of lost our way
We were looking to be free

But one day
We'll float...
__________________
Kieran McConville is offline  
Old 05-02-2002, 02:04 AM   #4
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 02:14 PM
Oh, and for today's Europe, there is also the matter of the EU, which spells death for old-style European nationalism in any meaningful sense. Motherland vs. New World corporate occupation - it's an idea that Le Pen for one has milked. So have the British Tories. And 1920s & 30s Germany was itself somewhat of an occupied country - occupied by harsh war reparations after its defeat in 1918. You could go on all day, really. It's such a convoluted thing.

But it says a lot about how far right the world climate has moved, that the likes of Blair and Clinton were ever considered left-wing. You've gotta eat babies these days before they'll call you a rightwing loony...
__________________
Kieran McConville is offline  
Old 05-02-2002, 02:18 PM   #5
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomerang96:
correct me if im wrong, but isnt the netherlands also witnessing something of the sort?
not really
our legislation (esp. on issues such as economic refugees, the rights given to prisoners etc) are more liberal then in most other countries
at least more liberal then in countries surrounding us
no matter who will be elected we will move towards stricter legislation in those areas, because after years of trying differently there is no other way left to go unless all other countries change their policies

IMO the 80's were a more threatening time in that respect then the present

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
__________________
Salome is offline  
Old 05-02-2002, 06:00 PM   #6
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:14 PM
In my humble opinion, the "rise" of Le Pen is media-hype. France, in their ever activist nature, was upset over the administration of leftist Prime Minister Lionel Jospin, whom the left saw as being too conciliatory to the right (doesn't it remind you of a certain party in America currently?). So France, which usually resigns itself to the fact that the primaries will always be the same two parties, threw off the primary as a silent protest to Jospin. Well, obviously, such a tactic backfired, which, to me, would be the equivalent of Pat Buchanan taking second place to Al Gore in the 2000 election. Rest assured, I see a very easy landslide victory for Jacques Chirac, with Le Pen in a very dismal second.

In addition, you have to realize that France has a gigantic Arab community. I have a feeling a lot of this vandalism has occurred from this community, versus the native French. Regardless, how is this any less appalling than the treatment of Arabs in the United States since September 11th?

What is hurting Europe, methinks, is the collapse of the security of socialist-democratic Europe. Eastern Europe had seen a rise in extreme right support immediately upon the collapse of communism, with Western Europe seeing very little of it. Now that the global economy is still uncertain, combined with the very Western concern over Islamic terrorism, you have the breeding ground for fascism.

Overall, though, as I do see an increase in extremist sentiments in Europe, I have a feeling that the American media is hyping it, mostly to get back at Europe for accusing America of being extreme right for years.

Melon

------------------
"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 05-02-2002, 07:20 PM   #7
Refugee
 
Anthony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,538
Local Time: 04:14 AM
I don't think Le Pen's so called rise is anything to worry about, and I don't think there are any parallels between the now and the past.

What one must understand, is that the sudden surge of right-wing parties, whether it be Le Pen or that Fortune fellow from some country (I forget, maybe its Holland - but this homosexual bald fellow is as rascist as he is fascist), is due to the fall of Socialist Democratic parties, and the fall of Socialist Democratic parties is largely due to extremely weak leadership, outdated policies and extinct blood. I fear that my Labour in Britain will grow weak, if Tony Blair continues his weak leadership.

What is needed in left of centre politics is conviction and strength, they have to believe in what they are saying; right now the only ones with enough conviction seem to be the right-wingers.

Ant.
__________________
Anthony is offline  
Old 05-02-2002, 07:21 PM   #8
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Zoomerang96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: canada
Posts: 13,459
Local Time: 10:14 PM
just thought id throw in what i read at cnn.com today

according to a poll, whether it was conducted by them or someone else, im not sure, but they said at this stage, it looked to be about 29% in favor of le pen.

for an extremist party that is very high, dont kid yourself.

in the original voting, at the end of april he recieved 17%, with the president recieving 20.

whats so alarming about 29% is that chances are these numbers are too low, for the main reason there are many embarrased people who will vote for him, but wont speak out loud about it.

trust me, this is a huge platform for him. not only is he getting equal coverage on television (to the second) with the president, but if we are to look ahead, this could gather some serious speed.

and another point.

there leader right now, doesnt appear to have any appeal, and does look like a knob. you throw in a man that has stockwell day or heider good looks, with bill clinton charm, and you could sell snow to a canadian.

the president isnt giving enough credit to his counterpart. he should be doing all he can to make sure le pen doesnt get it.

------------------
-deathbear
__________________
Zoomerang96 is offline  
Old 05-02-2002, 08:10 PM   #9
Refugee
 
what a bomb!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Winchester, England
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 04:14 AM



[This message has been edited by what a bomb! (edited 05-02-2002).]

