US Politics IV - Page 41 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-30-2017, 05:53 PM   #801
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,564
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Forget voter IDs for a second. Gerrymandering isn't why democrats are losing seats. Gerrymandering is why lots of republicans have seats in the first place. And, historically, both parties have been guilty of doing so.
__________________

LuckyNumber7 is online now  
Old 11-30-2017, 05:58 PM   #802
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,522
Local Time: 07:15 PM
US Politics IV

No one is blaming everything on one thing. The list of things I mentioned are one piece of a much larger puzzle. We could talk about many more things, such as the outrageous weight rural votes get compared to city votes. In 2012, the GOP controlled Congress by a significant margin, but the minority Democrats represented significantly more voters.

Don’t think that voter ID laws implemented in Obama’s second term by GOP governors didnt have an impact on the final vote tallies in PA and WI. “Conclusive proof” is obviously impossible to ascertain, but if it didn’t work the GOP wouldn’t spend as much time and effort as it does on these very things. And given that the election was decided by about as many voters as people who were with me in the DC and Philly stadiums this past summer seeing Joshua Tree, we know that it’s the little things can given an election away. In a divided country, every vote matters. How else did Hillary win by 3m votes and yet lose?
__________________

Irvine511 is online now  
Old 11-30-2017, 06:40 PM   #803
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 22,038
Local Time: 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
I would say a lot of fiscally conservative voters *love* to talk about the national debt.

Tons of people love to equate national debt like personal debt. As though a responsible country operates on a surplus. This couldn't be further from the truth. A surplus indicates room for growth was not capitalized on.

What's very frustrating is when someone discusses or sensationalizes the *size* of the debt. "President -so and so- TRIPLED the debt." Population does not behave statically or linearly. The same applies to inflation. And as the size of the actual economy grows, the volume of money grows. Of course, these three things are all intertwined. But the point is, 2017 magnitude of debt isn't comparable to 2007 magnitude of debt, and sure as hell isn't comparable to anything decades behind that.

As for this recent tax plan, I haven't read much about did. Did I hear Donnie Orange calling estate tax evil and damaging to many middle class Americans, though? Is eliminating the estate tax actually a thing on this tax plan?
what drives me nuts is when people claim that china can just call in their portion of the national debt at any time, like a buddy who you borrowed 100 bucks from who says he needs it back now rather than in a month because his bike needs to be fixed. as if china has this sword of damocles over america and could on a whim at any time just ask for their money back, at which point the united states would be immediately liable to hand trillions in cash over to china and the economy would be instantly and permanently wrecked.

my girlfriend's dad said this very thing to me this past weekend and i just had no idea where to even begin to try to correct him.
DaveC is online now  
Old 11-30-2017, 06:48 PM   #804
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 19,218
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick66 View Post
Not really. Democrats say this about every GOP tax bill. Every single one. it will destroy the middle class, help the rich and it will be kaput for the Republicans. They were saying the same things about the Reagan tax reforms, then the Bush Jr. tax cuts. Now, you can make the argument that GOP tax policy has hurt the economy, but they haven't exactly paid a big price electorally for it in the past.

The Republicans know what they're doing. The tax bill will give an immediate tax reduction to most Americans, and probably results in some sort of economic stimulus, however short term. The economy is already ticking along and will most likely continue to over the next year at least. In seven years or whatever period it is that the middle-class tax cuts are set to expire, who is going to vote against continuing them? Democrats? Remember, President Obama extended the Bush tax cuts. They were designed to make them difficult to get rid of. There's a reason Republicans REALLY want this to pass and Democrats really want it to fail.

As far as the national debt goes, most voters don't really care about that. It didn't stop Obama winning two terms and he added trillions to the national debt.

And there really aren't a whole lot of independents out there. Winning these days is mostly about parties exciting and turning out their base. Especially in midterms.
Has the GOP ever put together a tax bill that was NOT evil?
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 06:49 PM   #805
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 19,218
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
Forget voter IDs for a second. Gerrymandering isn't why democrats are losing seats. Gerrymandering is why lots of republicans have seats in the first place. And, historically, both parties have been guilty of doing so.
Speak for your own state.
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 06:52 PM   #806
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Rum Tum Tugger is a Curious Cat...
Posts: 6,663
Local Time: 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
Forget voter IDs for a second. Gerrymandering isn't why democrats are losing seats. Gerrymandering is why lots of republicans have seats in the first place.
That may be true now, but again as I pointed out, Republican won big in 2010 under the same district lines that the Dems won big in in 2006 (when they took control of Congress from the GOP). In other words, in 2010 Republicans took away a LOT of seats in districts Dems held in 2006 & 2008 under the 2000 district lines (and before the 2010 redistricting that everyone complains about).

