US Politics XXIII: Law & Order SOU (Stupid Orange Unit) - Page 21 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-09-2020, 08:17 PM   #401
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,515
Local Time: 12:39 AM
“But her emails” worked because it played into the central argument against Hillary — she was corrupt and got to play by different rules than everyone else. It’s kind of exactly the same as “Kama is a cop” — it cuts to a core vulnerability, that isn’t actually fair and only works when you strip it of context. But that’s how it works.

I’m more inclined to take your criticism of Bro/Jacobin to heart. Like you, I also get extremely irritated with stereotypes, not least of which are American stereotypes. The “you people” attitude drives me bonkers.

In my mind, because we are talking about expressed political viewpoints, and because Bro/Hacobin seems so specific as a political identity, that it hasn’t struck me as judging someone by their race/gender. I’m not saying “white gays” or “feminists” or whatever.

But it’s clear that these terms are being received in a way I’m not intending so I will try not to use them.
__________________

Irvine511 is online now  
Old 06-09-2020, 08:54 PM   #402
More 5G Than Man
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 68,568
Local Time: 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
the jacobins were responsible for the reign of terror in the french revolution where tens of thousands of people were murdered by the state, so calling someone a jacobin is not all that far off from calling them a stalinist or a bolshevik or a nazi.

it's not some term that a magazine or twitter or whatever made up, it has actual historical meaning.
In this context, I took it to mean a stubborn ideological purist. Seems to mean something different colloquially depending on the country. Obviously its ties to the French Revolution are unflattering regardless.
__________________

LemonMelon is offline  
Old 06-09-2020, 09:22 PM   #403
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 12:39 AM
When we talk about life being better than than in 1984 (or whatever), it really doesn't make much sense unless you break it down. In terms of social progress and acceptance, we are infinitely better off. But DaveC has a very real point here.

Let's just take the case of the boomers - if you were entering the workplace between the early 70s and mid-80s in North America, you are certainly financially better off that the same people in this period of time. The house price to income ration was vastly different than it was today. And now somebody will step in with the typical "but interest rates were 18% and not 2.5%" - I'd rather have a high interest rate and a house that costs 1/10th because you can control the amount of interest you ultimately pay. On top of that most boomers had very generous defined benefit pensions plans (properly valuated at about 25% of your annual salary). My generation (I am 40) only has them to the extent they are in the public sector and I doubt my kids' generation will even know what a DBPP is. Then we go to post-secondary education - not only was it cheap/almost free but there was no need to do anything much beyond a simple 3-4 year BA to land a great job. Three of my husband's uncles were members of executive management in one of the big 5 Canadian banks with BAs. Not only did they get their jobs right out of university - they didn't even have to interview for them, worked there for 35-40 years and retired with massive capital gains on stock. Today you need multiple graduate degrees for even an interview, regardless of whether the job that you're performing actually requires you to have 8 years of university-level education. I haven't even touched income inequality or the effect that women entering the professional workforce in the 70s has had.

Now to be fair, the expectations and standard of living of today's millenials has also gone beyond that which would have been comparable in the 70s/80s. Our parents weren't picking up a $5 coffee on the way to work every morning or backpacking in Thailand while having little to no savings. These are trite examples, but it would be wrong not to acknowledge them.
anitram is offline  
Old 06-09-2020, 09:54 PM   #404
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,374
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Things I learned today

Jacobin is not referencing the thought process of someone named Jacob

Lance Armstrong was a real douche (I'm catching up on TV I missed over the past two weeks of the world changing)
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
Old 06-09-2020, 10:51 PM   #405
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
womanfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: moons of Zooropa
Posts: 7,253
Local Time: 04:39 AM
I’ve been enjoying Defending Jacobin on Apple TV
womanfish is offline  
Old 06-09-2020, 11:22 PM   #406
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
womanfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: moons of Zooropa
Posts: 7,253
Local Time: 04:39 AM
I just realized the hilariousness of Trump’s new campaign slogan -Transition to Greatness.

If you have to “transition to greatness” isn’t that a a clear message that your promise to “make America great again” never happened? That if you have “TTG” then things right now are not “great”?

