Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows discussion ***SPOILERS!!!***

[Varitek]

oh, and Varitek, one last thought. Why does Harry name one of his children--the one who looks just like him, right down to the eyes--after Snape, and tell him the "bravest man" line. JK can go on TV and argue all she wants, but in the book, she has Harry performing the ultimate act of forgiveness, and she can't go back and change her own "contradictory testimony" so to speak. What kind of message is she trying to send?

She has Harry, at least, honoring him in a way, one that he did not merit, and which the outright Snape haters no doubt were aghast at when they read the Epilogue. What was Harry doing? Was he really so soft-minded and niave? After all, he suffered more than any from the abuse of Snape, and if he of all people had the capacitiy to forgive....I too had the initial reaction of "one act of heroism does not cancel out 7 yrs of abuse" , but Jo has not addressed this issue, so I have to think that she, like me, is of conflciting minds.

And Dumbledore's initial reaction of "disgust" was tempered over time, to the point where he later said, "sometimes I think we sort too soon", etc. Does that mean he changed his mind ? Absolutely not. But it shows that Dumbledore at least had come to the conclusion that he was making sicere efforts at redemption...

It's not like Dumbledore was still a pure hero in Harry's mind, and that was the kid's first name. Both Dumbledore and Snape had helped Harry on his way (DD more obviously) and had died for him and for the end of Voldemort, as well as making other sacrifices besides dying. Sorting too soon referred to Snape's clear display of bravery. In terms of a message, I think that hte morality of the books isn't always the same as Harry's opinion on morality or other characters. Naming the kid provided a sort of closure for Harry, if not for us, on Snape. Also, Snape was indeed brave, he did sacrifice for Harry. So he deserved that honor in Harry's mind, I'm sure there are lots of other kids running around that school 19 years later with names of those who died in that war. (there best be a little Fred...grrr) It's not black and white, it's not supposed to be black and white. I was a little repulsed by the kid being named Severus personally, but I understood why Harry did it, and why Jo did it.


Might get into my office this week or next. I don't really follow NY politics other than that, because I'm just here for the summer and I follow my home politics of Massachusetts, where I still feel locally invested.

Then who's the heir of Gryffindor??

Nobody, as it should be. They are "true Gryffindors" but the only one who really cared about being an heir and lineage and such is Voldemort. Caring about lineage and heirs is putting Muggle-borns on a lower plane - exactly what we are told is wrong.

I'm kind of torn on Harry going to work for the Ministry of Magic.

On the one hand, I can see that's obviously where his greatest talent lies, as an Auror, and that rather than ignore the system that failed him, he takes a position there to try and change "the system" and does eventually (and rather conveniently and too neatly) change it.

But still I have that nagging irritation that not once in all his dealings with the Ministry, did it ever come through for him (and I'm talking about even BEFORE it was taken over by Voldemort). And it still continued to employ people like Umbridge. Of course, it also employed Mr. Weasley, as well. And I just wonder if a huge governmental entity and bureauocracy, like the Ministry, could really change so drastically in under 19 years because of 3 people.

My first choice for his career would be as a Seeker on a professional Quidditch team. Aside from being an Auror, I think playing Seeker is his second greatest skill. Next, I would rather he take up the DADA position at Hogwarts. Also, this would again illustrate the complete difference between Harry and Voldemort because Harry would be able to take on and accomplish what Voldemort wanted to and never could.

Maybe it's just me, but working for the corrupt Ministry just makes my skin crawl.

The nice thing is that we see that it isn't a problem with the institution but with the people running it. Umbridge was the Dick Cheney meets Goebbels villain, and Scrimgeour was even more interesting, a guy who wanted to do good and died protecting Harry but who was terrible at leading government and prefered misinformation and persecuting the innocent to real progress. Though she planned the books years ago she clearly took some inspiration from certain world leaders for these characters. And once they are gone, once good people like Kingsley take over, once all those like the Weasleys and other good non-order emmbers who were too scared to do anything under Voldemort's regime (because bad as the ministry was in 5 and 6, you must remember it was Voldemort running it in 7) were able to resume working and flush the death eaters and their sympathizers out, the institution was fine with good people running it.

