An Open Forum

[nbcrusader]

Please give us your opinions on this. We mods are in a very tough place right now in FYM--moderate too little, and we're accused to allowing hatred and intolerance to flourish; moderate too much, and we're censorious despots. We need YOU to help us find a happy medium.

I warn you this may necessitate some of you growing thicker skins. That goes for EVERYONE.

I've been here about two years and find this a largely civilized forum. I believe the mods do an outstanding job of applying the forum rules evenly and fairly.

We will always have to deal with a variety of posting styles - some comments are dropped in like a grenade, others designed to derail the conversation. Overall, the members deal well enough with the variety.

Personal insults do cross the line and there are a number of levels of name calling. Again, overall we deal with it. Usually the name calling is called out and dealt with.

I find the claim that the moderators allow hatred or intolerance specious at best. There are numerous views that can be considered hateful or intolerant. Again, we deal with it.

Pax summed it up well - we will all need to grow thicker skins.

 

[A_Wanderer]

since we're living around the globe it could be REALLY difficult to get in touch with some people

Heh, tell me about it, right now its mid semester holidays but I am staying up to about 6:00am so I can get that rush of posts, its actually about 2 now.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

The only I fear about an "open" forum is that some might take that as "open season" to do anything they want. If someone gets offended and says so, they might say "I didn't attack you" and several of their friends will back them up. If you get into everything being "free" then there basically get to be no rules because we all have different opinions on what crosses the line and what is offensive. Someone may mean something as offensive, they say they didn't and try to make the person look stupid for complaining, when actually it was intentional. My best rule is, if someone says it offends them, then it offends them, and you can't apply your standards or personal feelings to that. If someone says they are offended, stop, or the person offended should be able to report the post and let the mods handle it together.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I dont know if vB allows such limitations on pm, but I will ask him. It could be handy but I dont believe it is possible. One thing which is rather nifty is the ability to email through this site. However you need to be premium to access a profile so perhaps we can look at adding an 'email' button to the bottom of everyone's posts next to the buddy icon.

vB wont allow partial bans for threads. it allows forum bans, so it would be all of FYM and War as a subforum (in relation to what A_Wanderer was suggesting).

One more thing, when I named this thread, I had 2 things in mind. One was to have an actual Open Forum (this precise discussion) on the forum itself; and also the idea of how you felt this was moderated - is it too heavy etc and do you all want less control. So it isn't all about loosening the moderating, it's also a play on words which could suit one possible way of making FYM a better place for all.

 

[Klaus]

Maybe the mods can convince Elvis to change pm to non-premium and instead "subscribing threads", or having the chance to place smilies in postings or anything similar to premium?

 

[iacrobat]

I think the Mods are in a very difficult position, especially because of the fact that they both participate in the discussions and have the power to close/control threads. That could be seen as a conflict of interest.

However, I think they do an absolutely fanstastic job given this situation. I used post on usenet groups years ago, but they were paralysing. Nothing was ever truly discussed the way it is in FYM. I don't think opening it up completely is a great idea.

I don't come around nearly enough to add much more. I have never really been personally attacked (or even picked up on a veiled attack, I can be a bit thick) or experienced to much of the "hate" that seems to have gone on. From what I have seen people who are hateful, racist, etc, don't last very long.

Though I do like Melon's comments on homophobia. I think that maybe he is 20 years ahead of his time, but it vital that he keep posting those types of comments here. That is the point isn't it?

 

[Angela Harlem]

The Premium facilities have largely been decided on what is most exhaustive to bandwidth. Pm's unfortunately take up a lot of room. Please keep suggesting though and we'll see what Elvis thinks.

Also please feel free to comment on the moderating if you have a problem. Or contact us privately if you don't feel comfortable doing it in the open here. Not that we don't love the positive feedback though

 

[anitram]

No offense, but I would not want people to MSN me or AIM me or anything like that to further discuss this. I know lots of people have 200 people on their MSN list, but I keep mine for friends and family and what's on the board stays on the board, IMO.