[This message has been edited by what a bomb! (edited 05-02-2002).]
__________________
what a bomb! is offline  
Old 05-03-2002, 12:09 AM   #10
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Zoomerang96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: canada
Posts: 13,459
Local Time: 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by what a bomb!:

and what people forget about Hitler (I am not defending him!) is that he was getting rid of the Jews unknown to the German people... but they never knew what was going on behing the scenes.
i dont agree with this. everyone was terrorized by the nazis. EVERYONE.

ive been reading about this lots lately, and the scare tactics implemented first by the sa and then the ss were so horrible, people knew what was going on, but were frozen with fear to do anything about it.

and i think thats to be expected. theyre only human.

though they did vote him in.

------------------
-deathbear
__________________
Zoomerang96 is offline  
Old 05-03-2002, 12:34 AM   #11
Refugee
 
what a bomb!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Winchester, England
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 04:14 AM
I've retracted my post as I was a bit drunk when I posted it, then re-read it again after a couple of hours and decided I was talking crap!
__________________
what a bomb! is offline  
Old 05-03-2002, 12:40 AM   #12
Refugee
 
what a bomb!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Winchester, England
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 04:14 AM
i know what you are saying Zoom, obviously I didn't mean the whole population, and it seems hard to believe all that was going on and they didn't know? I read somewhere that kids in German schools, when they hear of their history, they have a hard time believing it!
__________________
what a bomb! is offline  
Old 05-03-2002, 02:55 AM   #13
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
I don't think Le Pen's so called rise is anything to worry about, and I don't think there are any parallels between the now and the past.

What one must understand, is that the sudden surge of right-wing parties, whether it be Le Pen or that Fortune fellow from some country (I forget, maybe its Holland - but this homosexual bald fellow is as rascist as he is fascist), is due to the fall of Socialist Democratic parties, and the fall of Socialist Democratic parties is largely due to extremely weak leadership, outdated policies and extinct blood. I fear that my Labour in Britain will grow weak, if Tony Blair continues his weak leadership.

What is needed in left of centre politics is conviction and strength, they have to believe in what they are saying; right now the only ones with enough conviction seem to be the right-wingers.

Ant.

I largely agree with Anthony's post here. It's not that there is a swing to extreme right in Europe right now due to racist feelings, but the left is losing due to bad politics. A couple of years ago it was remarked that Europe had many left governments, a trend that is now reversing.
But bad politics is the main source of unrest. For several years many citizens (in the Netherlands, but I think also in the rest of Europe) have a feeling that they are being neglected by the government. They feel that the government does not listen to their concerns. So now they are voting against the ruling governments, with most of the votes going to parties that give voice to their unrest.

I do want to nuance the statement made by Anthony regarding Dutch newcomer Pim Fortuyn. It's true that he's as racist as he's facist as he is neither of them. He is, however, a populist voicing the unrest many Dutch people have. A short profile of him by The Economist can be found here.

This article also tries to give some reasons for his sudden popularity, reasons I think may apply for more countries in Europe. Coincidentally, yesterday The Economist published a survey of the Netherlands, where they conclude that the Dutch (famous for their inclination to complain at everything) should not have much to complain about as the situation isn't that bad in the Netherlands, compared to other countries. The introduction to the survey (and a very short history of the Netherlands with regard to its culture to compromise) can be found here.
Of course, many Dutch will start to complain about the survey by The Economist (you cannot read the whole survey on their website unless you're a member, but I think I'm going to buy that issue; the Dutch also love to read how others think of them), but hey!, we're Dutch

Anyway, I don't think you can draw parallels between 1933 and now in Europe. Europe's swing to the right is just more prominent because many countries had quite a left government the last few years. And FWIW, many right (conservative) parties are still more leftist than what many Americans consider left (both Clinton and Gore were considered center or center-right politicians, not left).

C ya!

Marty



------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle
__________________
Popmartijn is offline  
Old 05-03-2002, 02:56 AM   #14
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Zoomerang96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: canada
Posts: 13,459
Local Time: 10:14 PM
what a bomb its not necessary for you to apologize, you didnt say anything wrong, i just didnt agree with it fully, thats all.

anyway, i have 2 cousins in germany who are in grades 4 and 6 i believe. they are not taught very much german history at all. i can see why, but at the same time, ignorance can lead to some ill-fated decisions from this generation, dont you think?

and you know what else? though im sure many people did know to an extent what was going on, im sure almost noone other than the people in charge, had any idea of just how terrible the situation really was.

when i was in a concentration camp, north of berlin (sachsenhausen) the bloody thing was in a residential zone! who'd want to live there?! these houses appeared to be old too, and the neighbourhood had existed since before the war, there is no question about that.

can you imagine the noise from that camp? how could you live with yourself if you lived there?!

------------------
-deathbear

[This message has been edited by Zoomerang96 (edited 05-02-2002).]
__________________
Zoomerang96 is offline  
Old 05-03-2002, 04:40 AM   #15
New Yorker
 
brettig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: heehee, ask george
Posts: 3,194
Local Time: 11:14 PM
Bear, never underestimate the power of the Nazi propaganda system...
__________________

__________________
brettig is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com