I like to think that Harry took a few years off to play pro seeker either right before or right after he finished school (if he needed to finish school) and then went off to be an Auror when he was ready to go back into that line of work, after he'd had his much-needed escape. But it's Jo's story so she'll tell us in the encyclopedia (fingers crossed!!).

Thus, Harry has seen what LV would become without remorse---he has seen "dead." Still, I need to read the remorse bits again....

I don't fully understand this bit yet, but I know it has something to do with the Horcruxes. In book 6 Dumbledore tells Harry that Horcruxes can be undone and the soul can be healed if the maker truly feels remorse, real remorse, which can be very, very painful. (Just as this remorse is necessary to atone for any murder.) So Harry I think was giving Voldemort one last chance to recall those pieces of himself, though what I don't get is that aren't all of them destroyed, or was the one that was part of Harry and then the baby under the chair not destroyed until Voldemort killed himself? So I'm not totally sure about that part but hope the extra info helps a little. I can't wait to have time to reread the whole series at once, with knowledge of the 7th book.

 

[Teta040]

Merlin's thong!! Utoo, and everyone, all I can say is....WOW

I am seriously committed to finishing the book by Wednesday (I'm deliberately going slow) can't write one of my encyclopedia-length replies....but just to touch on a couple things VERY briefly....

Utoo: about King's Cross....I am still trying to figure out all this, and you make as good a stab at it as any. I don't think anyone will be able to figure out why the baby is under a chair but allI can think of is pg 180-181 where Harry finds the photo of himself at age 1, right before he is marked with the scar, lying under a dresser in Sirius's bedroom....

Ditto on origional plans but current inspiration from current world leaders. Ha ha....and having all the real baddies such as Rita survive is fitting. That's the way it works today, in the real world....

Varitek, I see you have relanteda bit on Snape. Can we come to a truce? Jo pretty much pointed to my line of thinking in the Dateline NBC interview today...someone can post the link....and you're from MA? Ok, I excuse your political ignorance...

There's a story on Mugglenet that Alfonso Cuaron is currently reading DH and has expressed an interest in directing it. A lot of book purists are reacting with howls of outrage. Personally, I would love gthe idea...and YES I know POA the book! Frankly I am more concerned about the possibilty of Yates directing DH...he did a very good job with OOTP but too much was left out. (I mean, can't we have seen JUST ONE glimpse of Mrs Black? Can't Tonks have said "Wotcher" or Moody "CONSANT VIGILANCE!" These are things that take only one second....and by far the biggest sin: NOT SEEING LILY'S FACE AT ALL DURING SNAPE'S WORST MEMORY, a scene only, what , TEN SECONDS LONG? If a director could be found who matches Cuaron's artistic flair and film legnth with Yates's being the Master of Darkness....


And to the poster who actually thinks HP is better than LOTR....what can I say..I won't even address this. You have obviously not read The Silmarillion or any of the 12-volume History of Middle Earth. The incredible vastness and commplexity of ME, the languages, etc...and the characters, the story covering thousands of years! HP in my mind is almost as good. And that's a very close almost. And that's saying a lot, given Tolkien's place in world literature. As for wrapping up the series too nicely and twee, you obviously haven't read the Appendices. What happens to Aragorn and Arwen? What, for that matter, ultimately happens to Gimli? (I REFUSE to spoil this.) Do you even know what the Grey Havens are? People who think Frodo just "dies" and goes to Heaven.....it's more complicated than that. He is mortal, so he cannot stay in the Blessed Realm. That place is just a temporary place of healing for his body and mind.....but in the end, he still has to die. I didn't understand this, for years and years, after reading the books....and the theme of the changing world, and of how we are living the Seventh or Eighth Age, in a sense....


anyway, have to run....I have just finished the chapter with Dobby's funeral, when everyone put their socks/hats/ CLOTHES on him before putting him in the grave...I LOST IT.....hope to reach where I started my first reading from, pg 550, Tues, and re-read the last chapters asap....

