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Old 02-25-2013, 04:31 PM   #161
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[QUOTE=INDY500;7636080]
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
You're the one who did that by mentioning the countries and cultures who are not prosperous. And when it was pointed out how xenophobic it was, you backpedaled and said it was all about capitalism and democracy, not race or religion.[uote]

I didn't back pedal; capitalism and democracy are macro values. Countries are poor not because of the color of their skin or theology but because they don't live under a value system that leads to free markets, rule of law, private property rights, human rights or representational government.
I really don't understand how capitalism has become some form of moral value, it can be good and bad but it is not the be all and end all of all human existence. I mean many economies throughout the course of human history have made advances and flourished without capitalism, Rome and it's slave/war economy, some nations did well under feudalism. Is capitalism and representative democracy really the best we can do? INDY you may say countries are not poor because of their colour or theology but you continue to imply that they should share your exact values, that of a white male Christian in order to be a success.

I also really don't get why you keep bashing Europe since most major European leaders do in general share your thoughts on free markets in general, apart from say Hollande, but Sarkozy before was pretty free market. The idea that the free market can do no wrong is just so blatantly absurd.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:51 PM   #162
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Maybe Indy is on to something

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

 
Plato ~ 360 BC

Or maybe he should stop perpetuating age old fallacies and focus his imagination on something more productive
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:54 PM   #163
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You would chatter in place of exercise too if your choices were running around Upper Darby in a trash bag or dirty dancing with Jennifer Lawrence.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:57 PM   #164
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I nearly didn't understand that, but finally pieced it together from the few clips I've seen.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:15 PM   #165
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I didn't back pedal; capitalism and democracy are macro values. Countries are poor not because of the color of their skin or theology but because they don't live under a value system that leads to free markets, rule of law, private property rights, human rights or representational government.


or perhaps because they were just poor?

the whole world only spins forward.

The River of Myths by Hans Rosling | #BillsLetter - YouTube

watch the video. do you think the Ethiopian example comes from Ethiopians having a change of heart and adopting different values, or because they became less poor?
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:49 PM   #166
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I really don't understand how capitalism has become some form of moral value, it can be good and bad but it is not the be all and end all of all human existence.
Sure, you're right, capitalism is just a word as is justice or democracy or science for that matter. They must be supported by personal values and ethics. Again, that's why the Founders to a man stressed that our Constitution and form of government could only function within a society where marriage, religion, industriousness and honesty were valued and practiced. I ask you, are those pillars strengthening or weakening?
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:52 PM   #167
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Weakening in the Red states, strengthening in the blues.

But what does what you've convinced yourself a few men said 230+ years ago have to do with anything?

Sounds like someone's worshipping some false idols.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:59 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
marriage, religion, industriousness and honesty were valued and practiced. I ask you, are those pillars strengthening or weakening?
neutral
weakening on a large scale, possibly strengthening on the personal (doesn't make it real though)
strengthening
strengthening


edit: after reading Irvine's reply, I might have misinterpreted the question (if you add the words "to a nation" after the sentence, you'll see how I read it). I'll leave my answers up anyway
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:41 PM   #169
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INDY, let me just say that I hate your signature, since you're not going to reply to my post. The idea that valuing equality means spitting on liberty is such a perfect example of your ass-backwards view of the people you disagree with so fervently. It's really difficult to maintain an argument when you don't bother trying to understand where we are coming from.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:52 PM   #170
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And you wonder how I can state, regrettably, with such certitude that this country will be in a worse place 4 years from now... Look who's in the bridge charting the course !!

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Old 03-01-2013, 07:52 PM   #171
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Great post! #terrific!
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:17 PM   #172
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INDY, let me just say that I hate your signature, since you're not going to reply to my post. The idea that valuing equality means spitting on liberty is such a perfect example of your ass-backwards view of the people you disagree with so fervently. It's really difficult to maintain an argument when you don't bother trying to understand where we are coming from.
You hate my signature? Odd coming from someone named PhilsFan whose team has in its own logo the, wait for it... Liberty Bell (note the name).



In fact, how many buildings in Philadelphia have the name Liberty in them compared to Equality? You get the point. Now I'm more than happy to respond because your "hate" arises, I think, because we understand and strive for a different definition of equality.

Equality--as understood when the Liberty bell was still being rung--was that of a natural (or God given) right to live freely under self-government, to acquire and keep property (including wages) gained through one's own labor and enterprise and to be treated without prejudice before the law. That all men are created equal before the law and before God but that inequality is the natural state of man because each individual is born with unique talents and strengths and therefore some will prosper or succeed more than others. We have the right "to pursue happiness," not a right to happiness.

These are high ideals but we are mere men so grave injustices and base prejudices have, are and will always exist. The promise of the Constitution, the blindfolded Lady Justice and of natural law demands redress in these cases but when taken too far you have the equality of the Left.

The equality of the Left is not that of equality of opportunity but of equality of economic and social outcomes. The Left envisions an egalitarian society with an ever growing government leveling the playing field through "social justice" and redistribution schemes, i.e., authoritarian collectivism. This form of equality, over time, creates a culture of uniformity and dependence and crushes individual initiative, self-reliance, risk-taking and independence that can only thrive when men live free. Extreme example, North Korea. Now that's a country where equality reigns.

I should also note one way in which liberty or freedom is defined differently. The freedom of the founders was the "freedom from harassment." This is enumerated in the negative rights of the first ten amendments. The Left from FDR to present pushes "freedom from want" through the Welfare State. This was first enumerated in FDR's Second Bill of Rights if you doubt me.

In short, you can't be for; big government, a progressive tax-code, affirmative action, minimum and equal wage laws, quotas, positive rights, etc without realizing they come at a cost... that of liberty.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:35 PM   #173
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Extreme example, North Korea. Now that's a country where equality reigns.
Still a class society, I don't see how you found any equality there.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:43 PM   #174
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I feel like the old "not adam and steve" line fits on Indy's sig right after the statue of liberty one.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:11 PM   #175
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I feel like the old "not adam and steve" line fits on Indy's sig right after the statue of liberty one.
I feel the Statue of Liberty one fits the same way.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:22 PM   #176
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:23 PM   #177
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Now that the Dow is at record highs and the unemployment rate is the lowest it's been in 4 years, are we going to chalk that up to Obama at all? Did you read the details of the employment report? More people are working more hours at higher wages. Additionally, anyone following the housing market knows that we are also seeing increased housing prices in the US. Conclusion? The labour market is improving and the quality of economic growth is improving as well.

As a Canadian, I'm dumping my excess Cdn currency for the US dollar.

Again, will INDY credit the President with any of this? Doubtful.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:28 PM   #178
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True, these are good signs.

But cuts as a result of the sequester could bring more unemployment. Not that I'm being a Debbie Downer, but I'm not too excited yet.

But I also don't think it spells the end of America.
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:21 PM   #179
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yes, America and Americans are exceptional, even with the cards stacked against us
we rise
imagine how much higher, with good leadership,

just sayin'
keep buyin' dollars



Quote:
The U.S. unemployment rate is down, but that is because many Americans have given up looking for a job.
the Democratic base is expanding, ( that 47% is a grower )
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:26 PM   #180
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And you wonder how I can state, regrettably, with such certitude that this country will be in a worse place 4 years from now... Look who's in the bridge charting the course !!

you are right, not all that much to look at

but in 2014, we can upgrade the one on the end.
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