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Old 09-12-2005, 03:24 PM   #136
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


take pujols out of the cards lineup and they don't make the playoffs.

take jones out of the braves lineup and they plug some no name rookie and/or 48 year old vet into the lineup and they win it anyways 'cause they always friggin do no matter who they lost the year before.

frankly, i have no problem giving it to either of 'em. they're both deserving.
I think the Cards have a better shot at being in the playoffs (14 game lead currently) without Pujols than the Braves (7 game lead) without Jones.

Pujols is a candidate, no question, but the award is for "Most" Valualble Player, there can be only 1, and this season it is Andruw Jones.
Pujols should finish 2nd again.
Cabrera may end up in 3rd instead of Derek Lee just because the Cubs are nowhere near contending while tha Marlins may yet win the wildcard.

AL MVP is a little less clear cut.
A-Rod has the best overall numbers and will win if the Yanks make the playoffs, but if they don't, and depending upon who carries their team most down the stretch, you could have Ortiz, Vlad, Manny, Konerko (though suddenly it seems the ChiSox might collapse and miss the playoffs which would take him out) all as possibilities.
Mark Texiera would be a definite candidate if the Rangers were contending, but they aren't. Johnny Damon deserves some consideration, but since he doesn't hit for power and is in the same lineup as Ortiz and Ramirez, he'll finish around 7th.
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Old 09-12-2005, 03:38 PM   #137
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a-rod or vlad will win the AL mvp, based soley on the fact that ramirez, ortiz and damon will all steal votes from one another... the same way rolen, pujols and edmonds did last year.

i contend that if the giants end up over-taking the pathetic padres in these final three weeks that they should give the NL mvp to barry bonds... especially based on the argument that it reeeeally is supposed to go to whomever is the most valuable to his team...

20 games left in the season... giants are 7 games behind the padres, and 7 of those 20 games are against san diego...
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Old 09-12-2005, 03:45 PM   #138
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
i contend that if the giants end up over-taking the pathetic padres in these final three weeks that they should give the NL mvp to barry bonds... especially based on the argument that it reeeeally is supposed to go to whomever is the most valuable to his team...
I agree with you 100% but it doesn't always wind up like that given that Arod's rangers finished last and he still won the MVP.
Perhaps he should have won it in 2004 since that's when he actually helped the Rangers win.
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Old 09-12-2005, 05:09 PM   #139
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From cnnsi.com:


Pujols' time has come

Cardinals superstar deserves MVP over Braves' Jones

Posted: Monday September 12, 2005 12:47PM; Updated: Monday September 12, 2005 4:38PM


Andruw Jones lit into a couple more pitches Sunday, launching two home runs while the Braves crossed off another win and the growing "Jones for MVP" chorus revved up once again.

Without Jones this year, the Braves would be scrambling to stay afloat. He is, at the very least, their most valuable player. When Chipper Jones went down with an injury, Andruw was there. When all the rookies came up from the minors, Andruw showed them the way. When the Phillies and Marlins and Nationals and Mets made their runs, it was Andruw who beat them back.

Yes, Andruw Jones is having a heck of a year. As of Sunday, he led the majors in homers, with 49, and the National League in RBIs, with 121. But you know what?

Give me Albert Pujols for MVP.

What we have here is a case of a really good year by a very good player (that would be Jones) placed against another exceptional year in an already historic run of exceptional years by a truly exceptional player. Yes, Jones has been good. But he doesn't match up to Pujols, the Cardinals' first baseman.

(Before we go further, I have to mention the Cubs' Derrek Lee here, who also has produced an outstanding year. His team, though, has stumbled badly, which has hurt Lee's game and his MVP chances over the past month and a half. He's now behind both Pujols and Jones in the MVP race.)

I could rip off stats galore in this Jones vs. Pujols argument, but instead of doing that, let's just go with an abridged version of the numbers debate. Jones leads the league in homers and RBIs. Pujols is fairly close in both categories, ranking third in homers and second in RBIs. End of that.