 

[Saracene]

I think it's pretty pointless to compare LoTR to HP in the first place, but personally speaking I vastly prefer the latter though I do love the LoTR films. Sure, I can admire Tolkien's imagination and the sheer scope and detail of his creation - but I find his prose dry and dull and, with the exception of Gollum and maybe Sam, I just really couldn't give a damn about the rest of his characters. JKR may not be much of a stylist and sometimes her overuse of adverbs drives me nuts but at least she gave me characters I could care about.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

I'm only on page five of this thread, but best part (or one of the top five) was Mrs. Weasly throwing down!

I'm pretty happy with the book, the epilogue was too neatly tied up and I'm still pissy that Severus had to die, but get why. I teared up over Hedwig and Dobby the most.

I really can't wait to see how the movie of this turns out. I want it to be no holds barred, but we'll see when we get there.

 

[Dalton]

I think it's pretty pointless to compare LoTR to HP in the first place, but personally speaking I vastly prefer the latter though I do love the LoTR films. Sure, I can admire Tolkien's imagination and the sheer scope and detail of his creation - but I find his prose dry and dull and, with the exception of Gollum and maybe Sam, I just really couldn't give a damn about the rest of his characters. JKR may not be much of a stylist and sometimes her overuse of adverbs drives me nuts but at least she gave me characters I could care about.

I've always said that I appreciate the fact that HP was written with a woman's (stereotype) sensibility. While I love the LotR and Narnia chronicles for their philosophy, brilliance, and characters, I love HP for the characters, brilliance, and philosophy.

The difference lies in the authors priorities in my opinion. JKR is/was more concerned with her characters than she is/was with proving a point. Both the stories and the philosophies in her books served to strengthen and explain her characters. With Tolkien and Lewis the characters and the story served to explain and strengthen their points.

 

[FitzChivalry]

I like to think that Harry took a few years off to play pro seeker either right before or right after he finished school (if he needed to finish school) and then went off to be an Auror when he was ready to go back into that line of work, after he'd had his much-needed escape.

I like this idea a lot. Yes, yes. He's much too proactive to just laze about, so maybe he would go pro for a few years before settling down to life as an Auror.

I think J.K. is right and there's no way she could possibly answer all our questions, so as readers and fans we have to use our own imagination to fill in some of the gaps.

I personally would like one more scene with Harry, Ron and Hermione after Harry repairs his wand; a scene for the 3 of them to reflect on the magnitude of all they'd been through and just kind of decompress. In my mind, this scene takes place in front of Fred's final resting place, on a nice summer day, as they bring him skiving snackboxes and fizzing whizzby's to lay at his grave, or maybe just lazing by the lake by Hogwarts.

My favorite sentence in the entire series is the very last, long, paragraph-like sentence in HBP where Harry reflects that his spirits lifted at the thought of spending one last, happy and hopeful day with Ron and Hermione. In my mind, I enviage a final scene encompassing that: just the 3 of them, getting along and being happy and content.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I read the book this weekend. Don't have anything earthshattering to add, just that I really enjoyed it. I'm a casual fan; I've read all of the books but never bought any of them. I watch the movies when I get an opportunity. I was really satisfied with how JKR finished the series. And I even liked the epilogue, but then again I read romance novels frequently and cheesy epilogues with beatific children are practically de rigeur in that genre.

