Spain Unveils Controversial Gay Marriage Law

[AussieU2fanman]

As for Aussie....homosexuality is not something you catch. Have you ever considered that your cousin says he was converted to avoid your obvious scorn? Perhaps to him it is better to be thought "converted" to homosexuality than to admit, especially in light of your attitude, that he actually is gay.

Sexuality is malleable, it's not fixed. Just like my sexual preference on the ideal woman can change, my preference regarding gender can also change, sparked by reasons in previous posts, and the fuse IMO should not be exposed.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Somebody is sick with a bacterial infection, it is treated with an antibacterial agent however a very small ammount of the bacteria have an immunity to this agent. These survive the treatment and grow exponentially, them and all their offspring are resistant and when this infection is treated the antibacterial agent is innefective.

As for large scale evolution I suggest looking over the gradual progression of life on the planet, from the first archaea through to vertebrates, how over time species change and diversify in respone to population pressures. Add in a lot of time (3.9 billion years) these minor changes really add up. It is unwise to attempt to cloud your understanding of the world with ignorance because some may dictate faith means you must be dumb, understand the world in all of its complexities for what it is - you may find that that appreciating "Gods work" through understanding is better than ignoring it to uphold superstition. Basically God (if such an entity exists) would not have favoured sentient life forms to come into being and allow them to have intelligence but then forbid them to use it.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What do you mean ideal woman change, I like slight brunettes most and it hasn't changed - no matter what is cool. Sexuality for most people really is pretty static, live and love - thats what makes life great.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Put it this way, my ideal partner changed from Cameron Diaz to Jessica Alba. For whatever reason, my sexual preference in that sense changed. I don't care for Cameron's type anymore, Alba's the wave of the future! And who knows, through some immoral promotion, it may change from Jessica Alba to Dean Cain.
Sexuality\preference can't be set in stone. If I was born into a family of bears, never seeing any humans, I wouldn't be fantacizing about my Brown hair-5ft11 chick, I would probably at my favourite bear.

 

[indra]

your argument seems to fall a little short. surely if you looked far enough, you might find an instance or two where someone engaged in homosexual sex thinking that there were no harm in doing so, and ended up hurting others. wait, you already did point some of those instances out. i guess that rules out the statement "nothing...argues that being gay somehow harms society--ever."

If your argument is correct then no one should have sex. Period. Because there are instances where people (even straight people ) have sexual relations and hurt someone. Therefore, all sexual relations should be banned! Get thee to a monastary, shrmn8rpoptart!

And trust me, the daughter of a closeted gay man, far more damage is done to people by the continued supression of basic freedoms for all, than by gay people getting married to other gay people. Lets face it, a gay person isn't going to become straight because society frowns on homosexuality. More likely, that person will engage in secretive and dangerous behaviour, which actually damages real people.

And, of course, as paxetaurora pointed out, some people (of any and all persuasions) are just bastards.

And as to the stop light analogy -- in my area, at night, even the police advocate stopping at red lights, checking to see if there is any traffic, and if there is none, driving on through. Too many carjackings...it's safer to technically run the light than to stay still.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

Somebody is sick with a bacterial infection, it is treated with an antibacterial agent however a very small ammount of the bacteria have an immunity to this agent. These survive the treatment and grow exponentially, them and all their offspring are resistant and when this infection is treated the antibacterial agent is innefective.

As for large scale evolution I suggest looking over the gradual progression of life on the planet, from the first archaea through to vertebrates, how over time species change and diversify in respone to population pressures. Add in a lot of time (3.9 billion years) these minor changes really add up. It is unwise to attempt to cloud your understanding of the world with ignorance because some may dictate faith means you must be dumb, understand the world in all of its complexities for what it is - you may find that that appreciating "Gods work" through understanding is better than ignoring it to uphold superstition. Basically God (if such an entity exists) would not have favoured sentient life forms to come into being and allow them to have intelligence but then forbid them to use it.

by no means am i denying anyone the right to use their intelligence. you are the one who seems to be making the assumption that as soon as someone believes that there is a higher power that exists outside of the system of nature, that they have suddenly discarded all reason, and rely soley on superstition. God has not forbid people to use their intelligence, he gives them every right to use it, and actually encourages it. but, from the way you argue, the conclusion of human reason in regards to scientific theory must be absolute truth. the fact is, they are not. all you need to do is look back through the ages at all the scientific truths that have been discarded, even though, at the time, they were thought to be "the truth". it is the fallacy of every period in human reason to believe that they have finally discovered what the absolute truth is.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Scientific discovery discards theories and adopts new ones as greater knowledge is attained is why it is the most reasonable pursuit for humanity. Science deals with facts, not truths - if you wish to doubt scientific facts then I invite you to drink a glass of H2SO4 while believing that it is H2O.

