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Old 12-16-2005, 04:11 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i understand the distinction you're making, but both is happening here -- the legislature has made it a practice to practice one specific religion. a prayer performed by a legislative body that specifically mentions any diety -- such as Jesus, or Vishnu -- is a violation of the Establishment Clause. as i've laid out before, the government can, should, and does intervene whenever this part of the Constitution is violated as the Indiana Legislature has been doing for 188 years.

i'm just sorry it's taken so long.
The legislature has a custom of opening with prayer - nothing more. The custom is not established as Christianity.

To the extent the government intervened, it did so in the wrong way by stating which religion was "unapproved".
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:18 PM   #17
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The legislature has a custom of opening with prayer - nothing more. The custom is not established as Christianity.



oh, okay. can you point to me where they had Jewish prayers and Muslim prayers as well?



Quote:
To the extent the government intervened, it did so in the wrong way by stating which religion was "unapproved".

if other names had been mentioned, say Jesus and Thor, then two religions would have been unapproved. by implication, all specific religions are unapproved from this practice, though religion -- in the broad sense -- is approved and endorsed by the state. while this does reduce atheists and agnostics to 2nd class citizens, this does not violate the Establishment Clause, so i suppose that makes it okay (if distasteful and archaic, in my opinion). however, you'll note that the article mentions "any other denominational appeal" which seems to address specifically what you're talking about and prempts anyone who might see this as an opportunity to start with prayers to Shiva (though it doesn't seem as if any other religions wish to impose upon the Indiana Legislature their own practices). no, Christians aren't being targeted; it's anyone who wants the Legislature endorse their particular relgion.
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:30 PM   #18
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oh, okay. can you point to me where they had Jewish prayers and Muslim prayers as well?
Is the content of an opening prayer memorialized in the records of the legislature?

Conversely, can you point to any law, rule or regulation that states the opening prayer must be done in the name of Jesus?

I think you will find it is left to the individual choosen to conduct the invocation.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
if other names had been mentioned, say Jesus and Thor, then two religions would have been unapproved. by implication, all specific religions are unapproved from this practice, though religion -- in the broad sense -- is approved and endorsed by the state. while this does reduce atheists and agnostics to 2nd class citizens, this does not violate the Establishment Clause, so i suppose that makes it okay (if distasteful and archaic, in my opinion). however, you'll note that the article mentions "any other denominational appeal" which seems to address specifically what you're talking about and prempts anyone who might see this as an opportunity to start with prayers to Shiva (though it doesn't seem as if any other religions wish to impose upon the Indiana Legislature their own practices). no, Christians aren't being targeted; it's anyone who wants the Legislature endorse their particular relgion.
The case covers one name - Jesus Christ (in name, title or denominational appeal). It is a clear evaluation of content - a violation of the basic tenants of free speech and, as you've pointed out, an impermissible labeling of favored/unfavored religion.



I think we see each other's point - and have beaten this one up pretty well.
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Old 12-16-2005, 05:11 PM   #19
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I think we see each other's point - and have beaten this one up pretty well.


lots of interesting stuff to debate in your last post, but this being Friday afternoon, i'll concede to call it a day.

a very interesting, productive day.

thanks for the discussion.

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