Stuff in book 7 that was memorable to me:
1. Dobby!!!! I didn't cry, but I did get a little choked up. I didn't see that coming. I really liked how Harry wanted to dig the grave himself with no magic and how that physical effort helped clear his mind of Voldy. The inscription on the gravestone was perfect.
2. I liked how Dumbledore becomes even more multi-faceted and less perfectly good, saintly cuddly father christmas-y.
3. Snape turning out to be on the right side... I KNEW this was going to be the case all along and it felt good to be vindicated.
4. The bit where Harry goes presumably to his death and his parents, Sirius, et al accompany him...loved the imagery and how with their presence he didn't need a patronus.
5. Ron and Hermione finally getting together after all this time.

Harry going to meet Voldemort and the whole bit about him knowing that he must die to save everyone and being willing to do so was quite Christ-like, if I may say so. I'm curious to know how all those fundamentalists who have raged against the HP phenomenon all these years are going to take it. In the end, I think these "evil" magic books have shown a lot more about what's really important in life and the true essence of Christianity (the greatest commandment is to love one another, right???) than most so-called "christian" novels I've read. So while that may not have been Ms. Rowling's intent, I take my hat off to her. Bravo.

 

[BonosLil'Pal94]

I'm gonna join in on this conversation now...I only read the first page though. I finished the book on Saturday and I got my mom into the books, so she's starting with the 6th. She's been reading a lot lately, i'm surprised!!

Lets see....

I totally predicted Harry marrying Ginny.
I only got choked up when Fred died...and Dobby too and when I saw Harry's kids' names.
I'm so happy Hermione and Ron finally got together.
I wanted to see more on the subject of Teddy...shouldn't Harry have realized he was in charge of the kid when he saw Lupin and Tonks both dead?

 

[BonosLil'Pal94]

This is going to be a long movie, because most of the movie would be terribly confusing without including everything.

Also, does anyone understand what that thing was at King's Cross that kept screaming in the corner? Could it have been the Horcrux inside of Harry?

 

[tuwie]

and I was thinking about why Voldemort had Nagini kill Snape...and I
guess it makes sense that he didnt avada-kedavara him with the Elder
Wand because if Voldemort thought Snape was still the master of the
elder wand, he might have expected that an Avada Kedavara wouldn't
work on Snape.

however, it's questionable whether or not voldemort knew about the
whole "wand-won't-hit-his-own-master" idea because Voldemort still
tried to kill Harry with the Elder Wand (though maybe at that point,
Voldemort didn't believe Harry was the master of the Elder Wand).

 

[FitzChivalry]

I wanted to see more on the subject of Teddy...shouldn't Harry have realized he was in charge of the kid when he saw Lupin and Tonks both dead?

Well, Teddy's grandmother (Tonks' mother and Bellatrix and Narcissa's sister?/aunt?) was still alive. Like Neville, I'm sure Teddy was raised by his grandmother.

And the epilogue seems to show that Harry is very much involved in Teddy's life. (I don't know about you, but there's not many people that I visit for dinner at least 4 times a week. )

 

[BonosLil'Pal94]

^good point...didn't really think about the grandmother idea.

And ya...I guess Harry and Teddy must be prrrrretty darn close!

 

[Teta040]

WOW WOW WOW

and can I say it again....

WOW


Jo gave an online chat with Bloomsbury.com yesterday and let loose with an ABSOLUTE GOLD MINE of information.....if you thought the Today show was informative....geez Jo...at this rate you won't have anything left for the encyclopedia.....not that I'm complaining!!

Go to Mugglenet.com and you will find the link....let me see if I can post the direct link....what I really wish is for someone to print out the entire chat here, as it is VERY long and it would be great to have the sentences to reference in chat!

I have to say, she pretty much vindicate dmy feelings on Snape though...even going so far as to say Lily had feelings for him that might have turned romantic had not he acquired Death Eaters for friends..I KNEW that flower petal imagery wasn't just thrown in there! Also saying a person's Patronus takes the form of the love of one's life b/c of the person's happy thoughts in summoning it are about that beloved person..which is what I was saying all along....

Let me see if I can get the link....