Absolute truth may not be attained through science, as there may be no such thing. But objective discovery to understand the universe and our place within it is a lot better than beginning with an assumption that lacks any evidence and cannot be verified.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Truth is subjective. Fact, as pursuited by science, is objective. I'm sorry, but how the hell does homosexuality tie into this?

 

[indra]

Sexuality is malleable, it's not fixed. Just like my sexual preference on the ideal woman can change, my preference regarding gender can also change, sparked by reasons in previous posts, and the fuse IMO should not be exposed.

Umm...but you are still talking about females, just because your current fancy doesn't look exactly like your former crush doesn't mean you have had a fundamental change in sexual preference.

I think your homophobia stems from fear not logic...in fact that fear is very palpable. And I'm sorry you have such fear, because I feel it is stifling logic in you. It's interesting to me that you admonish people to use logic in dealing with religious/faith issues, but you are unable to follow your own advice. Do a little research (honest research, not just that of those who agree with you), and maybe your fear will subside a bit.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

i don't believe that any Christian has ever argued that God exists whether or not they believe He does. it would be outright idiotic for anyone (Christians included) to drink sulfuric acid while operating on the belief that if they believed the acid was water, it would be water. however, if you had given me the h2so4, and told me that after you had run conclusive scientific tests on it (and for the sake of argument, you actually had, but somehow made a misjudgement somewhere along the line), and determined it was h2o, would it not be just as foolhardy for me to simply accept the science that you used in order to reach this conclusion?

in other words, science cannot be discarded outright, but it cannot also be taken without a healthy dose of suspision. (it's late, i can't remember how to spell)

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

We had life on this planet before there was sexes, the first organisms were gay

and that is what started the tangent we're on now to answer aussie's question

 

[A_Wanderer]

There is good science and bad science, in general objective discovery is a much better thing than asssumptions about the exitence of higher beings. I am not saying that there is no God - but when we deal with life on earth there is no logical reason to abandon one of the greatest scientific discoveries on the subject because there are those on earth who feel that they know everything about the way God operates.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

i don't agree with those who claim to know everything about how God works. i know relatively little about how God works, but i believe that scientific research and discovery is one the tools by which He reveals Himself to us.

(preparing to get ripped apart for this statement by all sides... )

whatever though, it's one in the morning, time for sleep

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Umm...but you are still talking about females, just because your current fancy doesn't look exactly like your former crush doesn't mean you have had a fundamental change in sexual preference.

I think your homophobia stems from fear not logic...in fact that fear is very palpable. And I'm sorry you have such fear, because I feel it is stifling logic in you. It's interesting to me that you admonish people to use logic in dealing with religious/faith issues, but you are unable to follow your own advice. Do a little research (honest research, not just that of those who agree with you), and maybe your fear will subside a bit.

Oh please, I'm not full yet, Please continue shoving words in my mouth! I am not a homophobe! I am not scared of homosexuals or their lifestyle! This is happening too much on this forum, please stop saying things that aren't true. I never EVER made any indication that I feared homosexuals and that I was a homophobe myself. This is just getting annoying now.
And no, try and seperate 'crush' and 'sexual preference.' I know what a crush is, and it is quite different from what we perceive as ideal partners. Blah Blah Blah, I've said all this before.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Guy's let's just make this very clear. Just because someone see's homosexuality as morally wrong, it does not mean they are homophobes and fear gay's. What is so difficult to understand?

 

[A_Wanderer]

You are getting extremely tetchy over this, being a homophobe does not mean that you are just scared of gay people. It means that you harbour a resentment towards them because of their sexuality. I personally don't like using the word because it has all the PC crap associated with it and its there to label.

 

[indra]

Oh please, I'm not full yet, Please continue shoving words in my mouth! I am not a homophobe! I am not scared of homosexuals or their lifestyle! This is happening too much on this forum, please stop saying things that aren't true. I never EVER made any indication that I feared homosexuals and that I was a homophobe myself. This is just getting annoying now.
And no, try and seperate 'crush' and 'sexual preference.' I know what a crush is, and it is quite different from what we perceive as ideal partners. Blah Blah Blah, I've said all this before.

You fear you will be molded into a homosexual -- you don't have to say it in those specific words, it's very clear without you coming right out and saying "I fear that I will be turned into a homosexual" (see quotes from several of you posts in this thread -- all just ooze fear). The very fact that you believe "people" can be converted into homosexuals shows great fear. Trust me, honey, I've dealt with this. People either are homosexual (or bisexual) or they aren't -- it's not a disease anyone is going to catch.