I would hope that someone named Joe will point this out in a debate at some point.
womanfish is offline  
Old 06-09-2020, 11:24 PM   #407
Blue Crack Supplier
 
dazzledbylight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the sound dancing - w Bono & Edge :D
Posts: 34,832
Local Time: 11:39 PM
So did any one hear that (gak) Stephen Miller is writing drump's speech on racism. Just saw this on democratic undergeound a long time site that I just remembered about last Fri.
Anyway here's one members reply:
Quote:
4. The speech may delayed
Translation from the original Black Speech of Mordor may take some time.
Heh

-shudders- At the thought of SM writing it.
dazzledbylight is offline  
Old 06-09-2020, 11:53 PM   #408
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
womanfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: moons of Zooropa
Posts: 7,253
Local Time: 04:39 AM
Yes. Irony is dismembered, drawn and quartered, set on fire and thrown in a ditch.
womanfish is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 12:02 AM   #409
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
womanfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: moons of Zooropa
Posts: 7,253
Local Time: 04:39 AM
Just for a little context.

Trump won my state of TN in 2016 by 26 points.

Latest poll has Trump up 9.

He won Kentucky by 30 points

Latest poll has him up 17

Won Michigan by .3%
Latest poll Trump down 15 points.

Just interesting to see these sort of swings, even in red states.
womanfish is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 01:05 AM   #410
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,725
Local Time: 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
Things I learned today

Jacobin is not referencing the thought process of someone named Jacob
Yeah, thanks to everyone here who helped explain the Jacobin thing. First thing that came up when I searched the term was a particular kind of bird. But a little further digging did help give context to some of the discussion here, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
Lance Armstrong was a real douche (I'm catching up on TV I missed over the past two weeks of the world changing)
Ha, same. I was curious about the Lance thing, too, and I'm not even much of a sports person in general. But some of these sports documentaries and series can be kinda interesting. I also watched the recent season of "Dark Side of the Ring"-some fascinating stories in there, too.
Moonlit_Angel is online now  
Old 06-10-2020, 07:27 AM   #411
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Is the Lance doc good? I can’t stand him but will watch if it’s well done.
anitram is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 09:14 AM   #412
Refugee
 
monkeyskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,640
Local Time: 04:39 AM
It's ok. The stuff about his Mum is even more graphic than you'd expect. Thought it was weird how his Dad was interviewed whilst tubing but I guess it helps explain how Lance got so messed up in the first place.
monkeyskin is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 09:25 AM   #413
War Child
 
Jerry Dunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 949
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Young voters: Defund the Police. We need to greatly scale back their power and influence. Defunding them will allow you to reinvest that money into education and social services that are desperately needed after decades of austerity, while simultaneously demilitarizing the police.

Joe Biden:

Jerry Dunk is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 09:40 AM   #414
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,548
Local Time: 04:39 AM
I mean you leave out all the other proposals that’s mentioned in the piece. I have to imagine that he’s focusing on smaller police forces vs just giving NYPD another 300 million to their 6 billion budget

Defunding the police is going to backfire in many ways. It plays into Trump’s LAW AND ORDER narrative. Another person who has to be seeing $$$$ is Erik Prince

Don’t think that Trump / Barr / Prince won’t try to maximize the confusion of what’s being asked by making changes now versus a election night issue. They will play defund to mean completely eliminate police (which some people are calling for) and thus a gap exists where private forces will be called in to keep the peace.

Again when you have to add more explaining to your slogan / proposal you’ve lost the message.

Defund the police REALLY means....

You’ve lost already.

People don’t want to think. They don’t want details.
BEAL is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 09:41 AM   #415
War Child
 
Jerry Dunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 949
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i still don't get what you mean by a revolution. be specific. what will you do? how will you enact these reforms? how will you win over people who disagree with you?

i don't find your views revolutionary. i find them maybe leftist, not quite fringe, fueled by outrage and lacking in nuance, but nothing i've never heard of before. it could be your absolutist framing and Manichean outlook that makes these views, in your view, revolutionary.
Nuance often an excuse for mealy-mouthing on issues. It's the same way people glorify "compromise" even when they often admit one side is just holding the other side hostage, and with 40 years of the center being dragged to the side of the hostage takers. I think the greatest sign of maturity in my political views was realizing how often the middle ground was a place for people who wanted nothing more than to look like an "adult in the room."