Here it is, you can type it in if this doesn't work directly (I've had trouble posting direct links on here in the past, for some reason)..

http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/full_story/1156

Highlights, she tells who is next Minister of Magic, discusses the new "Admistration" in detail, and how the careers of people fit in, other careers, characters' fates, who killed Tonks and Lupin, George, Snape, Dumbledore, spells, King's Cross (I'm surprised she opened up about that chapter!) Horcruxes, a lot of different things. My favorite comments are answer to what Muggle song would be played at Dumbledore's funeral, and "I think we are having a very Dementor-influenced summer here in the U.K!" (the weather.)


This is a MUST READ..do yourself a favor and read it! And Jo promises even more on her site in days to come. I think she's reluctant to say goodbye as are all of us. And BTW...Happy birthday Jo (42) and "Harry" ("27").

And now, have to get back to reading..*Crack* (Disapparates)

 

[Teta040]

Yep... my link works...so everyone do yourself a favor and get reading!

(And my question was answered, about Snape's shampoo problem! OK, I didn't get through, that wasn't me, but she asked my same question! Good answer, Jo, but that still doesn't answer any thoughts on why Lily could have POSSIBLY been eventually romatically attracted to him if he was so scruffy? I mean, come on, I understand the reasoning on his part (maybe) but dirty hair is dirty hair!...

BTW, Entertinment Weekly has devoted its new issue to an HP farewell. In the Summing up of the 7 Books section there is a hilarious "tribute" to Snape from a fan on the Editorial staff....this is a good read too. I have a subscription to EW.

*EDIT*....just re-reading the transcript again and some of the comments. This thought just occurred to me, b/c someone had a comment about what happened to Snape's body. Jo now tells us that not only did Harry name one of his kids after him, he makes sure that a portrait of Snape goes up in the Headmaster's office. Which makes me believe that, after the battle, he had time to reflect on the Persieve and that's where the process of forgiveness started. Having been the only party to the circumstances of Snape's death, he must have gone back to the Shrieking Shack and seen to the body. He must have seen to its burial. Maybe..and this is a big maybe, but seeing how this book was written and which scenes were dwelled on...MAYBE he even took the body to Godric's Hollow and buried it close to his parent's grave, so Snape could be close to Lily in death (as he did not see Snape in the Forest.) In an unmarked spot, of course....at least unmarked for a few decades. Of course this might be pure tosh (I really should slap myself a few times with a sock like a house-elf to punish myself for having these hiccups of sentimentality about this character!) but you never know. Maybe Snape's funeral is like Dobby's...a solitary Harry digging the grave by hand and, eventually, if he ever puts up a marker, slowly spelling out the inscription letter by letter. I know, sentimental tosh, but Harry seems to be capable of an incredible amount of forgiveness. I'm not sure I could be like this....

And BTW, folks, once I finish the book I'll focus on other topics than Snape for instance!! And now, I really HAVE to go....good night....

*CRACK*

 

[Teta040]

One final note....a sad one. It's probably in the Film area, but in case it isn't.

Ingmar Bergman is dead. I knew he was up there, and finding out his age (89), still it is a shock.

The world will never see another like him. We may have another batch of great filmakers in this generation, but as a collective whole, we move farther and farther away from the Golden Age of world cinema, when even here in America, it was still an Art form....

I hope he is finally at peace. *starts to hum the "Virgin Mary"song from "The Seventh Seal"....the one that is played on the lute during the picnic scene, the one with the bowl of strawberries.....if you remember that film you know what I mean.

 

[major_panic]

Kingsley Shacklebolt is probably the biggest badass in the entire series, does he ever mess up? Answer: no.

Damn it, I'd always imagined this guy to be SAMUEL L. JACKSON! Not whoever plays him in the movies.

"Get that snake off my Hogwarts!"

 

[Teta040]

LOL.....I am thinking that Kingsley was already dressed like a MOM in Film 5....those sparkly sky-blue robes spoke POWER TO THE PEOPLE!! All he had to do was walk into the room and he was the scariest mutha down, outside of Dumbledore and a Death Eater. "You gotta admit....Dumbledore's got style." That line got a huge laugh in the theater.....