PMs are okay, e-mails to some cheap ass thing like Hotmail, okay, but anything beyond that would be asking for too much of an invasion of privacy, in my humble opinion, of course.

 

[LoveTown]

somebody said to me that email was an option...no it's not because you cannot access people's profiles if you arent a premium member. I can't even email the mods. And yeah, I don't feel like giving out my msn or icq to people either...especially to people who feel like they strongly disagree with something Ive said in here....it could lead to a nasty situation. The only solution I can think of is to allow non premium members to have PMs. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't restirct this forum so non premium members can't use it.

 

[Klaus]

Angela Harlem:

Your text ~400 bytes, your smiley ~200 bytes (the drool - smiley for example >500 bytes) your avatar ~2.000 bytes.
The complete list of smileys >80.000 bytes!

You see you can write a lot of pms if you're not allowed to use graphical smileys ;-)

 

[Salome]

I can't even email the mods.

every mod has their interference email adress in her/his signature


on topic
I'm glad that there seems to be a major concensus
but it does surprise me a bit since it's at least not uncommon for threads ending up in people being upset with each other over certain "points of view"

the mod team has no intent to play kindergarten teachers over FYM
we never have and we probably never will if only because we haven't got the time to do so

thicker skin will indeed be necessary since we're also not willing to let bickering have too big a place in FYM
the thing about thicker skin is that it will solely be up to the members to make FYM work and not the mod team

 

[Popmartijn]

Angela Harlem:

Your text ~400 bytes, your smiley ~200 bytes (the drool - smiley for example >500 bytes) your avatar ~2.000 bytes.
The complete list of smileys >80.000 bytes!

You see you can write a lot of pms if you're not allowed to use graphical smileys ;-)

Agreed (and don't forget graphical sigs). However, (derailing this thread even more to the Premium discussion of 18 months back) apart from cutting away these graphics for non-premium members, I'm still of the opinion that forums like FYM (and also Lemonade Stand) can be premium-only.
This is a U2 site/forum. As such, I think that all content directly related to U2 should be freely accessible for everyone (EYKIW, Musical Journey, PLEBA (even though that one is probably also heavy on bandwith due to the many pictures) EBTTRT, etc.). But Interference is also a community for some. What's wrong then with making the community-part largely premium? If U2 fans come here and like it here, they can become premium and have even more of the Interference community.
Of course, it'll mean some will go away, unfortunately. But those who will want to be part of the community, will become premium. And with a premium-only FYM, everyone will have the ability to send and receive PM's. Other suggestions will never work, because it's so easy to not use them without repercussions. Everyone can register and come in FYM without showing an email address, MSN name or whatever and they can post whatever they want.

Oh, and $10 still shouldn't be too much. It's one trip less to the cinema. Not going out to a bar will probably save you enough for a few years! And that DVD of Gigli, leave it behind in the store, use the $10 for Interference and don't even download it.

Bottom line, if you want to make sure that you can contact somebody outside the thread, then the forum will become premium-only.

C ya!

Marty

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I don't really have a lot to say on this subject, other than to say that I absolutely agree with melon's comments. I do find it frustrating that while threads which are overtly racist or anti-semitic will usually be locked, it seems that blatantly homophobic comments are allowed to remain. I don't buy the idea that someone should be allowed to make homophobic comments as long as they do so politely, it's the equivalent of saying it's acceptable to claim black people are inferior to white people just as long as you're polite about it.

I also agree with anitram and LoveTown - I would hate to have to give out my email address or AIM/ICQ/MSN names in order to post in this forum. I'm perhaps over sensitive to this subject because of having problems with someone sending me harrassing emails recently, but I think I'd rather give up posting here than be forced to give out my contact details to anyone who cares to know.

 

[melon]

First off, I don't want any of my comments construed to be a slam against the mods / admins. It is a very difficult position to be in, and I think they always do what they feel to be right. If we have disagreements, I always like to think that I write a respectful reply back to them.