And it's true that historically both parties have engaged in gerrymandering, but Republicans post 2010 census brought it to a whole new level in many states (not that Democrats wouldn't do the same in their position). The courts are reversing a lot of that right now, so for those who think the GOP's gains are all due to gerrymandering (they're not), that should be welcome news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
Don’t think that voter ID laws implemented in Obama’s second term by GOP governors didnt have an impact on the final vote tallies in PA and WI. “Conclusive proof” is obviously impossible to ascertain
Forget conclusive proof. There's no solid evidence from a reliable source at all that voter ID laws in those states swung an election. Just speculation. It's like Republicans speculating that voter fraud in swinging elections. We have to deal in facts, not speculation. I'd guess that her deplorables comment and bad campaign strategy cost her more votes in the rust belt than voter ID laws. That's speculation as well of course, though Occam's Razor and all that.

As an aside, I think Dems are fighting a losing battle on voter ID. They sound stupid saying people shouldn't have to show an ID to vote and acting like its the end of democracy, when in fact in most developed countries you have to show an ID to vote and their democracies survive just fine. Yes, for some people there are economic and other impediments to getting an ID. So IMO Dems would be better off working to get free photo ID's in the hands of everyone who needs one than fighting laws which most Americans support as basic common sense. Given the amount of money and resources the party spends on registering people, canvassing and getting them to the polls, I'd think making sure they have proper ID would be a no brainer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
How else did Hillary win by 3m votes and yet lose?
Clinton won the popular vote in an election where only electoral votes count. And she ran up that total in states like California where neither she nor Trump were competing. Of course, all those people are Americans and their votes count. But Trump won enough places where both parties were actually competing. In short, his strategy for winning the election they were actually competing in (i.e. for electoral votes) was superior. Clinton not being more competitive in Wisconsin, after that idiot Governor won his recall and re-election, was just stupid.

So yes, Clinton won the popular vote. So what. That's like an American football team complaining that they lost even though had more passing & running yards. Problem is both teams were playing for points, not yards.

You can argue that the electoral college is unfair and should be changed, and that's a legitimate gripe. But both Clinton and Trump knew that was the game going in, and if it were a popular election vote both would have had different strategies.
Nick66 is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 07:20 PM   #807
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,522
Local Time: 07:15 PM
We can Monday morning quarterback all we want, and Trump is President, but the fact that the winner of the popular vote has been not the president in 2 of the past 5 elections seems to me to indicate a structural problem. You can think Trump a brilliant strategist all you want, but *no one* though he was going to win, including himself.

Again, no one thinks it’s solely due to gerrymandering.

We could also talk about the vast right wing media structure that was built in the early-1990s, the rise of social media, and plain old misogyny. All of these would be correct, alongside Democratic failures and a general lack of talent. There’s plenty of blame to go around.
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 11-30-2017, 07:50 PM   #808
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Rum Tum Tugger is a Curious Cat...
Posts: 6,663
Local Time: 12:15 AM
I don't think Trump was a brilliant strategist. I just think his team had a better strategy than Clintons (which had an over reliance on analytics, much to Bill Clinton's chagrin).

I do think Trump, idiot though he may be, did have sort of an instinctual feel for who his voters were, and how to connect to them, that Clinton didn't.

I agree there's no one reason Clinton lost, there are lots of reasons, especially given it was an election she should have won. But that's something the party needs to figure out, because Trump can't win again (and as it stands now I think he could).
Nick66 is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 07:56 PM   #809
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 22,038
Local Time: 06:15 PM
i sometimes wonder what the reaction would have been like from the republican party if the clintons were in the white house when this current tide of sexual allegations and revelations started gaining steam.
DaveC is online now  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:03 PM   #810
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick66 View Post