Wow, it's quiet on the board today! Maybe everyone's racing to finish or re-read the book like me...I'm currently up to the 2nd half of CHapter 19, where I read before....now I have to get through all the chapters between "The Silver Doe' and "The Sacking of Severus Snape", that's the only parts I haven't read....

 

[LMP]

Damn it, I'd always imagined this guy to be SAMUEL L. JACKSON! Not whoever plays him in the movies.

"Get that snake off my Hogwarts!"

I had the exact same conversation with a friend of mine.

How amazing would that be though?

 

[Varitek]

The difference lies in the authors priorities in my opinion. JKR is/was more concerned with her characters than she is/was with proving a point. Both the stories and the philosophies in her books served to strengthen and explain her characters. With Tolkien and Lewis the characters and the story served to explain and strengthen their points.

I totally agree! There's a thread on Leaky Lounge where Oscar Wilde's quote came up - something about "books are not moral or immoral, only well written or poorly written." This doesn't meant hat we can't discuss morality with books as a reference frame, or use the books to come up with a message or the author's moral views or discuss whether different characters and events are moral (using the books as a reference frame again). That's what you do with a good book. However, the most enjoyable books, and the ones over which this type of discussion is most interesting, are not the books that push philosophy first, that wear their authors' morals so clearly on the book sleeve that there is nothing to discuss. These books are way too didactic to the point that not only is discussion boring, but reading them might not be so fun - like attending a sermon. I'm thinking Chronicles of Narnia here. Those are the books where Oscar Wilde's quote is perhaps wrong - they are indeed moral (or immoral) books, and that is precisely why they are poorly written.

Varitek, I see you have relanteda bit on Snape. Can we come to a truce? Jo pretty much pointed to my line of thinking in the Dateline NBC interview today...someone can post the link....and you're from MA? Ok, I excuse your political ignorance...

As for the interview quote, I think Snape got redemption for Harry, and forgiveness from Harry. But as Jo says, he never stops being a horrible person through and through. So - does he deserve redemption? Depends on your personal morals to a large extent. I argue no. Though there are a few things in the story that indicate that Snape's years on the good side had erradicated his tendency towards the dark arts and death eaters.

A question I've been mulling over recently - I was wondering how Harryy survived under DD's explanation - that Voldemort taking Harry's blood made Lily's protection tie Harry to the world. Why did this last beyond Harry's 17th? Did Harry survive (or survive in part) because he owned the deathly hallows? (Which would make DD wrong about why Harry survived.) Can the Deathly Hallows actually keep someone from dying, given that that is just a myth and we know the items aren't really as powerful as they are described as in the myth? (Moody can see through Harry's cloak and possibly cats and DD, the wand isn't unbeatable, the death stone doesn't really bring people back)

Does anyone have an answer to my Hagrid movement problem? I have gotten almost to the point of drawing a diagram of the damn scene, my best theory is that Harry didn't move like he should have because the motorcycle was already dying, but Hagrid still shouldn't have been right below.

On Teddy and Harry's responsibility - I think Harry was a great Godfather, but Teddy's grandmother still raised him. However, my mom thought it was a dead giveaway that Harry wasn't going to die when he didn't make an arrangement for Teddy to get his money or have another godfather or something before he went into the forrest. She though if Jo actually was about to kill Harry, Teddy would have been addressed there.

Tuwie - Voldemort had no idea that Harry was the master of the wand. He didn't know that Draco had become the master because he didn't know Draco had disarmed DD. Draco didn't know he had become the master, nor did Snape, because they didn't know DD had the wand. Harry only figured the whole thing out in the very end, after or maybe during King's Cross, but even he didn't predict the rebounding Avada Kedavra, he just had a huge degree of confidence about fighting Voldemort after King's Cross.