With that, however, I think most of these "thick skin" advocates are, frankly, WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) types, who, also frankly, don't have one clue what it is like to be a minority in society. I did not come here to Interference to see a major part of me be put up for debate like it is some anthropological antiquity at a regular basis. And then, when I defend myself, I get PMed for being too abrasive to all you people. Well, what do you fucking expect? I'm supposed to just sit back and be more "thick skinned" to accomodate all the ignorant and bigoted homophobic comments in here, while *I* am supposed to be nice?!

I'm really, quite honestly, exhausted, after four years of writing "enlightening" comments about the issue. I'm glad to read that some people here have gotten something out of it all these years, but I'm just tired of repeating myself. I don't care if people think that Jesus hates gay people or if you think the leprechaun under your bed hates gay people either. I don't care! I have my reasons, and I also consider myself Christian. I also came from a liberal / radical Catholic background, meaning that my more scholarly approach to religion is inherent to my belief system. I have my reasons to living my life the way I do, and I did not come here to read nearly incessantly offensive comments. Like I said, if it is not okay to be offensive to women, to people of other races, or to Jews / Muslims, then it is NOT OKAY to be offensive to homosexuals. Period.

Other than this subject, I think that FYM has been moderated well. We have been very good at debating "impersonal" topics, like religion, politics, science, etc.--topics that do not go to the core of who we are. But when we start debating whether one class of people are inherently evil or not, then that's where I have problems, and I am across the board on this.

Maybe my reply here is a bit harsh, but this is what I see in here. For the most part, I think this forum is very well moderated.

Melon

 

[U2Kitten]

I know nobody will listen to me, but I have a question about this taking up space thing. Do PMs, considering most people don't even use them even if they are available, take up more room than all those old threads? I can see the site archiving U2 related threads for historical purposes, since this is a U2 site. But is it really necessary to save every single thread from things like IO and LS, many of which are not much more than chatroom chatter? They may be fun while they are going on, but the threads come and go so quickly, is it really worth the space and cost of saving all those old threads? If it were my board, I would delete all the stuff that was fun at the spur of the moment, but not worth saving if it costs the owners and the premium members. So, could we have PMs and trade off dumping old useless off topic threads more than 6 months old?

 

[melon]

It isn't space that's the problem. It's bandwidth that's the limiting factor in these large sites. Most of the old threads are rarely viewed, and, as such, take up little bandwidth. PMs, on the other hand, were likely used my many forum members and the bandwidth started to add up. In terms of images, emoticons don't take up much drive space, but if hundreds of people have to download them, then it takes up bandwidth.

In other words, dumping the old threads won't solve the problem.

Melon

 

[BostonAnne]

I don't really have a lot to say on this subject, other than to say that I absolutely agree with melon's comments. I do find it frustrating that while threads which are overtly racist or anti-semitic will usually be locked, it seems that blatantly homophobic comments are allowed to remain. I don't buy the idea that someone should be allowed to make homophobic comments as long as they do so politely, it's the equivalent of saying it's acceptable to claim black people are inferior to white people just as long as you're polite about it.

I agree with Melon's commments too.

 

[Salome]

at least a healthy part of the mod team also agrees with melon's comments

but what does that mean though?
that threads about homosexuality should be forbidden?
that we delete every post that appears to have homophobic content?

we have pretty much looked at this from every angle
and - like pointed out already - it always comes back to having to make a decision between "freedom of speech" and preventing prejudiced hatred

I think the mods are able to deal with both having an open forum and with stepping in to prevent things to get hostile
I guess this thread serves to establish some kind of concensus on what to do not only within the mod team but also within FYM

at some point choices will have to be made
and both members and mods will make these choices together

 

[Scarletwine]

Agreed (and don't forget graphical sigs). However, (derailing this thread even more to the Premium discussion of 18 months back) apart from cutting away these graphics for non-premium members, I'm still of the opinion that forums like FYM (and also Lemonade Stand) can be premium-only.
This is a U2 site/forum. As such, I think that all content directly related to U2 should be freely accessible for everyone (EYKIW, Musical Journey, PLEBA (even though that one is probably also heavy on bandwith due to the many pictures) EBTTRT, etc.). But Interference is also a community for some. What's wrong then with making the community-part largely premium? If U2 fans come here and like it here, they can become premium and have even more of the Interference community.
Of course, it'll mean some will go away, unfortunately. But those who will want to be part of the community, will become premium. And with a premium-only FYM, everyone will have the ability to send and receive PM's. Other suggestions will never work, because it's so easy to not use them without repercussions. Everyone can register and come in FYM without showing an email address, MSN name or whatever and they can post whatever they want.