As for your cousin being in a loving heterosexual relationship...well my parents had the perfect looking marriage too. Three kids. Surely no homosexual man would ever have three children! Hahaha! Well, he did, in part because of the hatred of people like you. He felt he had to be "normal" and he tried, he really tried, but he was gay. Period. And no amount of trying would EVER change that. If he couldn't turn into a heterosexual, then a real heterosexual can NEVER be turned into a homosexual. He tried to hide his true self anf that hurt everyone around him. And you know what? He should never have felt the need to hide. You want homosexuals to be second class citizens because you fear they will target you and destroy the fabric of society. Bullshit! Pure unadulterated bullshit!

Making people conform to your beliefs on this issue is no better than requiring you to fake being a good church going boy. Should you have fewer rights in your country than Christians? Well?? I'm sure you are saying "No way! What the fuck is she thinking?" But isn't Christianity a big part of the social fabric of western culture? Wouldn't we all get along better if we were all Christians?

And Jessica Alba is merely a crush, current fancy, flavor of the week, whatever. The fact is your sexual preference hasn't changed, no matter that you like one type of female over another type of female -- they both are female.

See below for quotes from several of your posts in this thread.... The first set if from your very first post in this thread. Pay particular attention to the part in bold.

I have some second hand experience as my cousin who knew he was never actually gay turned gay about a year ago....
I GUARANTEE he wouldn't have turned gay if being gay wasn't becoming so socially acceptable and 'cool.' ....
I don't think I'll be able to live in a society like that. It sickens me to the stomach. It's immoral and unethical and it is downright spitting in the face of God's laws.
You can live out a gay life, just don't violate the sanctity of marriage that is EXCLUSIVELY between a man and a women by getting married to the same sex! And the media should stop converting straight people to gay people. That is just ridiculous. Keep homosexuality to a minority of people. Don't give them equal rights as straight people in the form of marriage. The media and all the new gay rights are fucking up society. Just leave the real homosexuals the way they are and stop trying to turn people like me into homosexuals!

There are flaws in our nature, even though we are born with them, it doesn't make it okay. No we are NOT all born equal, that's the biggest load of shit I've heard. Now, I think that the idea of a man having a sexual relationship with another man is sickening. It is a flaw in their human nature. This goes against the moral fibres in my body

What I don't like is that if we can't deal with an issue, we just accept it and label it as 'okay.' That's living in a fantasy world. We should admit that people aren't equal and 'the same' in this world because we are only lying to ourselves. And if we see something as bad and we can't change it, don't just accept it and encourage it, that is living a false reality.

Gays are our equals according to you? They have the same rights?

 

[indra]

Guy's let's just make this very clear. Just because someone see's homosexuality as morally wrong, it does not mean they are homophobes and fear gay's. What is so difficult to understand?

Sorry hon, but you come and spew hatred, you are going to get taken to task. Your posts show great hate bred by irrational fear. If you replaced homosexual or gay in your posts with the word atheist you would maybe be able to see the fear and irrationality of your argument. But I doubt that will happen.

To anyone else offended by my last couple of posts...sorry, but I have seen and felt firsthand what such bigotry can do to people, and I can't help but be very angry.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Agreed, I do not think that anybody should be discriminated against on the basis of sexuality. I doubt that anybody here can convince them to the opposite point of view on the matter, all that it takes is experience and self reflection.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

So what you're saying is that deep down I am actually gay? I can assure you, I am very comfortable with my sexuality and nothing will change that (I'm not easily turned or convinced). Although people's sexuality can change with respect to gender, just like any other part of ourselves, I am not one of those people who can be turned, that I know.
"You want homosexuals to be second class citizens because you fear they will target you and destroy the fabric of society. Bullshit! Pure unadulterated bullshit!"
Once again, I never even gave an indication that I fear homosexuals will target me. I'm not even sure what you mean by that exactly. I will be very uncomfortable in a society where such immoralities (I believe) are occuring. That's all it boils down to. I am not fearing anything. I am not ignorant. I believe homosexuality is a flaw in human nature (genuine homosexuals), which sparks immoral behaviour between two of the same sex. Irrespective whether they can help it or not, it is still immoral. Nobody is perfect. What is so hard to understand?

I believe that society is structured in a way that there is freedom, but that freedom must be restricted. Lines have to be drawn otherwise chaos breaks out. If homosexuality, a flaw in nature, is encouraged in the form of marriage and widespread social acceptance, we will see an outbreak in gay couples, many that aren't even gay, to create a society mixed with an unhealthy ratio of straight and gay couples. Who here can HONESTLY say, I mean, really honestly say that they don't see a problem with that. I for one, find it disgusting, and it just goes to show which direction our society is headed. There needs to be restrictions. Let's say I want to walk around naked, it's part of my nature, but it will offend people as people find it immoral. Just like I find homosexuality immoral.