By the way, this quote is really interesting:

J.K. Rowling: Well, it is a political metaphor. But … I didn't sit down and think, "I want to recreate Nazi Germany," in the-- in the wizarding world. Because-- although there are-- quite consciously overtones of Nazi Germany, there are also associations with other political situations. So I can't really single one out.

I haven't had the chance to wade through Jo's chat transcript yet (it's 18 pgs copied into Word) but I'll post about that when I do. I'm super excited to read it!!

Teta - got back into the office today. The agency bought the whole office breakfast too.

 

[Varitek]

OK I'm reading some of the chat - I'm now confused about Ron's career. On the Today Show, she said

Harry and Ron utterly revolutionized the Auror Department in-- at the Ministry of Magic. So they-- I mean, they are now the consummate-- they are experts. It doesn't matter how old they are or what else they've done.So Harry and Ron lead the way in recreating the new Auror Department.

But in the chat she says

J.K. Rowling: Ron joined George at Weasleys’ Wizarding Wheezes, which became an enormous money-spinner.....J.K. Rowling: Well, I don’t think that George would ever get over losing Fred, which makes me feel so sad. However, he names his first child and son Fred, and he goes on to have a very successful career, helped by good old Ron.

So....does Ron work with George, or as an Auror? Or does he take some time to make some money and then join Harry when Harry becomes department head and requests that Ron join him?


I'm kind of sad that Ginny just ends up a housewife/Quidditch correspondant and that there's no mention of Harry's seeker career - I guess he stuck with the important stuff after all, but the poor kid really deserved a few years of a good fun break, and he does fly as well as Krum after all!

 

[Varitek]

Another contradiction between the chat and the Today show - this one I find very interesting, like Jo is still making up her mind:

chat 7/30:

J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity – and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love

J.K. Rowling: and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That’s pretty heroic!

today show 7/26 and 27:

MV: Was Snape always intended to be a hero?

JKR: [sharp intake of breath] Is he a hero? You see I don't see him really as a hero.

MV: Really?

JKR: Yeh. He's spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But, was he brave? Yes, immensely.

Greta, 8: If Snape didn't love Lily, would he have still tried to protect Harry?

JKR: No. He Definitely wouldn't have done. He wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to this boy.

(next day)

J.K. Rowling: Snape is a complicated man. He's bitter. He's … spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But was he brave? Yes, immensely.

Was he capable of love? Very definitely. So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us.

Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness. And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. it's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway.

 

[Butterscotch]

So George did name his kid Fred. I thought she'd do that. Good.

 

[Tiger Edge]

She said that laying down his life for the memory of the woman he loved was heroic, not that he was a hero.
She even said he was an anti-hero.

You can do heroic things and still not be a hero.

 

[If you shout...]

I feel profoundly let down by this novel. Bland, poorly written (though they've none of them been well-written, by any stretch of the imagination), unsettlingly predictable, and just...I dunno...time-wasting? Lots of dragging of feet, in this one, and very, very, very little payoff, once the dust settles.

I love the books, on the whole, but apart from the first novel (which I don't actually enjoy, too much), I feel that Deathly Hallows is without a doubt the weakest of the bunch. It's hardly the worst book I've read even recently, but it's...yeah. Nothing special, and at times pretty bad.

I wish I had access to all my other books, here in Japan, but I don't. I'd love to be able to go back and read books two through four, to wash this bad taste outta my mouth...

 

[Teta040]

Varitek, here I can only quote the B-Man:

"Right in the middle of a contradiction, that's where I want to be."

(And glad your office situation is working out. Your situation was bad enough, now those poor people in Minn.-St Paul!??! with the bridge? That bridge was only 40 yrs old! I won't even begin to rant on the starving of funds for..um..DOMESTIC purposes at the moment--not the right thread anyway...God help those poor folks)

Anyway, I seem to remember a fan meet and greet she had a couple of yrs ago and she was talking about Snape, and someone asked about "the redemption of Snape." She was taken aback and said "the redemption of Snape?!" and couldn't speak for a moment or two....