Oh, and $10 still shouldn't be too much. It's one trip less to the cinema. Not going out to a bar will probably save you enough for a few years! And that DVD of Gigli, leave it behind in the store, use the $10 for Interference and don't even download it.

Bottom line, if you want to make sure that you can contact somebody outside the thread, then the forum will become premium-only.

C ya!

Marty

I have to say I disagree with the premium only status ( & I never disagree with Marty). But I think sometimes FYM get overly stagnant by the same posters, same ideology, same opinions. I'm not excluding myself in any way either. Fresh blood so to speak helps to invigorate discussion.

As to Kitty's claim that discussion never changes minds, I have to disagree. Many discussions we've had here in FYM have at least altered my perception of things or at least educated me on many issues.

edited to add
i think the mods so a super job in this forum.

 

[wolfeden]

I'm with Melon.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I would like this forum to be completely unmoderated unless extreme conditions.

Thread shouldnt be closed unless there is a consensus among atleast 3-4 moderators - However the right to ask for the closure of thread should be there.

And one should be free to raise eyebrows as well !!!

Ditto this post. I personally haven't really had any complaints with the mods and stuff, but yeah, I'm with AcrobatMan. Everybody should be free to say whatever is on their mind, and be prepared to deal with whatever comments may come their way as a result of what they've said. We all have to deal with that in the real world, where there aren't mods around to stop us, so I would think we should be able to deal with it online.

Also, in regards to the things melon is saying...yeah, if somebody makes a homophobic remark and melon responds rather harshly, well, that's to be expected. I know I'd certainly respond in a similar fashion if somebody made a negative comment about me.

Angela

 

[U2Kitten]

It isn't space that's the problem. It's bandwidth that's the limiting factor in these large sites. Most of the old threads are rarely viewed, and, as such, take up little bandwidth. PMs, on the other hand, were likely used my many forum members and the bandwidth started to add up. In terms of images, emoticons don't take up much drive space, but if hundreds of people have to download them, then it takes up bandwidth.

In other words, dumping the old threads won't solve the problem.

Melon

Okay, thanks for the info.

So that means that no bandwidth from the originating site is being used by all our hot pics on PLEBA if no one is currently viewing the thread?

 

[U2Kitten]

As to Kitty's claim that discussion never changes minds, I have to disagree. Many discussions we've had here in FYM have at least altered my perception of things or at least educated me on many issues.

Okay, I didn't know some people felt that way. It's just been my experience from other places on all different topics, even music, that it usually ends up hitting a brick wall of fights. I've never seen anyone, on any topic, ever say "okay so and so you are right, you have changed my mind." But I guess it could happen.

edited to add
i think the mods so a super job in this forum.

I think they do everything they can under sometimes difficult circumstances.

 

[Klaus]

melon:
I'm sorry that i simply don't understand some points - well i discussed evolution with a Biology-student tonight which was verry interesting.
I agree with you, it's not good to be offensive to anyone,women, men, people of different races and cultures, various religions incl. Jews. Muslims and of course also christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, democrats or republicans. After all they are just humans and we should treat them like with respect also i know that all of them sometimes behave in a manner which upsets some people.

Well i'm glad that we can all discuss in a civilized style in this thread

Klaus

---- edited to delete uneccessary parts ----

 

[melon]

Okay, thanks for the info.

So that means that no bandwidth from the originating site is being used by all our hot pics on PLEBA if no one is currently viewing the thread?

The pics are hosted on a site unassociated with Interference's servers. Thus, they do not affect Interference's bandwidth issues. So post all the images from other sites you want--except, of course, it will affect the other sites' bandwidth limits!

Melon

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I would also not want to give out any e-mail to access this forum, so I'd just like to say that, if it becomes premium only or e-mail required, it was nice chatting w/ everyone here.

