Which one are you ?

[Macfistowannabe]

Yes, or you could also be killing the next Hitler. You don't know any of that kind of stuff before the birth takes place.

Angela

So you're acknowledging that it IS killing? You don't know everything about the baby, but what you do know with ultrasound is that it has human emotions and movements.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

and a condum would have the same effect

as would spilling your seed

give me a break

If you wouldn't mind being a little more direct and elaborate your point of view, perhaps it would contribute more to the discussion.

 

[deep]

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
and to think, you could be killing the person who could cure cancer.

birth control pills could have prevented an Eienstein, etc. from being concieved

anything that interferes with conception and a full term pregnacy could prevent the person who could cure cancer from being born

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, it prevents an "Eienstein" from being conceived, but if "Eienstein" was conceived, I think "Eienstein" should be born.

 

[deep]

this really is not and either or question for a lot of people


many people suppot the right for someone to end a pregnancy in the very early stages only

but would not do it themselves

 

[Scarletwine]

Choice

Also Viagra is covered by most insurance and birth control pills are not. Stupid.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Viagra is covered by most insurance and birth control pills are not. Stupid.

I agree with this.

 

[BAW]

Choice

Also Viagra is covered by most insurance and birth control pills are not. Stupid.

Thank you for bringing that up. It is stupid. Even Medicare covers Viagra so while we're making sure our senior citizens are able to have strong, long lasting erections, birth control for women is still not covered by most insurance plans. And strangly enough, most plans DO cover elective abortions.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

this really is not and either or question for a lot of people


many people suppot the right for someone to end a pregnancy in the very early stages only

but would not do it themselves

I could not possibly watch an entire abortion take place and think "Well, I'd never do that, but it should be her choice."

 

[BVS]

You don't know everything about the baby, but what you do know with ultrasound is that it has human emotions and movements.

Human emotion seen by ultrasound? Interesting...

I saw an ultrasound once and all I saw was a spot that looked like a bean.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

So you're acknowledging that it IS killing?

I think it's killing, but killing off of cells, not a full-fledged human, since it isn't one yet.

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
You don't know everything about the baby, but what you do know with ultrasound is that it has human emotions and movements.

Movements, yes, but emotions? And even so, that stuff still won't determine whether it'll be able to cure cancer or be the next Hitler.

Angela

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I saw an ultrasound once and all I saw was a spot that looked like a bean.

So it's not a human, it's a bean? I don't buy it.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I think it's killing, but killing off of cells, not a full-fledged human, since it isn't one yet.

It has developing to do, but it is still a moving human being.

Movements, yes, but emotions? And even so, that stuff still won't determine whether it'll be able to cure cancer or be the next Hitler.

You still don't know if it's going to be Hitler or Einstein at two years old.

Hopefully ultrasound isn't getting in the way too much:
http://www.massnews.com/2002_editions/01_Jan/12302preg.htm

Rod Murphy, director of Problem Pregnancy center in Worcester, told MassNews that they acquired their ultrasound machine very recently. He said, “Everything we thought is true. It works.” In December, five abortion-vulnerable mothers out of seven who received ultrasound exams decided to continue the pregnancy.

“There is a real change when a woman sees her baby. Even some of the guys have tears well up,” Murphy said.

 

[U2democrat]

the nickname for my niece was "little bean" after her first ultra sound. they do look like beans in the early stages.

 

[BVS]

So it's not a human, it's a bean? I don't buy it.

I said it looks like a bean, at the beginning stages a fetus looks like a bean. You're twisting words once again.

You still haven't shown the "fact" that we see human emotion.

The fact is that if you take a fetus out of a womb at 8 weeks it will not survive or develop on it's own, therefore it's not yet human.

 

[BVS]

Hopefully ultrasound isn't getting in the way too much:
http://www.massnews.com/2002_editions/01_Jan/12302preg.htm

Rod Murphy, director of Problem Pregnancy center in Worcester, told MassNews that they acquired their ultrasound machine very recently. He said, “Everything we thought is true. It works.” In December, five abortion-vulnerable mothers out of seven who received ultrasound exams decided to continue the pregnancy.

“There is a real change when a woman sees her baby. Even some of the guys have tears well up,” Murphy said.

That's great and I don't doubt it.

But your comment "Hopefully ultrasound isn't getting in the way too much:" is once again uncalled for. You're making the insinuation that we somehow want abortions to happen. And once again you couldn't be more wrong or insulting.

 

[Scarletwine]

This is starting on a train wreck.

Don't insuate. That fetus is over 3 months and that doesn't guarantee what kind of life they will have when their mothers didn't really want them.

 

[pax]

All right, things were going well here...let's all try to stay on the up-and-up.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

http://www.birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/early3.html

Q. Can our baby feel pain or become emotionally upset in the womb?

Medical specialists and psychologists never thought this would be possible even for a newborn baby, but research now confirms that even babies born very prematurely express a gamut of emotions, and, without doubt, can experience excruciating pain. Ultrasound observations of behavior in utero, especially among twins, reveal a spectrum of emotions including anger, fear, and affection. Babies appear to react to needles that intrude into the womb with a mixture of shock, withdrawal, and aggression. Studies of pregnant mothers watching upsetting videos suggest that babies can become upset along with their mothers. Several studies have revealed that babies tend to become depressed when their pregnant mothers are depressed, an effect which begins in the womb and has been measured after birth.

[...]

Q. Will the baby know if we are not getting along as a couple?

Although it is a new point of view among experts, studies of prenatal sensation, perception, and attachment suggest that babies know and feel more than we ever thought possible. Communication, rather than being simply verbal, is a holistic experience including the ebb and flow of love hormones and stress-reactions. Prenates have their own emotional life and are capable of disappointment, depression, anger, and fear. It is probably naïve for parents to think they could keep their relationship a secret from a baby in the womb.

