Lancemc
Blue Crack Addict
Eliot Goldenthal's score for Batman Forever is the best in the series though. And it's the sole reason I can't hate on the film too much.
Schumacher spends most of the B&R commentary apologizing for the film; he should chalk Forever in there, too. All of the interesting psychological story was cut in favor of Jim Carrey/Tommy Lee Jones mugging for the camera and setting out to bug me to no end. Carrey's Riddler is too much like The Joker, while Heath Ledger's Joker feels like what I'd want the Riddler to be, at least in terms of how he stages these elaborate moral dilemmas with clues/traps/etc... What gives?
Eliot Goldenthal's score for Batman Forever is the best in the series though. And it's the sole reason I can't hate on the film too much.
It's funny you compare Carrey's Riddler to The Joker, as I've always felt like TL Jones' Two Face is pretty much him just redoing Nicholson's Joker in every way. Regardless, both Carrey and TL were pretty much awful in their respective roles.
And if you're going to make the mistake of throwing Robin in, why cast someone waaaaaaaaaay too old for the role?
What you're saying about Ledger's Joker is probably the main reason I didn't care AS MUCH for The Dark Knight. It seems to me very similar to why a lot of people didn't like Kevin Spacey's Lex Luthor. He focused too much on the dark side of the character and not enough on the camp. This is why I stick to the 1960s series
Frank Gorshin is still the best Riddler.
I'm not sure why people say Batman Returns is a bad Batman film. Just as Miller's Batman has some differences with Loeb's, and Morrison's differs from Kane's, so does Tim Burton's. The only reason people seem to have a problem with the changes Burton made is because he did it on the screen. Batman Returns IS a Batman movie, and probably one of the best we'll ever see.
Eliot Goldenthal's score for Batman Forever is the best in the series though. And it's the sole reason I can't hate on the film too much.
That's a great scene. Keaton and Pfeiffer had great chemistry.Probably my favorite scene of the film and puts it at the top of the series for me:
YouTube - Batman Returns - "Does This Mean We Have to Start Fighting?"
Batman, at his most interesting, has always been a hypocrite though. 'One rule for me, another for them.'How he relishes in killing the strong-man guy with a bomb only to convince Selina to not kill Schreck at the end? What?.
Batman, at his most interesting, has always been a hypocrite though. 'One rule for me, another for them.'
It seems that Burton's Batman had a 'no kill' policy until the revelation that the Joker was in fact Napier pushed him over the edge. Perhaps he had an epiphany at the ball, realising what he had become and that Selina was headed down the same path?
One of the few things Batman Forever did right:
Bruce Wayne: So, you're willing to take a life.
Dick Grayson: Long as it's Two-Face.
Bruce Wayne: Then it will happen this way: You make the kill, but your pain doesn't die with Harvey, it grows. So you run out into the night to find another face, and another, and another, until one terrible morning you wake up and realize that revenge has become your whole life. And you won't know why.
Again, Returns is a fantastic film with solid performances and interesting characterizations, but as a Batman film, fails in how it portrays Bruce Wayne and Batman (How he relishes in killing the strong-man guy with a bomb only to convince Selina to not kill Schreck at the end? What?). As far as adaptations go, it fails to connect it to the core ideas of the source material, but instead presents a series of interesting relationships that would be better suited for something else. It neither adds or detracts from the iconography of Batman.
Like much of the film, there's a real sense of solitude and melancholy.
I can't disagree with anything you've said here. It is just such a good film that I personally can overlook problems in faithfulness to source material. I can certainly understand why so many people won't.
As great as the plot was, it's clear the movie was focused on emotions. Some of the facial expressions and dramatic pauses are so heartbreaking. The music and winter setting give it almost a dark fairy tale feel. The tragedy of the film is that the three main characters are damaged people and in the end what allowed them to survive is what ultimately will keep them alone. There is no happy ending and I suppose that contributes in part to why it isn't as well liked.
Just got my hands on a whole bunch of Elseworlds, one-shot, and random comics, including the new Reborn/Death of Batman storyline stuff. Can't wait to read.
Maybe you'll find a world where you're not a fucking geek.