Of course I don't think anyone should be allowed to make homophobic comments as long as they do so "politely". I feel very badly for the hurt that those comments might cause anyone here. I think that perhaps some people exercise far less self restraint and self censorship than others do, and maybe that's at the root of many of the problems.

I just don't see the point in having to continue to "bicker" back and forth in PMs or e-mails, and I see the potential for that being abused-for someone sending unwanted e-mails to someone else. That's the main reason I wouldn't want to have an e-mail address. I think problem posts and posters could just be handled privately by the moderators.

 

[U2Kitten]

The pics are hosted on a site unassociated with Interference's servers. Thus, they do not affect Interference's bandwidth issues. So post all the images from other sites you want--except, of course, it will affect the other sites' bandwidth limits!

Melon

Are they using up bandwidth from Olive's site and my webpage, and all the other originating sites, even when they are in storage not being viewed, or only when somebody clicks on them? The reason I want to know is because so many people have been shut down temporarily for going over their bandwidth

 

[BVS]

I have to say I disagree with the premium only status ( & I never disagree with Marty). But I think sometimes FYM get overly stagnant by the same posters, same ideology, same opinions. I'm not excluding myself in any way either. Fresh blood so to speak helps to invigorate discussion.

As to Kitty's claim that discussion never changes minds, I have to disagree. Many discussions we've had here in FYM have at least altered my perception of things or at least educated me on many issues.

edited to add
i think the mods so a super job in this forum.

Agree 100%

but what does that mean though?
that threads about homosexuality should be forbidden?
that we delete every post that appears to have homophobic content? [/B]

I don't think threads of this nature should be forbidden. I think with the recent debates of gay marriage that these discussions can be helpful, I know it can be like banging your head against the wall with some, but I would hate to ban all discussion on this. Then what would be next? Melon this is by no means me trying to ignore your feelings, I just think that if it may help one person to understand it may be worth while. I think one of the biggest problems this forum has and I'm not sure how you would correct this, but when on the topic of something like homosexuality we often get responses like "well I just think it's discusting". I've brought this up before and I was told it doesn't matter because I'm entitled to my opinion. Well yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you bring nothing to the discussion when you can't bring any reasoning, evidence, or logic to the debate. This is what irks me the most in this forum is when individuals pipe in on a debate and state nothing but their opinion. I know many of the discussion in this board are based on emotion, but you can't just come out and say "Well I just hate Bush thats why", tell me why you hate Bush. I don't know, does that make sense, is that asking too much?

 

[Klaus]

MrsSpringsteen:
It would be helpful when i find out that my comment or question is offending someone i could pm another person who agrees that this was offending but still is less emotional about the subject -> i could understand it without offending the 1st person even more.
Or simply to say "i'm sorry" without f*cking up the whole thread

U2Kitten:
exactly, the bandwith is charged from the server were the pictures are.

 

[Pinball Wizard]

that we delete every post that appears to have homophobic content?

Maybe my view is arbitrary on the subject, but I think it would be common sense to not address such personal qualities as special cases. A post may have all the good intent in the world, with respect to word choice and delivery... but in that action one can turn a discussion into a relevance-diluted afterschool special. The simple act of making accommodations implies difference, which may in turn be interpreted as offensive. Personally I do not know how to have a respectful conversation regarding sexuality, without making conscious adjustments (I concede my linguistic ineptitude). Is this because I have some hostile intrinsic homophobism, or a heterocentric vantage (WASA view if you will) of the world? No, quite the contrary actually. Words like tolerance and acceptance only persist division, so unless members of this forum begin to respect eachother as humans (with subtle, yet wonderful idiosyncracies) there should be more moderating regulation. Once a precedent has been set (collectively, as Salome suggested) for behaviour and understanding... then maybe we, as mature members, can talk with an awareness of our own context, as well that of our peers.

Originally posted by Salome
at some point choices will have to be made
and both members and mods will make these choices together

Sounds like a plan. Is it just me, or have we been agreeing to an uncomfortable extent as of late?