As an aside, I think Dems are fighting a losing battle on voter ID. They sound stupid saying people shouldn't have to show an ID to vote and acting like its the end of democracy, when in fact in most developed countries you have to show an ID to vote and their democracies survive just fine.
I think you're misrepresenting what their views are. I don't believe that the vast majority of state-wide Democratic efforts are related to the argument that you "shouldn't have to show" an ID but rather that it is factually proven that the poor do not have the same access to the voter ID cards. And if the Republicans hold most state legislatures (as they do), then how do you propose passing free voter ID laws? The other thing is that states have purposely discriminatory laws regarding which form of photo ID is accepted. For example, in Texas, you can vote with your gun permit but not with your university photo ID. That is a very clear example of purposeful discrimination by the Republicans. And that is just one.
anitram is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:57 PM   #811
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,427
Local Time: 06:15 PM
Sometimes I wonder what the Republicans would be doing if the Clintons were in office and they made near daily racist remarks, didn't fill thousands of important positions in government, had a campaign manager indicted, replaced a dozen cabinet members in the first year and had a national intelligence advisor end up being an agent of a foreign power.

Nahhh just kidding. They'd have impeached her by now.
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:58 PM   #812
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
Sometimes I wonder what the Republicans would be doing if the Clintons were in office and they made near daily racist remarks, didn't fill thousands of important positions in government, had a campaign manager indicted, replaced a dozen cabinet members in the first year and had a national intelligence advisor end up being an agent of a foreign power.

Nahhh just kidding. They'd have impeached her by now.
We know what they were doing for the entire 8 years of an intelligent, measured and hard working presidency so....
anitram is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 08:59 PM   #813
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,170
Local Time: 07:15 PM
John McCain=total sellout on tax plan
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 09:01 PM   #814
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,728
Local Time: 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
Sometimes I wonder what the Republicans would be doing if the Clintons were in office and they made near daily racist remarks, didn't fill thousands of important positions in government, had a campaign manager indicted, replaced a dozen cabinet members in the first year and had a national intelligence advisor end up being an agent of a foreign power.

Nahhh just kidding. They'd have impeached her by now.
Exactly. That's what drives me nuts, too. I truly don't understand this insane hold Trump seems to have over other politicians, to where they're letting him slide with things that any other politician would get in trouble for. What the hell is it about him?
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:13 PM   #815
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,370
Local Time: 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
John McCain=total sellout on tax plan
People really need to stop expecting McCain to be any good.
Vlad n U 2 is offline  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:17 PM   #816
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,564
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
People really need to stop expecting McCain to be any good.


Agreed. Enough of this "oh he's a good person." Sure, he has redeeming qualities about him. Hes not Donald Trump. I'm much happier with his brand of republican being the face. He's still a warmongerer and all around has policies I disagree with.
LuckyNumber7 is online now  
Old 12-01-2017, 05:36 AM   #817
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Rum Tum Tugger is a Curious Cat...
Posts: 6,663
Local Time: 12:15 AM
US Politics IV

Well, can't he have policies you disagree with and still be a good person?
Nick66 is offline  
Old 12-01-2017, 07:19 AM   #818
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,170
Local Time: 07:15 PM
John McCain took a stance on health care and I actually called his office to thank him for that. This tax plan will decimate health care, so it doesn't even make any sense from that point of view. They're also going after SS and Medicare next, no doubt about that.

I admire John McCain so much for his service to this country. Trump was despicable for what he said about him. I just lose all respect for him politically because what he's doing is hypocritical and makes no sense.
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 12-01-2017, 07:42 AM   #819
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,551
Local Time: 11:15 PM
I agree. He took a stand against healthcare but this tax bill affects healthcare too.

And i see the GOP excuse for Trump is “he doesn’t know what he’s doing” in regards to possible obstruction of justice.
BEAL is offline  
Old 12-01-2017, 08:49 AM   #820
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
I just lose all respect for him politically because what he's doing is hypocritical and makes no sense.
I think it just speaks to Republican priorities in general - padding the pocketbooks of the ultra wealthy. You have a few moderates who may put up a fight on single issues like healthcare, especially if they are from vulnerable districts/states, but none of them are going to derail something like this tax plan.

Middle and lower income Americans who continue to vote for these people because they have bought into trickle down economics are just plain old idiots. My husband's (international) bank has already done a share buyback, and surely will do another and all of his RSUs and stock options just keep growing nicely. So thanks economically anxious coal miner in Pennsylvania - you sure showed us by voting for Trump.
__________________

anitram is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×