Pujols leads Jones in just about every other meaningful statistical category: on-base percentage, slugging percentage, combined on-base and slugging (OPS), extra-base hits, total bases, batting average (that's not even close), hitting with runners on, hitting with runners in scoring position, walks, strikeouts, walk-to-strikeout ratio (that's not close, either), steals, runs, runs created ...

You get the idea.

Of course, that's the easy part of the equation. It gets a lot more difficult to pick an MVP when you take into consideration the intangibles. You know, the "most valuable" part.

Jones has been an integral part of the Braves, both with his typically wonderful play in center field and his place in a lineup that has undergone some painful changes. But no one has meant more to his team than Pujols.

Yes, the Cardinals have other stars, including center fielder Jim Edmonds. But the Cardinals, like the Braves, have had plenty of upheaval. They started the season with a new middle infield combination and a new catcher. They have played without third baseman Scott Rolen for most of the season (and he's now out for good). Outfielders Larry Walker and Reggie Sanders, key components to the lineup, have been injured for extended periods, too.

Pujols has been the Cardinals' rock, the steadiest part of a team that has the best record in the majors. He's missed one game all season. He leads the team in every offensive category. He has been everything that anyone expects out of an MVP: The leader, the example, the cornerstone.

Manager Tony La Russa raves about Pujols' work ethic. Everyone else raves about the results and the numbers he constantly, and consistently, churns out. Pujols has become the first player in history to hit .300 with at least 30 homers and 100 RBIs in each of his first five seasons. As of Sunday, he was hitting .337, four points shy of Lee, well within reach of his second batting title. He also had 39 homers and 107 RBIs. He was the only player in the NL in the top three in batting average, homers and RBIs, and he was also in the top three in on-base percentage (he led that category) and slugging percentage (he's second to Lee).

In 2002 and '03, Pujols played backup to Barry Bonds for the MVP award. Last year, he finished third (behind Bonds and the Dodgers' Adrian Beltre).

That also-ran streak should end this year. No one has been a better all-around player than Pujols. No one has meant more to his team.

If that's not an MVP, I don't know what is.
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Old 09-12-2005, 05:10 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
a-rod or vlad will win the AL mvp, based soley on the fact that ramirez, ortiz and damon will all steal votes from one another... the same way rolen, pujols and edmonds did last year.

It will probably be A-rod simply because many will look at Ortiz as just a DH. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm most likely not.
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Old 09-12-2005, 07:51 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hewson

Where I come from its "Most Valuable Player" to his team, and there is no question that currently in the NL that man is Andruw Jones.
On ESPN if you go to the team page they show you the team leaders for each major offensive category/

here are the offensive leaders for ATL:

CAT BATTER AMT
BA Marcus Giles .299
HR Andruw Jones 49
RBI Andruw Jones 121
R Marcus Giles 94
SB Rafael Furcal 40
OPS Andruw Jones .972

And for STL:

CAT BATTER AMT
BA Albert Pujols .337
HR Albert Pujols 39
RBI Albert Pujols 107
R Albert Pujols 117
SB Albert Pujols 15
OPS Albert Pujols 1.065


If leading every freaking offensive category is not Most Valuable Player for your team, then I don't know what is.

If Pujols wasn't in the lineup there is no way the Cardinals would be in first place. Rolen has been out for the season, Walker plays about once every 3 days, Sanders has been out since the All star break, Molina missed a couple months, Grudzelanek has been in and out with back problems, and Edmonds has been fighting through injuries and not the same. The only player in the Cardinals starting lineup who has made it through the season healthy has been David Eckstein.

Pujols has carried this team offensively on his back.
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Old 09-12-2005, 08:06 PM   #142
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here is the Cardinals lineup tonight without Pujols

D. Eckstein SS
J. Edmonds CF
S. Taguchi RF
Y. Molina C
R. Sanders LF
S. Seabol 1B
A. Nunez 3B
H. Luna 2B
M. Mulder P

i'm sorry, but that is nowhere near a 1st place team's lineup. So Taguchi and Yadier Molina in the 3 and 4 spots doesn't exactly strike a lot of fear into the opponent.

and keep in mind this is Reggie Sanders first game back since the All Star Break, without him a triple A guy named John Rodriguez would be starting. You should know him Hewson since he was a Boston minor league reject.