 

[Irvine511]

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing
sing a soooooooooooooong
sing out looooooooooooooooooud
sing out stroooooooooooooooooooooong....



seems as much an argument as anything else right now.

 

[BVS]

http://www.birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/early3.html

Q. Can our baby feel pain or become emotionally upset in the womb?

Medical specialists and psychologists never thought this would be possible even for a newborn baby, but research now confirms that even babies born very prematurely express a gamut of emotions, and, without doubt, can experience excruciating pain. Ultrasound observations of behavior in utero, especially among twins, reveal a spectrum of emotions including anger, fear, and affection. Babies appear to react to needles that intrude into the womb with a mixture of shock, withdrawal, and aggression. Studies of pregnant mothers watching upsetting videos suggest that babies can become upset along with their mothers. Several studies have revealed that babies tend to become depressed when their pregnant mothers are depressed, an effect which begins in the womb and has been measured after birth.

[...]

Q. Will the baby know if we are not getting along as a couple?

Although it is a new point of view among experts, studies of prenatal sensation, perception, and attachment suggest that babies know and feel more than we ever thought possible. Communication, rather than being simply verbal, is a holistic experience including the ebb and flow of love hormones and stress-reactions. Prenates have their own emotional life and are capable of disappointment, depression, anger, and fear. It is probably naïve for parents to think they could keep their relationship a secret from a baby in the womb.

Ok but when?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Ok but when?

When it is in the womb. The exact time or amount of weeks is not mentioned, but the Q&A is still insightful and interesting.

From the same link:

Q. When does a baby's brain develop, and do we have to wait for this development before trying to communicate with our baby?

Around the third week after conception, a folding maneuver creates the neural tube from which the brain and spinal cord develop. If all goes well, a rapid, richly choreographed set of movements will put all the basic parts of the brain in place by eight weeks. These will not be replaced. From this foundation, brain parts will send out branches and establish billions of connections necessary for the perfect coordination of the entire nervous system. This process will continue for years after birth. Amazingly, the brain, like the heart, remains active during its own construction. Various experiences the brain has during this period including encounters with food, drink, medicine, games, accidents, and nicotine--will actually determine its final size and organization. Therefore, it is best to assume the brain is already working and to love your baby and communicate with it without any waiting period.

 

[MissMoo]

Interesting how Macfistowannabe derailed the interesting poll. Unfortunately most of his "facts" are from a religious point of view. There is no concensus on when "human" life begins. Life begins at conception, but it is a current religious view that that is the same as a humans life. Also, your Christian religions have believed in abortion up to forty days into pregnancy, at least that's what I've read.

Obviously I'm pro choice. And please drop the women are depressed after abortion, it's very condescending.

 

[BVS]

When it is in the womb. The exact time or amount of weeks is not mentioned

Well that's kinda the point I'm making.

The majority of your "facts" aren't facts at all.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

It has developing to do, but it is still a moving human being.

Ditto what BVS said about it not being a human yet.

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
You still don't know if it's going to be Hitler or Einstein at two years old.

Exactly. That's what I'm getting at-neither side should use the argument "Well, it could grow up to be the next so-and-so" (I only used the Hitler example when responding to you to show how that argument is, in my opinion, a rather pointless one-no offense) as a way of supporting their stance on this issue, because neither side can claim to know that in advance.

Also, at Irvine's post...that commercial cracks me up .

Angela

 

[Klink]

I think the responses so far ignore the social implications of this debate, which I think have been the ultimate determining factor...at least politically. Before I can agree to believe that abortion should be illegal, I would like to know what business the government has in telling a woman what to do with her body, which the fetus relies on for survival?


Most importantly, I think it's important to point out that the scientific "evidence" displayed so far is not really evidence for either side at all. What is being used as "evidence" are the interpretations about what these results mean and how we should react as a society. There no ultimate logic or reason that can successfully bridge the gap between the moral absolutism of "pro-life" and the scientific evidence presented. It's all in how one interprets (a) the evidence and arguments and (b) how we as a community feel we should react to this interpretation. To me the reliance on personal interpretation and emotion suggests that moral absolutism is probably a disposable position. This debate has been reduced to a matter of one's interpretation of the means and goals of society. That being the case HERE, what grounds do we have for telling someone what they can do HERE? The absence of something self-evident in this debate is exactly why abortion cannot be considered anything but just that...a matter of opinion - choice.

To conclude, I'd like to throw in two more criticisms of the "pro-life" argument. One, they contain certain theistic assumptions, the most obvious of which pertains to the sacred nature of human life, which certainly lacks jusitifcation. It also contains the anthropocentric assumption that human life is superior to other life forms that we kill which, again, no matter what you believe, is not justified.

A restriction on freedom requires sound logic, at the very least. Unless there is some imperative argument requiring abortion to be treated as murder (and i cannot think of one), then I'm not sure there's an imperative to restirct a woman's right to exercise her freedom...especially over her own body. Does the government have the right to dictate what happens in the womb? I'm not in favour, given the arguments so far.

Jon

 

[Irvine511]

i wish we could argue as passionately about health care.

 

[U2democrat]

amen. we get nowhere with abortion arguments. we could get somewhere with healthcare.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Pro-choice.

 

[cardosino]

Pro life or Pro choice ?

I'm pro choice

It's not that easy. You need to put some more parameters on it.

Are you pro-choice 1 week before the delivery date ? Are you pro-life in case of incest/rape by HIV-infected person ?