The first step, as I said, is actually outright stating we want these reforms. The Democratic Party either doesn't want these reforms, or thinks it's responsible and wise to start from a compromise position. No compromise positions. We want to abolish the police. Drastically defunding the police will likely eventually be the compromise position. I understand that. I'm not a fool who thinks we're just going to get rid of police in my lifetime. But you need to start there and make the arguments for it. They're legitimate arguments, even if not necessarily totally feasible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
right. see? that's bullshit.
No, it's true. If you're a police officer, you're either a piece of shit, or covering up for pieces of shit. There are no good police officers. The nature of the position itself is an immoral one.

There are a lot of jobs that get into moral gray areas under capitalism. You can't fault most people for simply wanting to make money to survive. This is different. This makes you a tool for white supremacy, class warfare (on behalf of the wealthy), and valuing property over people. Law enforcement is immoral, and all cops are bastards.
Jerry Dunk is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 09:44 AM   #416
War Child
 
Jerry Dunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 949
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
I mean you leave out all the other proposals that’s mentioned in the piece. I have to imagine that he’s focusing on smaller police forces vs just giving NYPD another 300 million to their 6 billion budget

Defunding the police is going to backfire in many ways. It plays into Trump’s LAW AND ORDER narrative. Another person who has to be seeing $$$$ is Erik Prince

Don’t think that Trump / Barr / Prince won’t try to maximize the confusion of what’s being asked by making changes now versus a election night issue. They will play defund to mean completely eliminate police (which some people are calling for) and thus a gap exists where private forces will be called in to keep the peace.

Again when you have to add more explaining to your slogan / proposal you’ve lost the message.

Defund the police REALLY means....

You’ve lost already.

People don’t want to think. They don’t want details.
Defund the police means fund other critical things instead. The response to Trump's insane "Law and Order" thing has to be "look at what that law and order policy has led to," not "let's increase the law and order, but more responsibly than him!" It's only because people like Biden aren't willing to make the argument about what it will do, because he loves law enforcement and made the crime bill.

Studies have consistently shown that "reforming" the police in this manner only serves to increase militarization of the police. This policy fucking sucks ass and is exactly the opposite of what people are demanding right now. Once again, Joe Biden shows he is exactly the wrong person for this moment.
Jerry Dunk is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 10:01 AM   #417
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
I mean you leave out all the other proposals that’s mentioned in the piece. I have to imagine that he’s focusing on smaller police forces vs just giving NYPD another 300 million to their 6 billion budget
I agree with you, but then the rest of your post has to apply too - if he has to explain why he is giving MORE $ to already bloated police budgets, that in itself is a policy fail.

From my perspective, nobody seems to be crying out for more $ to flow to the police. If they need additional training or whatever he's proposing, that should come from the demilitarization and the savings to their budgets that will flow from that (not just the purchase of military equipment but the very costly ongoing maintenance of it).
anitram is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 10:13 AM   #418
More 5G Than Man
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 68,568
Local Time: 08:39 PM
Biden's pool of likely voters is deeply divided on even the most foundational issues and it's depressing. Just scanning through this thread, I can already see where a third party divide could easily hand Trump another 4 years.

Two party system is inherently flawed yadda yadda yadda
LemonMelon is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 10:39 AM   #419
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Hewson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Your own private Idaho
Posts: 32,191
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Dunk View Post
Young voters:
Don't you mean "young citizens", cause really how many are going to actually vote in November?
Hewson is offline  
Old 06-10-2020, 10:59 AM   #420
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,515
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Dunk View Post
No, it's true. If you're a police officer, you're either a piece of shit, or covering up for pieces of shit. There are no good police officers. The nature of the position itself is an immoral one.


no, it's not true. this is a stupid, childish thing to say and you should be ashamed of yourself.

if you would like to be personally introduced to dozens and dozens of homicide detectives who have solved uncountable murders and given families closure after having loved ones murdered, i'd be happy to send them along to you. you should probably also tell the families of victims that detective who solved said murder, or the PO who stopped a woman from getting beaten to death by her boyfriend that, really, this person is a piece of shit.

i'm not even going to add qualifiers. that would be mealy-mouthed.
__________________

Irvine511 is online now  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×