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Old 06-22-2020, 03:39 PM   #801
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Endless material

https://twitter.com/i/status/1274772592746848256
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Old 06-22-2020, 03:43 PM   #802
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Two more Trump campaign lead team members have tested positive. They were there for days in advance and during the rally. That makes 8.
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Old 06-22-2020, 03:44 PM   #803
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His legacy and the war has been politicised to such an extent (by the right) in the UK, it's a source of great harm with the UK trying to remove itself from the vestiges of imperialism (the blitz spirit gets trotted out at any time of crisis when it is largely a fabrication) and it gets used to minimise anyone elses contribution to the war (like Churchill single handedly saved Europe, no that was mainly the RAF, soilders and a lot of Russians.)

I really do think its rightful place in the museum where you can understand the good and the considerable bad. It is rare for statues of historical figures (though Churchill has an enduring legacy in the how the modern world has been formed) to convey any of that, they just sit in prominent positions in the spaces of our towns and cities which just adds one particular narrative of their lives and especially since much of Britain's dubious past is not taught at schools here, not even comparatively near stuff like Britain's role in Ireland.

Time generally shows that statues are very political in why they are where they are and sometimes we just need to move on. And many statues like myths need to be toppled at some point. Anyway we don't have a lot of respect for figures of imperial Britain in West Belfast...As kids we used to shove cigarette butts up the nose of the queen vic statue outside our main hospital
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Old 06-22-2020, 04:35 PM   #804
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Ouch, yeah. But Aww, my poor Mets.

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The only black Nascar driver gets a noose placed in his garage stall. Because he wore a Black Lives Matter shirt and put the words on his car? And of course just because he's black. Probably anger about Nascar getting rid of the Confederate flag too.

Goes even beyond politics, but this is the disgusting state of affairs under orange in chief. MAGA.
As someone said on DU "his dog whistle has turned into a foghorn. "


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Same people who put the noose there would probably say that the confederate flag and statues are “about heritage, not hate!”
I've heard THAT enough!

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I for one can't believe that there are racists involved in NASCAR
I'm clutching mah pearls
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Old 06-22-2020, 04:36 PM   #805
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Speaking as someone who was at Penn State from 2009 to 2013, I think people should probably just get out of the statue business entirely.
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Old 06-22-2020, 04:38 PM   #806
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His legacy and the war has been politicised to such an extent (by the right) in the UK, it's a source of great harm with the UK trying to remove itself from the vestiges of imperialism (the blitz spirit gets trotted out at any time of crisis when it is largely a fabrication) and it gets used to minimise anyone elses contribution to the war (like Churchill single handedly saved Europe, no that was mainly the RAF, solders and a lot of Russians.)

I really do think its rightful place in the museum where you can understand the good and the considerable bad. It is rare for statues of historical figures (though Churchill has an enduring legacy in the how the modern world has been formed) to convey any of that, they just sit in prominent positions in the spaces of our towns and cities which just adds one particular narrative of their lives and especially since much of Britain's dubious past is not taught at schools here, not even comparatively near stuff like Britain's role in Ireland.

Time generally shows that statues are very political in why they are where they are and sometimes we just need to move on. And many statues like myths need to be toppled at some point. Anyway we don't have a lot of respect for figures of imperial Britain in West Belfast...As kids we used to shove cigarette butts up the nose of the queen vic statue outside our main hospital


So well put.
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Old 06-22-2020, 04:44 PM   #807
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His legacy and the war has been politicised to such an extent (by the right) in the UK, it's a source of great harm with the UK trying to remove itself from the vestiges of imperialism (the blitz spirit gets trotted out at any time of crisis when it is largely a fabrication) and it gets used to minimise anyone elses contribution to the war (like Churchill single handedly saved Europe, no that was mainly the RAF, solders and a lot of Russians.)

I really do think its rightful place in the museum where you can understand the good and the considerable bad. It is rare for statues of historical figures (though Churchill has an enduring legacy in the how the modern world has been formed) to convey any of that, they just sit in prominent positions in the spaces of our towns and cities which just adds one particular narrative of their lives and especially since much of Britain's dubious past is not taught at schools here, not even comparatively near stuff like Britain's role in Ireland.