To keep this team playing well and winning since the All Star break is probably LaRussa's greatest managing job ever.
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Old 09-13-2005, 08:18 AM   #143
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Papi is king, A Fraud is not fit to carry Papi's man purse
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Old 09-13-2005, 08:37 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chizip
here is the Cardinals lineup tonight without Pujols

D. Eckstein SS
J. Edmonds CF
S. Taguchi RF
Y. Molina C
R. Sanders LF
S. Seabol 1B
A. Nunez 3B
H. Luna 2B
M. Mulder P

i'm sorry, but that is nowhere near a 1st place team's lineup. So Taguchi and Yadier Molina in the 3 and 4 spots doesn't exactly strike a lot of fear into the opponent.

and keep in mind this is Reggie Sanders first game back since the All Star Break, without him a triple A guy named John Rodriguez would be starting. You should know him Hewson since he was a Boston minor league reject.

To keep this team playing well and winning since the All Star break is probably LaRussa's greatest managing job ever.
And with Pujols out of the starting lineup, the Cardinals win.
The Cards' success this year is far more attributable to their pitching staff, you might see Carpenter get more MVP votes than Pujols.
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Old 09-13-2005, 09:19 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chizip


On ESPN if you go to the team page they show you the team leaders for each major offensive category/

here are the offensive leaders for ATL:

CAT BATTER AMT
BA Marcus Giles .299
HR Andruw Jones 49
RBI Andruw Jones 121
R Marcus Giles 94
SB Rafael Furcal 40
OPS Andruw Jones .972

And for STL:

CAT BATTER AMT
BA Albert Pujols .337
HR Albert Pujols 39
RBI Albert Pujols 107
R Albert Pujols 117
SB Albert Pujols 15
OPS Albert Pujols 1.065
that's fairly convincing right there...


and as beastly as david ortiz is, something is just inherently wrong with giving the MVP to a DH.
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Old 09-13-2005, 09:45 AM   #146
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There's never been a DH who's won the MVP, right? I'd love Ortiz to get it, but I'm sure there will be people who look at him as just a DH and go with A-Rod instead.

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Old 09-13-2005, 01:30 PM   #147
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


that's fairly convincing right there...


and as beastly as david ortiz is, something is just inherently wrong with giving the MVP to a DH.
Is this really any worse than giving the MVP to a player like, say, Manny Ramirez or Jason Giambi? (i.e., guys who play lousy defense at positions where an inflatable dummy could do better)
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Old 09-13-2005, 01:33 PM   #148
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Is this really any worse than giving the MVP to a player like, say, Manny Ramirez or Jason Giambi? (i.e., guys who play lousy defense at positions where an inflatable dummy could do better)
well... first, giambi's not that bad. is he a gold glover? by no means... not even close. but he's servicable. he's no mike piazza, that's for sure.

as for manny... well... all i can say is that going out and making bonehead plays takes more energy than sitting on the bench. i absolutely hate the DH, so i'm always gonna say a DH shouldn't win the MVP.
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Old 09-13-2005, 01:46 PM   #149
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


well... first, giambi's not that bad. is he a gold glover? by no means... not even close. but he's servicable. he's no mike piazza, that's for sure.

as for manny... well... all i can say is that going out and making bonehead plays takes more energy than sitting on the bench. i absolutely hate the DH, so i'm always gonna say a DH shouldn't win the MVP.
Actually, I intentionally left Piazza out of the discussion, because it takes a lot more effort to be a crappy catcher than to be a crappy LF, RF or 1B.
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Old 09-13-2005, 02:57 PM   #150
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Actually, I intentionally left Piazza out of the discussion, because it takes a lot more effort to be a crappy catcher than to be a crappy LF, RF or 1B.
i was actually talking about his crappy play at first base last year... but that works.
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