I'm two-thirds of the way through the book now, I've finsihed all the parts I haven't before and and am re-reading the 2nd half. HEARTBREAKING...All I can say is, Warner Brothers has their work cut out for them indeed.

Will be back for more in-depth stuff soon. Wonderful on how the "three brothers" are Dumbledore, Snape, and Harry....this "book within a book" thing is wonderful. Like in LOTR and Alice, etc.

 

[Saracene]

Yes, it's interesting how JKR herself obviously feels conflicted about Snape.

I always thought that Harry will end up forgiving Snape - especially when JKR wrote in the fifth book that Harry was *never* going to forgive him. When a writer phrases it in an explicit way like this you just know it's a setup for reversal,

 

[Varitek]

She said that laying down his life for the memory of the woman he loved was heroic, not that he was a hero.
She even said he was an anti-hero.

You can do heroic things and still not be a hero.

She says "yes I do, though a very flawed hero."

I agree that you can do heroic things and still not be a hero. You can also do things that would be heroic or moral with the proper intentions behind them, but lacking proper intentions, are not. They simply have the same outcome as the heroic or moral path.

 

[Varitek]

I feel profoundly let down by this novel. Bland, poorly written (though they've none of them been well-written, by any stretch of the imagination), unsettlingly predictable, and just...I dunno...time-wasting? Lots of dragging of feet, in this one, and very, very, very little payoff, once the dust settles.

She isn't the most technically skilled writer, though she has improved over the course of the series. She has always had sort of awkward pacing, and Deathly Hallows was probably most awkward of all, but I think it works in a way - the slow parts of moving around really give you the tedious feeling that existed for Harry and Hermione. Then everything happens at once at the end, as it always does in HP books.

As for predictability, I was somewhat surprised but at the same time unsurprised to see how many fan-generated theories were correct. She laid a foundation of clues over the first six books so of course the stuff makes sense when it happens. And there were plenty of wonderful and interesting unpredicted plot developments - Dumbledore's family history, what the Deathly Hallows actually were vs. the myth of them.

Expectations were so high for this book that some readers were bound to be disapointed. I was at first, because of all the unanswered questions I had at the end, but JKR is getting to those now so I'm much happier. And regardless, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, had a huge grin on my face at the end of the epilogue, and have already had plenty of interesting discussions using DH as a springboard. It's not supposed to be the Great 21st Century Novel or whatever, it's supposed to be enjoyable and wrap up the series.

Did you have fun reading it? I had a blast, and that's good enough for me. The interesting conversation is a bonus.

 

[Kiki]

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Deaths:
Burbage pg12
Hedwig pg56
Mad-Eye pg78
Scrimgeour pg159
Wormtail pg471
Dobby pg476
Tonks pg??
Lupin pg??
Fred pg637
Voldemort kills Snape pg656-658
Mrs. Weasley kills Bellatrix Lestrange pg736
Harry kills Voldemort pg744


19 years later (epilogue)
Harry marries Ginny Weasley, they have 3 kids, James, Albus, Lilly.
Ron marries Hermione, they have 2 kids, Hugo and Rose, and adopts Teddy (son of Tonks + Lupin)
Neville becomes a teacher.
































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I just read the epilogue last night. It never said anywhere that Ron and Hermione adopted Teddy Lupin. I even re read it after I'd read it the first time. All it said was that he was kissing Victoire which is a cousin to James, Albus, Lily, Rose, and Hugo. James asked Harry to let Teddy move in to their house with them and Rose or Lily said she hopes that Victoire and Teddy get married.

 

[Butterscotch]

I like her writing style and prefer it to more 'skilled' writers. I like it because she's a storyteller, and that's more important to me than how it's done. Sometimes fancy writing makes things harder for me to understand. I can understand her. I like her that way.