Time generally shows that statues are very political in why they are where they are and sometimes we just need to move on. And many statues like myths need to be toppled at some point. Anyway we don't have a lot of respect for figures of imperial Britain in West Belfast...As kids we used to shove cigarette butts up the nose of the queen vic statue outside our main hospital
Agree with this. And context cuts both ways. People want to discuss the context of historical figures who did shitty things and/or held shitty views, but the context of how those same figures are portrayed also matters. A prominently placed statue of Churchill, for example, can easily be viewed as a thumb in the eye to Indian people, as Churchill's role in the Bengal Famine, and in fact the UK's role as a whole, is largely whitewashed.
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Old 06-22-2020, 04:58 PM   #808
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Thanks, LJT for your info, and POV

And how r u doing? We here in NYC are just starting phase 2 openings. If you want to reply go to the pandemic thread. Stay safe.
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Old 06-22-2020, 05:03 PM   #809
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Oh, that one.

I think my favorite is ?barabus.
Hail to the Chief in Minor key. Bwaaahahahhaaaaaa!

Didn't realize till nearer the end. It just sounded sad. Then I was - "wait...is...that..?"
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Old 06-22-2020, 05:10 PM   #810
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i'm for looking at statues, and history, critically, and with context, and with understanding that hindsight is real and that bad people do good things, and vice versa.

it's difficult for me, as an outsider, to offer much commentary on a UK-specific lens and LJT's post is well-taken, and i would be quite interested to hear conversations in the UK about coming to terms with it's colonialist history. as an aside, i have two friends from Belgium, and it feels like, from what i can gather in my limited French, there's a coming to terms with what they did in Congo. it's fascinating, and a nice way to broaden the scope of BLM to something beyond the narrowness of US policing culture.

looking at US history, there's a big difference, to me, in toppling a statue erected specifically to terrorize black people and a statue erected to honor the good things a bad person may have done. it feels fairly obvious that the Jefferson Memorial is about the Declaration of Independence, which isn't invalidated, but is complicated, by the fact that Jefferson owned slaves. FDR locked up Japanese Americans. he also did some good things too.

cancelation/removal prevents that conversation from even happening.

but then, confederate statues in a public square should absolutely be cancelled/removed because their intent was to celebrate not just the bad reasons for the Confederacy, but also to terrorize black people.

so, really, we need to exercise critical judgment and use cancellation/removal narrowly.
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Old 06-22-2020, 05:36 PM   #811
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Isn't the conversation over the statues only happening because they are being taken down? Many statues stand for decades without provoking anything other than the pigeons to sit on them.

It is like the Colston statue in Bristol which was thrown in the river, no one was discussing his crimes against humanity until it was torn down (just in case missed in the US he was a massive slaver but heavily invested in buildings and such around Bristol). Most people in Bristol before this couldn't have even really told you why his statue was up other than his name was on lots of stuff.

It doesn't sanitise history by removing a statue, nobody is banning anyone learning about Jefferson good or bad likewise with Churchill from books or documentaries where they can all be discussed in the correct context. Cities and towns are not history books, they should be an extension of the communities that live in them (though there is an issue where many European cities are little more than open air museums these days, I think that is a sad and bad thing but different discussion). It wasn't the communities that pined for or erected these statues but often members of the ruling political classes that decided this is what should be celebrated.

But ultimately the statues wouldn't be such a big deal if more was being done to tackle structural racism in societies, but as a symbol of that, they are probably the only structure people feel they can take down sufficiently fast enough to feel like something is happening or being done.
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Old 06-22-2020, 06:24 PM   #812
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Without having a ton to add to this album discussion in terms of informative historical context, I think it's valuable to suggest that we not shame anyone for iconoclasm or reactions to it. These are valuable discussions that our ancestors will benefit from; history curricula are shaped by what we prioritize, and now is as good an opportunity as any to make those value judgments. Would we rather be remembered for conquest or grace? Strength or humanity?

I hope we can all learn to accept that change, uncomfortable change, is a consequence of fresh understanding.
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Old 06-22-2020, 07:02 PM   #813
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FRAUD!!!

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Old 06-22-2020, 07:15 PM   #814
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BYPASS THE TYRANNY OF ANTlFA BY VOTING FROM HOME

EXERCISE YOUR CIVIC DUTY TO VOTE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP

DON'T BE LIKE THE SNOWFLAKES IN TULSA

MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, AGAIN!
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Old 06-22-2020, 07:23 PM   #815
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McEnany actually defended Trump's use of the racist term Kung Flu. She did so in response to the Asian reporter from CBS who called Trump out weeks ago- Weijia Jiang.