In relation to that quote in bold, what point are you trying to make? Isn't that what the media is doing, by encouraging homosexuality? Intentially or a side-effect it doesn't matter. And with this gay rights bullshit, it's only adding fuel to the fire. I believe I won't be turned into a homosexual, I believe I am immune to such things in the media, I love my girlfriend, but I believe, like with the instance with my cousin, that it can happen. I had a close relationship with him, and I can assure you he was hetro before, he made that very clear.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Sorry hon, but you come and spew hatred, you are going to get taken to task. Your posts show great hate bred by irrational fear. If you replaced homosexual or gay in your posts with the word atheist you would maybe be able to see the fear and irrationality of your argument. But I doubt that will happen.

To anyone else offended by my last couple of posts...sorry, but I have seen and felt firsthand what such bigotry can do to people, and I can't help but be very angry.

Alright close this topic mods. I am tired of this shit. I am not 'spewing hatred!' I don't approve of some people's behaviour, I don't hate them! I never even mentioned hatred towards homosexuals. Also you did the same thing with the 'fear' comment. I made that quite clear that I do not fear them. We are just going around and around in circles and I am repeating myself and correcting major misinterpretations\(the fact that people don't read my posts) TOO much. Mods can we please close this topic?

 

[A_Wanderer]

freedom must be restricted

And this is the fundamental flaw of your logic, freedom is not to be restricted (unless of course it injurs anybody). Such a statement is contrary to the principles of liberty.

You believe that you cannot be turned gay, thats just fine because I agree with you. You are not some sort of superman who can resist gay propaganda - people have a sexuality and it is very hard to change or quite simply a straight guy cannot get a hard on for men.

Now your cousin may have been so overtly hetero because he was overcompensating. It has been known to happen, also in sometimes more tragic circumstances such supression of ones feeling leads to depression and ultimately suicide.

A society that can overcome such petty predjudice is one that I would like to live in. Where people can live their lives freely. What you advocate is not freedom, it is slight opression. I do not think that it is logical to disallow such a practice which does not injure anybody, Can you provide me a reason based on logic that homosexual relationships are inherently wrong? If you choose the most obvious procreation argument then is it not also wrong to have a childless married couple?

 

[pax]

your argument seems to fall a little short. surely if you looked far enough, you might find an instance or two where someone engaged in homosexual sex thinking that there were no harm in doing so, and ended up hurting others. wait, you already did point some of those instances out. i guess that rules out the statement "nothing...argues that being gay somehow harms society--ever."

You didn't read closely enough. I said that being gay, in and of it itself, causes no harm. Again, that doesn't mean that issues related to homosexuality can't be harmful--it just means that gayness, all by itself, is not a reason to panic.

 

[A_Wanderer]

If I looked hard enough I could find somebody injuring another person with a rubber chicken, I hardly think that such extremely rare instances would represent any more of a danger than that posed by heterosexual relationships. This is not advocating an "if it feels good do it" society, I believe that if we can acknowledge loving relationships between people the world can be a better place. The progression towards acceptance of such things will take time - but it is an inevitability. Mankind has always been able to divide because of race and gender, today (in the western world) one of the last remaining barriers is sexuality - how will breaking this down be a bad thing for sociert. During the civil rights movement many of the same arguments could have been put forward about having negro's integrate into what where once higher stations. It is a simple matter of civil rights, this is nowhere near as big an issue as race or gender equality - it is really a non-issue that is blown out of proportion by some of the more outspoken opponents.

Two questions and you may see the paradox that you build up here.

Do you believe in equality for all, yes/no

Homosexuals should be entitled to said equality, yes/no

Do we really need a morality police making sure that immoral acts do not take place, that peversions of nature are banned. Where would such a system end - because as we know banning public expression homosexuality does not end it, it merely drives it underground and back into being a subculture, again. I would not want to live in a society where such an illogical moral code were enforce upon the populus - where would it end? Would I be dragged away for having an Asian girlfriend?

Here is a good question for you, is something like masturbation as immoral as homosexuality? It serves no purpose for procreation and its criteria are match up pretty well.

 

[pax]

BTW, I don't feel that this thread needs to be closed. There's some productive argument going on here, and it seems that people are restraining themselves pretty well from personal attacks, given the nature of this subject.

That said, I and the other mods will be watching this thread closely to prevent derailment and flaming.

 

[pax]

One more thing: I don't think you've adequately explained how, while you believe that gays are actively trying to "convert" straights and that they might be trying to convert you and your loved ones, that is not homophobic. I'm not saying you are homophobic, or that you hate gays, or anything. I don't know what's in your heart. But I would like to know how a belief that is pretty irrational, IMHO, doesn't qualify as homophobic.

 

[Anthony]

I think pax has the right idea.

Everybody keep it cool, though.

Ant.

 

[AcrobatMan]

gays
straight
bisexual

ASEXUAL

 

[joyfulgirl]

gays
straight
bisexual

ASEXUAL

don't forget trisexual (will try anything)

 

[pianorocker]

Hooray for España. I wish the US would get its act together.