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Old 10-06-2009, 10:22 PM   #16
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i see no need for this. just let gay people get married. people in support of gay marriage don't seem to have a problem with the religious aspect of marriage, and there are very religious gay people out there as well.

this makes a very, very simple issue needlessly complex.


I am a heterosexual, married woman, who attends mass. For spiritual reasons, only. And I have no problem, what so ever with gay marriage. Who are we, to tell other folks, whom they can love?
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:44 PM   #17
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NO. I like being married.


but, martha, you realize that this is like saying that you're no better than a gay person.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:09 AM   #18
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DAMMIT!!!!

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Old 10-07-2009, 03:47 AM   #19
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people in support of gay marriage don't seem to have a problem with the religious aspect of marriage, and there are very religious gay people out there as well.

this makes a very, very simple issue needlessly complex.
For me it's not so much the religious aspect that's salient here, it's the social aspect. Our wedding ceremony took place in a synagogue of course, but probably half the attendees weren't Jews; they were everything from Hindus to atheists to Lutherans, and they certainly weren't there as graciously tolerated visiting foreigners or something. An integral part of the meaning of the ceremony or rite of getting married is that the two of you get up and take those vows to each other before an assembled community of friends, family, colleagues etc., who bear witness to the moment and thereby welcome and give their blessing (or if you prefer, extend their goodwill and implicit pledges of support) to this entry of the two of you, together, into a new joint relationship to the rest of your community. And vice versa--the ceremony and reception which follows it aren't a celebration of you, they're the two of you thanking and honoring all the assembled for kindnesses already shown and for those yet to come. The great thing about civil ceremonies is that they give couples who subscribe to no particular organized religion a space in which to do this--and of course, many heterosexual couples in fact choose to. That didn't seem to be a problem for anyone before, so why need it be one now? I can't think of any morally worthy reason for the sudden change.
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:08 AM   #20
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marriage isn't sacred. if you can get married in a fucking shopping mall or casino in vegas or whatever, that's not fucking sacred. and people who do that have more right to be legally married than a gay couple who genuinely care for each other and have thought long and hard about getting married?

what a fucking joke.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:03 AM   #21
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marriage isn't sacred.
It is if the two married people treat it as sacred. And it isn't if they don't.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:08 AM   #22
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It is if the two married people treat it as sacred. And it isn't if they don't.
It is on the micro, but not the macro...

I like how this subject was treated like it was some brand new idea that no one had thought of before...

I will be happy when this is no longer an issue and social conservatives are placed in the books as being on the wrong side of history once again.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:13 AM   #23
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It is if the two married people treat it as sacred. And it isn't if they don't.
yeah, i meant to put in that qualifier. if i didn't feel that way i wouldn't be getting married myself.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:20 AM   #24
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It is on the micro, but not the macro...

A lot of micros can change the macro.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:32 AM   #25
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That didn't seem to be a problem for anyone before, so why need it be one now? I can't think of any morally worthy reason for the sudden change.


because we have to remain firm that, while we are not intolerant, objectively, it is a sin. and God gets sad.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:01 AM   #26
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He'll get over it.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:23 PM   #27
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because we have to remain firm that, while we are not intolerant, objectively, it is a sin. and God gets sad.
Wow you seem to be pretty sure about that. Objectively, so it is a worldview then?
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:30 PM   #28
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He was being sarcastic.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:33 PM   #29
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As am I
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:58 PM   #30
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because we have to remain firm that, while we are not intolerant, objectively, it is a sin. and God gets sad.
It's interesting how you managed to sum up so accruately how a lot of Christians feel on this issue. I do think that people who feel this way are in a better place to change their thinking than those who are more emotionally worked about the issue.

I know this, because I was one of those people at one time. What changed things for me was the cognitive dissonance just got more and more severe as several people close to me came out, including my students. That, and Melon's providing me with some other ways of looking at those sticky scriptures.

If people can change their views on race, they can their views on this. Keep up the fight, my friend.
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