Barely made the news that he said that in Tulsa.
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Old 06-22-2020, 07:43 PM   #816
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The only black Nascar driver gets a noose placed in his garage stall. Because he wore a Black Lives Matter shirt and put the words on his car? And of course just because he's black. Probably anger about Nascar getting rid of the Confederate flag too.

Goes even beyond politics, but this is the disgusting state of affairs under orange in chief. MAGA.
Utterly horrifying. I hope they find the asshole who did that as soon as humanly possible and throw the book at him.

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It's a really tricky situation. You've seen statues of Julius Caesar toppled - at some point we have to ask what is part of our cultural heritage and maybe preserve some in museums/galleries versus what has little artistic value and is prominently displayed in places where the public gathers and does little more than stir up controversy.

We in the west also don't really understand the effects of colonialism in other parts of the world. What the British did in the Indian subcontinent was repulsive and not talked about enough. If people in India our South Africa don't want statues of Winston Churchill to be up, then we should defer to them. Arguing against it is nothing more than semantics to us, but to them it represents ongoing inequalities and strife within their society.
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I really do think its rightful place in the museum where you can understand the good and the considerable bad. It is rare for statues of historical figures (though Churchill has an enduring legacy in the how the modern world has been formed) to convey any of that, they just sit in prominent positions in the spaces of our towns and cities which just adds one particular narrative of their lives and especially since much of Britain's dubious past is not taught at schools here, not even comparatively near stuff like Britain's role in Ireland.

Time generally shows that statues are very political in why they are where they are and sometimes we just need to move on. And many statues like myths need to be toppled at some point. Anyway we don't have a lot of respect for figures of imperial Britain in West Belfast...As kids we used to shove cigarette butts up the nose of the queen vic statue outside our main hospital
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJT View Post
Isn't the conversation over the statues only happening because they are being taken down? Many statues stand for decades without provoking anything other than the pigeons to sit on them.

It is like the Colston statue in Bristol which was thrown in the river, no one was discussing his crimes against humanity until it was torn down (just in case missed in the US he was a massive slaver but heavily invested in buildings and such around Bristol). Most people in Bristol before this couldn't have even really told you why his statue was up other than his name was on lots of stuff.

It doesn't sanitise history by removing a statue, nobody is banning anyone learning about Jefferson good or bad likewise with Churchill from books or documentaries where they can all be discussed in the correct context. Cities and towns are not history books, they should be an extension of the communities that live in them (though there is an issue where many European cities are little more than open air museums these days, I think that is a sad and bad thing but different discussion). It wasn't the communities that pined for or erected these statues but often members of the ruling political classes that decided this is what should be celebrated.

But ultimately the statues wouldn't be such a big deal if more was being done to tackle structural racism in societies, but as a symbol of that, they are probably the only structure people feel they can take down sufficiently fast enough to feel like something is happening or being done.
I agree with all of these posts. Seriously, there are plenty of other ways to learn about these notable figures and this particular part of history, it seems beyond bizarre to me that people still think that by losing the statues all of that suddenly disappears or something (speaking in general terms, I know people here don't think that). I hope this whole thing with the statues does lead to a deeper discussion about how to better talk about these people and their actions in school, and books, and so on.

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Two more Trump campaign lead team members have tested positive. They were there for days in advance and during the rally. That makes 8.
Gee. Who could've possibly seen that coming?
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:41 PM   #817
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Mental decline

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...10912077680640

WOW! The Trump Rally gives
@FoxNews
the “LARGEST SATURDAY NIGHT AUDIENCE IN ITS HUSTORY”. Isn’t it amazing that virtually nobody in the Lamestream Media is reporting this rather major feat!
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Old 06-23-2020, 03:07 AM   #818
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Were people eating "hamberders" while watching Fox News, Trump?
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Old 06-23-2020, 10:41 AM   #819
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https://mobile.twitter.com/weijia/st...22015059615750
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Old 06-23-2020, 11:24 AM   #820
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Vanity Fair reporting that Pascale is most likely resigning. We shall see. I kinda hope not. I mean, he's been doing a bang up job so far...
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